Starting form scratch

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

Starting form scratch

Post by cruze82 » 19 Nov 2014, 9:44 pm

ok guys I have a question that's been bugging me

Iv just received a rifle back from the gunsmith today and need so start from scratch with load development

some background on the rifle
rem 700 sps varmint
in AI stock
usual load before gunsmith work
Brass- Lapua
Primer -CCI BR2
Powder-ADI 2208 46 grains
Projectile-sierra 168g BTHP
COAL 2.810
rifle shoots .6moa with this recipe 4 shot group @100m

Why this rifle went into the gunsmith was in the run in process I noticed the feed ramp was leaving chatter marks in the projectile so I wanted the feed ramp polished and the chamber mouth chamfered and I thought while it was in there I might as well get the chamber re-cut so I could get a projectile to come close to touching the lands as the standard chamber had a really long thought being a varmint rifle.

The chamber was re-cut with a mansen M-852 reamer new target crown cut and tidy up feed ramp plus some other little bits done

My question is with the new load development where should I start the bullet of the lands?
im planning on using the following ingredients

Brass- Lapua
Primer -CCI BR2
Powder-ADI 2208
Projectile-Berger 175g long range boat tail
loads will be worked up in .3grain increments until a accuracy node is found and desired velocity is found
These rounds don't have to feed through a mag!
so where to start with seating depth?
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Re: Starting form scratch

Post by COLLECTOR 1 » 20 Nov 2014, 9:26 pm

How you going.....

A real short cut to your problem....

Load up a couple of dummy rounds, no primer, no powder....try and set them to factory length, and "smoke" the projectile, cigarette lighter will do the trick, make them nice and dark.

Load the 'smoked" dummy round into the firearm, and what you are looking for is the faintest of "land" marks on the projectile...No marks, the bullet is seated to deep into the case, heavy marks and the bullet is seated to far out and is being forced into the lands. Its the trick the best of the bench rest shooters use....

Once you have that "faintest" of marks on the projectile, set your die solid as a rock, ....no more problems.

Hope that helps.

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Re: Starting form scratch

Post by cruze82 » 20 Nov 2014, 9:57 pm

Thanks collector but I have the CBTO (cartridge base to ogive) measurement where the bullet will touch the lands by using a OAL gauge and bullet comparator

The thing I am unsure of is for initial load development (incremental powder charges) to find desired velocity and accuracy node is should I seat all rounds 0.010 back of the lands to start?

Or should I seat them jammed in the lands so as any future fine tuning seating deeper only results in lower pressure not higher?

I have searched the net but cant seem to find a definitive answer any help would be much appreciated guys.
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Re: Starting form scratch

Post by 1290 » 21 Nov 2014, 9:19 am

The 852 is a cartridge spec, not a chamber spec per se, do you mean a Palma chamber??

Did you have the barrel set back? to cut a tighter the tighter match neck or did the smith just send the reamer down as is, if so the only effect would be to extend the freebore by about a 'thou (I believe) and flatten out the leade by 15 minutes oA...
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Re: Starting form scratch

Post by cruze82 » 21 Nov 2014, 11:15 am

1290 the barrel was set back and the Manson m-852 reamer was used to re chamber to take out the free bore
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Re: Starting form scratch

Post by squirrelhunter » 28 Nov 2014, 1:16 pm

cruze82 wrote:Why this rifle went into the gunsmith was in the run in process I noticed the feed ramp was leaving chatter marks in the projectile so I wanted the feed ramp polished and the chamber mouth chamfered


I get this on my Ruger sometimes.

Nothing I can really see inside, no obvious burs or edges likely to be the problem. Was there a clear culprit for causing the chatter marks on yours or just some subtle bump in the ramp?
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Re: Starting form scratch

Post by Tiiger » 28 Nov 2014, 2:06 pm

cruze82 wrote:The thing I am unsure of is for initial load development (incremental powder charges) to find desired velocity and accuracy node is should I seat all rounds 0.010 back of the lands to start?

Or should I seat them jammed in the lands so as any future fine tuning seating deeper only results in lower pressure not higher?

I have searched the net but cant seem to find a definitive answer any help would be much appreciated guys.


A definitive answer... Same old in shooting where everyone has an opinion proven to them, but not much anywhere. I don't think anyone can give you a "This is best because of unquestionable proof shown here".

For what it's worth, my 2c are:

As you obviously know seating 'just off the lands' is widely found to give the best result. Let's call it 0.010 like you said.

Given that's most likely to give the best result - or close to it - and remove 1 factor in inaccuracy, I always seat mine the 0.010 off and focus on power charges.

Of course it's not a 100% guarantee that it will be best, but I'd calling it playing the odds.

Once you've found the best charge revisit the seating depth as required.

Setting the depth lower at the initial stage seems a bit like inviting it to be less accurate which isn't going to help.

Just my humble opinion.
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Re: Starting form scratch

Post by Carter » 28 Nov 2014, 2:08 pm

cruze82 wrote:Primer - CCI BR2


Can I ask what, if any, other primers you tried before setting on the BR2?

