My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

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My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by Gwion » 07 Nov 2014, 1:43 pm

So, a few weeks ago i went and stocked up with powder. I got some BM 8208 for high velocity loads (been using BM II until now) and some Trail Boss for reduced loads in the 223rem.

The reason i am trying Trail Boss is in an attempt to emulate somewhere between 22wrm and 17hmr performance on light bodied vermin. Sometimes the 22lr is too light with unreliable terminal performance unless it's a good head shot but on the other hand, the 223 with 50gm Vmax is just over kill and scares everything else away and makes mince meat of the target. This is for pest control, so quick shooting for multiple kills is the idea. Plus, i don't want to buy a bigger rimfire or pay for the ammo. Cheaper for me to reload my 223rem.

This morning conditions were good and i was too broke to take the boat out fishing, so i did a quick work up of a load in 223rem with Trail Boss and a Nosler Varmegeddon 40gr bullet. I had previously followed instructions and filled a case with powder 5 times then tipped into the scales pan and weighed. I then got the average for a max charge (8.66gn was the av.) and took 70% of that as a base load. I shot a couple of these the other week with no spectacular results, just to make sure i was on track.

So, having read in other places that some where near max case capacity often gives good results in 223 with TB, i worked up with 3 shot groups in 0.3gn increments from the 7.5gn mark up to 8.7gn. After a pretty rushed firing test with less than optimal support/shooting rest, i decided to load up a few more in 8.4gn. I loaded the 7 primed cases i had left and improved my test rest situation a little.

The first shot was about dead on for elevation as to my scope setting but about 1/2" right. The next 6 shots where on the same windage but all about 1/2-3/4 inch higher than the first and all within 1/2" of each other; 3 of them were all through the same hole. All the shooting was at 50m. I made the scope adjustments to bring the rifle to a 50m zero.

So, after a very brief development, i have a low/mild velocity 223 round that shoots at around the 1 moa mark @ 50m. I loaded up another 36 rounds. 3 for shooting at 25m and 3 for shooting at 100m to figure out drops/holds at those ranges and 30 for testing terminal performance on vermin over the next few nights. If all goes well with the terminal testing, i'll tweak the load a little with more development to try getting the groups to tighten up a touch.

Been meaning to try this all year, so glad i finally got around to it.

Cheers.
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by bigfellascott » 07 Nov 2014, 2:57 pm

It sounds interesting G, I look forward to hearing how it all goes mate. Hopefully it will do the job on the Melons alright.
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by tom604 » 07 Nov 2014, 3:30 pm

so whats the sound like?, how much quieter?
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by Gwion » 07 Nov 2014, 3:53 pm

tom604 wrote:so whats the sound like?, how much quieter?


Very quiet. Hard to say with out a direct comparison but not that much louder than a 22lr. Maybe as loud as a 17hmr.

I shot a few without ear muff (wouldn't with 223 normally). I was shooting next to a tin shed and it was loud enough to think "i should put the ear muffs on" after the first 3 or 4 but once i did, i could hardly hear it at all!

It certainly doesn't BOOM through the hills like the 223 does normally.
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by Oldbloke » 07 Nov 2014, 5:16 pm

Its great what can be achieved with reloading. I used to do the same with 3006 casts. Good fun. I have been thinking along the same line and have been collecting data along these line. I had a look and the info I have says 8.5 grains does 1974 fps with a 40 gr projectile. Just no info on where that come from. I might be doing the same myself in a few months if I can find the time.. The only real draw back is obviously the need to change zero between them and full loads. Have fun plugging pests. :lol:
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by Gwion » 08 Nov 2014, 8:33 am

Cheers Oldbloke. An online friend ran the data from that load through a program that indicates around 2170fps.

I was aiming/hoping for around 2200fps from a 40gn bullet, so it seems to have worked out ok. Once i figure out the drops, plugging them pesky pests out to 120 odd meters should be very doable with that load at those speeds with better terminal performance than the hollow point lead bullet. A bit of testing will soon say if it's a goer or not.

