Crimping .22-250 Remington

[Hugo]

Does anyone have redding dye's? And if so can you talk me through crimping with them?

Also I'm keen to hear if anyone has improved acuracy by crimping or any other benefits to crimping reloads,

I'm reloading .22-250 using hornady 52gn hpbt's with 34gn of AR2208 with reasonable grouping (roughly 1.5") but would like a bit better, I'm going to play with the loads to see what improvements that makes but want to hear the benefits of crimping from those of you who have been here before.

Thanks for you time.

Regards,
Hugo

[headspace]

I wouldn't bother crimping 22/250 bullets. Firstly It will not improve accuracy, perhaps the opposite, and secondly very few 224 cal bullets have a cannelure which is required for crimping. If you try to crimp a bullet without a cannelure you risk deforming the bullet and possibly increasing chamber pressure.

I would begin by making sure the bullets you are using are compatible with the twist in the barrel, and check how far your bullets are seated from the lands.

Accuracy can come from any direction; choice of bullet, powder charge, choice of powder, choice of primer and then maybe you can start on the rifle. I like to use a Lee Collet die that neck sizes only and does not use an expander ball. This die also minimises run out on the neck of the cartridge.

What loading manual are you using?

Cheers,
John

[Jack V]

I agree with headspace . It should not be any benefit in a round like a 22-250 if the neck tension is adequate to start with although you don't say what type of action it will be used in .

Also it's hard on your case mouths and encourages work hardening which can lead to neck splitting . Also upsets a nice case mouth chamfer which is important for bullet release .

+1 on the Lee collet die . I use them also . Expander balls I hate them.

[Hugo]

I'm using a bolt action Rem 700, the barrel twist is 1:12 with a 26 inch barrel, this twist rate would normally suit a lighter projectile however I haven't found a factory load other than the 55gn Winchester that it likes, using that I have started with that bullet weight & have worked down to see if I can get a dependable hand load that will consistently hit the wild dogs kill zone at 200-250 meters.

I'm keen on this as I've always liked the 250 for some reason maybe it takes me back to shooting with the old man as young fella, it does the job & puts a smile on my face every time I put it to my shoulder,

How can I check the head space? I saw once a device like a dice with holes drilled in it(rough description) & was told it measures head space but could get my hands on one,

[Hugo]

I forgot to mention I'm using Nick Harvey's 7th edition reloading manual,

[Jack V]

Ok you don't want to crimp for a bolt action . You can do a reasonable check of head space by cutting out a circle of sticky tape and fixing it to a fired case and se if it still chambers . Measure the tape with a micrometre so if it still chambers with two pieces of tape it may be excessive the way you are sizing. Now a few thou extra headspace is not the big boggy that some people think as long as you allow for that in your sizing operation and only size enough to get the case back in.
If you use the "ram the case all the way into the die " method then excess headspace will be a problem as you are over sizing the case for YOUR chamber .
The 22-250 is a bit of a finiky cartridge to improve accuracy on . I know because I spent a life time with one. Some just shoot well and others take work to improve , the gun can also be part of the issue . Some of the reasons are the case is quite tapered and it backs up on the bolt face as soon as it's fired if any extra head space is there . So the first thing is precision case body sizing is a good idea . It's difficult to achieve easy with a standard full length die .My advice is to buy a Redding body die and a Lee collet neck size die and separate the sizing operations . This allows the body die to only size the body and bump the shoulder if required . However it makes partial sizing so easy that a very precise case fit can be achieved with minimum work hardening of the brass . Actually it was the 22-250 that caused me to invent my first body die back in the 70's to cure this very problem . I just cut the tops off a full length die and drilled out the neck area by hand I still have the first rough made die but it worked a treat . Now you can buy the same type of die from Redding for about $50 . Redding die ID number for a standard 22-250 Rem. is 75106 .
When a tapered case stretches back inside the chamber it can upset the release of the bullet into the lands introducing a slight yaw . Precision case fit each time reduces this .
The Lee collet die will size the necks without touching any of the body and will do it in a way that does far less work hardening of the brass and can be much straighter than pulling an expander ball through the neck . Expander balls tend to bulge the neck out to the thinnest side of the brass making it off centre and encourage neck length growth . Using a Lee collet die does require some change in technique but if you do it right they work ok.
I can send you a detailed instruction on how to use the Lee die if you need it , the factory instructions are ordinary to say the least .
The 22-250 has a fair bit of recoil for a 224 centre fire so you can't shoot it like a 223 , you have to hold onto it a bit more and control the recoil . It's not harsh recoil as you know but it is enough to loose some group accuracy if you allow the gun to jump about .
The 1 in 12 twist rate should allow the use of around 60 to 70 grain bullets . If you can buy some Sierra 55 grain HPBT game kings that's not a bad bullet to develop loads with and once you get your system worked out you can substitute other projectiles. They will take roos , wild dogs and fox's well and even goats reasonably . Even the occasional pig with good placement .
The gun might also be part of the problem . You need to check the barrel is fully floated and the actions screws tight .
If after a long session of load development and shooting practise you still can't achieve acceptable accuracy then it may be time to have the gun looked at for possible bedding changes or any issues that may be there . Make sure you are cleaning the barrel well after about 30 shots as copper fouling can upset the accuracy . Some barrels are worse than others and need more cleaning . Get some Sweets 7.62 solvent and don't leave it in the barrel for more than about 20 - 30 minuets at a time.
When finished flush the bore out with turps on a few patches to neutralise it and re oil if finished shooting .