They seem to be getting good feedback all round. Thinking about trying them in my next workup.

Did you find a benefit with them over others or went straight to them because you expected them to be good?
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Re: Starting form scratch

Post by cruze82 » 02 Dec 2014, 9:24 pm

Tiiger wrote:
cruze82 wrote:The thing I am unsure of is for initial load development (incremental powder charges) to find desired velocity and accuracy node is should I seat all rounds 0.010 back of the lands to start?

Or should I seat them jammed in the lands so as any future fine tuning seating deeper only results in lower pressure not higher?

I have searched the net but cant seem to find a definitive answer any help would be much appreciated guys.


A definitive answer... Same old in shooting where everyone has an opinion proven to them, but not much anywhere. I don't think anyone can give you a "This is best because of unquestionable proof shown here".

For what it's worth, my 2c are:

As you obviously know seating 'just off the lands' is widely found to give the best result. Let's call it 0.010 like you said.

Given that's most likely to give the best result - or close to it - and remove 1 factor in inaccuracy, I always seat mine the 0.010 off and focus on power charges.

Of course it's not a 100% guarantee that it will be best, but I'd calling it playing the odds.

Once you've found the best charge revisit the seating depth as required.

Setting the depth lower at the initial stage seems a bit like inviting it to be less accurate which isn't going to help.

Just my humble opinion.



Thanks Tiiger for the info this topic sat stale with no answers for awhile :cry:

I set up the load work up on the weekend and worked through all the different powder charges and got some good results
I wanted to try out my new Magnetospeed v3 so I loaded twice the amount of rounds needed so I could test if it had any POI change or any change in group size when using it

The results for the Magnetospeed were there was NO POI change or change in group size despite what the LGS had told me when I was sold the item

And as for the initial load development 46 grains of 2208 behind a Berger 175g BT traveling at 2804 fps with a SD of 2.4 produced these results
3 shot group at 100m


Its a fairly hot load but there were only small pressure signs (primer cratering and faint ejector mark)
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Re: Starting form scratch

Post by bigfellascott » 03 Dec 2014, 5:59 am

So how did you find the Magnaspeed, easy to set up and use?
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Re: Starting form scratch

Post by Tiiger » 03 Dec 2014, 12:44 pm

cruze82 wrote:Thanks Tiiger for the info this topic sat stale with no answers for awhile :cry:


Yeah it happens.

Post get bumped back a few pages by other topics and get lost. This was a few back when I stumbled across it but happy to provide some input :)

Fine shooting there too.
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Re: Starting form scratch

Post by Korkt » 03 Dec 2014, 12:46 pm

cruze82 wrote:The results for the Magnetospeed were there was NO POI change or change in group size despite what the LGS had told me when I was sold the item


I think that's the default position these days. Touch anything and add the disclaimer that the POI will change... Whether they have tried or not.
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Re: Starting form scratch

Post by squirrelhunter » 03 Dec 2014, 12:47 pm

Sorry to give myself a bump here...

Cruze, any ideas on my question about the chattering above?

Or anyone else with ideas welcome too :)
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Re: Starting form scratch

Post by cruze82 » 03 Dec 2014, 1:38 pm

squirrelhunter wrote:Sorry to give myself a bump here...

Cruze, any ideas on my question about the chattering above?

Or anyone else with ideas welcome too :)



sorry mate forgot to get back to you on this one

mine had no obvious burs but the chatter marks were caused by the top of the feed ramp and the chamber mouth not having a broken or chamfered edge
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Re: Starting form scratch

Post by cruze82 » 03 Dec 2014, 1:52 pm

bigfellascott wrote:So how did you find the Magnaspeed, easy to set up and use?


what a great tool to have the setup was quick and easy and actual display and functions are easy to navigate

I had made twice the amount of rounds for the load work up so as I could see if it had any affect on accuracy witch meant I had it on and off 10 times during the shoot, it only took 10 seconds each time and no range closure.

The only down side is now a few of the guys at the club have seen it and how well it works there has been a few "would you mind if I borrow that"

Worth every penny Bigfellascott if you are thinking of buying one
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Re: Starting form scratch

Post by bigfellascott » 03 Dec 2014, 2:40 pm

One day I reckon I might just buy one of them, can't hurt to have a bit more info on what things are doing hey. I like the simplicity of setting them up - that's me to a tee, I'm not interested in over complicated things, I soon get the s**ts with mucking around with em and don't use em KISS is what I like and the Magnaspeed seems to tick all the boxes in that department. :D
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Re: Starting form scratch

Post by squirrelhunter » 04 Dec 2014, 9:35 am

cruze82 wrote:mine had no obvious burs but the chatter marks were caused by the top of the feed ramp and the chamber mouth not having a broken or chamfered edge


Thanks mate.

Something for me to investigate on my Scout now :)
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Re: Starting form scratch

Post by RDobber » 04 Dec 2014, 9:36 am

cruze82 wrote:The only down side is now a few of the guys at the club have seen it and how well it works there has been a few "would you mind if I borrow that"


Tell 'em it's broken and you're not using it.

You're "trouble shooting" it :lol:
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