Cheers.
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by Gwion » 08 Nov 2014, 9:41 am

So, after running the figures through a ballistics calc, there should be around 0.5" between 30m & 100m:

0.4" 30m
0.2" 40m
0.0" 50/60/70m
0.1" 80m
0.3" 90m
0.5" 100m

Starts dropping pretty quick after that.

If this proves out in testing then it will all work well, i believe.

As for changing zero on the scope. The changes were 4 click in elevation and 3 clicks in windage from my other load shooting 50gn ballistic tips at around 3300fps. This one zeroed dead on at 50m and the faster load zeroed 0.7" high at 100m.

I have noted the zero setting on my box of hand loads and will do the same when i rework my fast load in BM 8208.

Given that standar speeds for 22wrm are around 2000fps and 17hmr are around 2500fps or a bit faster, this load seems to be sitting ok between the two if the 2170fps calc is close to true.

I'll update when i manage some terminal testing.
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by Oldbloke » 08 Nov 2014, 7:51 pm

Mmm, im impressed, good result i dont know why this isnt done more often
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by sha » 11 Nov 2014, 1:29 pm

Gwion wrote:It certainly doesn't BOOM through the hills like the 223 does normally.


Do you know what kind of velocity you're getting. Even a guesstimate?

Subsonic? No ballistic crack?


Edit: Sorry, nevemind. Hadn't read your later reply with the 2,170 fps when I asked.
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by Triang » 11 Nov 2014, 1:32 pm

Gwion wrote:So, after a very brief development, i have a low/mild velocity 223 round that shoots at around the 1 moa mark @ 50m.


With a bit of 0.1 grain tuning you can probably knock a 1/4 or 1/2 off that too.
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by Gwion » 12 Nov 2014, 2:28 pm

Well. Back to the drawing board.

Having just shot some testing rounds, results were fairly wild. To be fair, i need to set up on my bench/range to get true accuracy indication. This time i just used a bag prone in various spots with target paced out to get some drop data and indication of how it will shoot in the field with most stable field positions. My shooting wasn't the best but this is real world testing not perfect world testing.

I think the 2170 calc may be off or the results from the Vortex Ballistic Calc may have been off for drops.
The zero was pretty well on elevation at 25m, 50m & 75m (ie: shooting pretty flat from 25-75, roughly as predicted for that velocity) but at 100m the drop was 2.3", which is the first stadia on my BDC reticle. Maybe i stepped out a bit further than 100m.

The good news is that verticle dispersion was pretty good, with only 4 shots out of 27 total being much more than a caliber width below the aim point at all ranges. This eases my mind regarding some things i've read about Trail Boss delivering varied velocity. I was pretty careful with my charge weights.

Unfortunately, horizontal dispersion was all over the shop. @ 25m = 0.56", 50m = 0.25", 75m = 1.6" & 100m = 0.82".

Any hints or ideas (other than set up better and shoot straighter) that could be causing such horizontal dispersion?
Wind isn't too bad at all today, so i don't think it's all to do with that.

Anyway, i'll load some more and try again off the bench in the paddock to see if it is the round or my shooting position causing the spread. I can generally pull off 0.7-0.5" @ 100m off that bench with my 50gn BM2 load so i should be able to iron out if it's my shooting today or the load.

Just thought i'd keep you updated.

Cheers
Last edited by Gwion on 12 Nov 2014, 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by Westy » 12 Nov 2014, 6:42 pm

We were using trail boss in a 300AAC and found after 50m the 110grn pills were starting to tumble!!!Might be the answer to your horizontal dispersion!!! are the hole in your targets at 100 ROUND or a little outta round??? Might be the problem right there!!!! What weight pills are you using????
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by Gwion » 12 Nov 2014, 11:38 pm

All holes perfectly round, Westy.

I'll try the next lot out past 120m and see if there's any sign of tumbling. If so, instability may be part of the problem.

Maybe my rifle just doesn't like 40gn bullets!??! If so, i would have thought there would have been more of a scatter gun effect rather than dispersion only on the horizontal?

I'll also try the bullets with BM2 and see what results i get with mid range charges.

Cheers.

PS/edit> Howa Varmint 223 1:12 twist
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by Herdsman » 14 Nov 2014, 9:54 am

Gwion wrote:Unfortunately, horizontal dispersion was all over the shop. @ 25m = 0.56", 50m = 0.25", 75m = 1.6" & 100m = 0.82".

Any hints or ideas (other than set up better and shoot straighter) that could be causing such horizontal dispersion?


Gwion wrote:i would have thought there would have been more of a scatter gun effect rather than dispersion only on the horizontal?


Some thoughts of mine...

If you were shooting in a bit of a rush eye/scope alignment could be playing a part. Shooting off a rest your elevation is reasonably controlled by the rest which helps control vertical stringing but doesn't stop you looking off-centre horizontally and sending them out slightly left or right.

Possibility?

The other would be rear bag alignment. I've found (just my experience) if you have the rear bag off centre and the butt is forcibly being held to the side to some extent, when firing you get flicked to the side a little against that.

2c. Hope it helps something.
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by Westy » 14 Nov 2014, 1:39 pm

Never thought of the rear bag issue but it makes great sense a little like have wrist torque?

Great point might keep that one in mind from now on!

Thanks.
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by Gwion » 14 Nov 2014, 2:44 pm

Thanks Herdsman. I think you may have hit the nail on the head re: scope alignment and rear bag placement. I'll bear that in mind as i do more testing. Bit windy and rainy for the next few days, so hopefully next week i'll get a bit more done.

After playing with the Vortex ballistics calc to make the drops fit from that test session, it looks like Oldbloke may have been closer with his 1970fps/ish mark than the 2170odd mark.

Either way, i did a little vermin shooting with it and the terminal damage is far more effective than a hollow point 22lr, so once i get the drops figured for various ranges, it should be a goer. Quieter and cheaper to load than the BM2 load, which is over kill for the target species anyway. The TB load is a little more than 1/3 of the charge of the BM2 load and the TB is cheaper by weight.

Cheers.
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by Herdsman » 15 Nov 2014, 10:51 am

No worries guys.

Hopefully that's the solution for you Gwion.
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by Zilla » 15 Nov 2014, 10:54 am

Gwion wrote:Either way, i did a little vermin shooting with it and the terminal damage is far more effective than a hollow point 22lr, so once i get the drops figured for various ranges, it should be a goer.


Yes indeed, the .223 is a lot more cartridge than a .22lr

As Roy Weatherby would say, velocity kills.
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by Gwion » 15 Nov 2014, 12:07 pm

Just been playing with another ballistics calc and the closest i can get the charts to match my test results is around 1800fps.

Dunno how the QuickLoad predictions were so far out.

1800fps is only 150 odd fps faster than a hyper velocity 22lr and about the same as a 40gn 22mag round but loaded with highly frangible varmint type bullet, which makes all the difference in the world to terminal performance.

Link to ballistics chart below:

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/balli ... t=2f957ad5
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by Pom » 17 Nov 2014, 7:45 am

You could always spend a few $$ on a cheap chrono if you really wanna have it as accurate as possible.

Always a little wiggle room doing the tables without them otherwise. Close though though if you're not fussed.
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by Gwion » 17 Nov 2014, 7:29 pm

True, Pom. A chrono is on the long list of things i need to buy when i can spare the cash.

Cheers
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by Korkt » 18 Nov 2014, 8:06 am

Zilla wrote:As Roy Weatherby would say, velocity kills.


A mate of mines just picked up a .257 Weatherby Magnum as a small game rifle.

Taking her out for a spin this weekend if the weather holds.
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by FuzzyM » 11 Feb 2015, 10:20 am

Very interesting Gwion!
Just what I needed last night, more punch than the .22LR for foxes, without letting off a full power .223 and scaring the s**t out of every animal in the valley.

I do have access to a .22 MAG but I don't really like the way the particular firearm handles.

Would be good to do a comparison of the .22LR VS .22MAG VS .223 Trailboss VS .223 Full Power

Anyone have some ballistics gel taking up room? :lol:

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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by FuzzyM » 11 Feb 2015, 10:25 am

Forgot what I actually meant to ask!
What rifle are you shooting these with Gwion?
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by Gwion » 15 Feb 2015, 5:00 pm

Fuzzy, shooting them with a Howa 18" heavy barrel. Need to spend a bit more time figuring out drops at various ranges. Inside 70m it's an easy bang flop but beyond that they drop quick. Main advantage is with a 40gn varmint style bullet there is no issue with terminal performance. 2" exit hole through chest on the vermin I shoot.
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by pmomd » 17 Feb 2015, 8:40 pm

FuzzyM wrote:Forgot what I actually meant to ask!


Forum comes before you get on the booze :lol:
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by Gwion » 17 Dec 2015, 3:10 pm

Update:

Did another load development with the TrailBoss yesterday, seeing the barrel has been rebuilt into the Zastava M85.

Ended up with 8.9gn of TrailBoss behind the 40gn VarmintR. Group at 100m was tighter than groups at 50m. I'm sure that's just me shooting. Best group was 2/3", worst was 1.5".

Sighted in dead on @ 50m and got 2.25" drop at 100m. Plugging some guestimates into JBM, i got approximately 2000fps. Faster than 22mag, slower than a Hornet & about the same amount of BANG as the 22Mag.

I allow a kill zone of about 2" on the wallabies (yes i have the right permits & licences), which gives me a MBR out to 140m, if i sight in at 120m. I don't like that, so have set it at 100m and i should be MBR of about 120m. Between 120-150, i'll be good with the 1st SubTension on the BDC, 2nd ST at around 170 and 3rd ST at 200; but i wont really shoot it out past about 140m.

Now i just need to rework my Full Velocity load, it's not being nice to me with groups of about 1.5" or more at 100m. I had to seat them a little deeper than my test rounds (i was single feeding about 5thou off the lands) as they were hanging up in the mag; as a result, what was shooting about 2/3" @ 100m has opened right up. Have to tweak the charge for the new seating depth.....

Oh the joys!
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by Ed9362 » 17 Dec 2015, 4:28 pm

I did some loads for my 243 a few years back, 14gns of trail boss behind the 58gn Zmax yielded 2300 FPS and quite good accuracy. The main issue was it still wasn't very quiet. It was much quitter than a full 243 but not by as much as I had hoped. I was hoping to match the 22 hornet performance but never quite got there
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by brett1868 » 18 Dec 2015, 3:27 pm

Since the .257 Weatherby has been mentioned I'll share a load...

Sierra #1628 100Gr HPBT, CCI 250 Primer, 68Gr of AR2213SC seated to an OAL of 2.754" (0.001 off the rifling) using the #25 insert in the Hornady Comparator. Shoots 1/4MOA @100 with a measured 3328fps at the muzzle and absolutely devastates anything it hits. This is my favourite 100gr load for the Weatherby, I have 2 others for Hornady 75 & 117gr projectiles that deliver results but the Sierra's are easier to come by and a fraction cheaper.
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Re: My first Trail Boss Loads for 223rem

Post by Strikey » 18 Dec 2015, 8:17 pm

brett1868 wrote:Since the .257 Weatherby has been mentioned I'll share a load...

Sierra #1628 100Gr HPBT, CCI 250 Primer, 68Gr of AR2213SC seated to an OAL of 2.754" (0.001 off the rifling) using the #25 insert in the Hornady Comparator. Shoots 1/4MOA @100 with a measured 3328fps at the muzzle and absolutely devastates anything it hits. This is my favourite 100gr load for the Weatherby, I have 2 others for Hornady 75 & 117gr projectiles that deliver results but the Sierra's are easier to come by and a fraction cheaper.



If this is a pissing contest, I will join in, my 250AI loaded with a good charge of AR2209, CCI BR2 primers will push Berger 115grn VLD's seated 20 thou off the lands at around 3000-3100fps into tiny one hole groups at 100yds all day, ;)
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