[Warrigul]

As a general (non specific to calibre) note, I don't like crimping being discarded in a wholesale manner, especially when the majority of reloading is for hunting not specifically target shooting.

It should be noted that a crimp can improve accuracy when the bullet isn't seated close to the lands or very deep throated chambers. A roll crimp shows a small improvement but the LEE factory crimp really makes a difference.

This mainly applies to military calibres but my .223 has shown benefit.

It should also be noted that the heavier projectiles in my .300WM were moving backwards slightly under recoil if in the magazine for a few shots(hitting magazine ends?) and still needed a crimp- in this case a simple roll crimp into the cannelure as I couldn't justify another LEE crimp die.

Crimping doesn't seem to lessen case life either. I have .303 cases that have been reloaded over thirty times with no ill effects. I know some of the pistol blokes avoid crimping as well, but I do it and have never had an issue.

The projectile can't always be seated close to the lands for consistant start pressure and crimping is another technique in the reloading closet.

[Jack V]

If a crimp shows any accuracy benefit in a bolt action then it's because it fixes something else that you are doing wrong . This is aside from projectile security which is a different issue in slam feed guns like autos and pumps .

No one is discounting anything in a wholesale manner. It's just not necessary on a bolt action if good neck tension and loading techniques are used and screws up your case mouth .

If you believe that your cases have not work hardened after 30 crimps then you are dreaming.

No ill effects on a cartridge that probably shoots low level accuracy anyway so how would you tell .

We are talking improving accuracy in a bolt action and a crimp is not the way to go when ther is many other better things to try first .

I don't know any bolt action shooter that produces fine accuracy that crimps their expensive match bullets it's just not the accepted way except possibly a few full bore shooters might because they use crimped Military ammo a lot anyway .

[Warrigul]

If you read my post properly I directed the benefits at the majority of reloaders not specifically target shooting, the reloader that loads for target work normally seats in relation to the lands negating any benefit from crimping.

Neck tension for the average reloader is whatever it is when it comes out of the die, collett dies have improved the achieveable immensely but there is still a lot of variance over a batch of 12 that have been reloaded, say, five times.

I have had no issues with case mouths on the three calibres that I routinely crimp, there have been no failures that can be attributed to the crimping(ie bits of the mouth cracking or falling off. I have kept particular notice over the past three odd years as this was an initial concern of mine. I looked and could not find any sound test of the effects of case crimping so simply loaded and fired five .308 cases crimped and five uncrimped up to thirty times(all were once fired- thats how I get my cases- then full length sized before the test), all were collett sized during the test and all required a couple of goes with the body die and a trim, I didn't anneal like I normally would with .308 and the necks were as Mr Winchester made them. Most reloaders would be quite happy with the fifteen reloads that ALL cases survived quite well.

For the sake of the test I was using 150 grain PSP winchester projectiles. Accuracy was a bit of a moot point as they out of my omark and the distance varied but the crimped ones definately grouped slightly better. But accuracy wasn't the point of the test as I already knew loads shot better when crimped.

There were two of the un crimped and one crimped case going at the end, none of the failures were at the crimp site, almost all were shoulder mid neck splits, there were no discernable differences between the crimped and uncrimped failures.

So please list the testing you have done and we will compare results.

Of course-as you have said- there are many other things you can try first, but often the magazine is too short or it is simply impossible to reach the lands, one Remington hunting rifle I loaded for(after the owner gave up) at 100 virtually had the projectile falling out of the end of the cartridge- it shot but was practically un usable hence the reason I bought a .308 crimp die. The resultant 1" groups justified the expense of the die and the owner won't use anything else. I would rather buy a LEE factory crimp die than rechamber a rifle if it is able to improve hunting accuracy.


You may call a hunting rifle or military rifle low level accuracy but any improvement in accuracy is still an improvement, a 3" group at 100 for a .303 is acceptable accuracy but when that group shrinks to about 2" most people smile. I don't crimp my target rounds but it isn't neccesary as they are run .010" off the lands and neck tension is no issue, but I can't do that with my enforcer so I use the crimp die to gain maximum accuracy, it works for me.


It is definately a tool in the cupboard for the majority of reloaders who are not target shooters or who want life as simple as possible.

And lets face it, if the projectile already has a cannelure the OP may as well try it so see if it has any effect on accuracy, what does he have to lose?

[Jack V]

What ever , but cracking can occur in work hardened brass , just because you have never seen it does not mean it don't happen . Brass can age harden and crack without ever being used , it does take many years though . You still can not argue that any shooter seeking improved accuracy should crimp instead of pursuing better ways to do it . If crimping was such an accuracy wonder then why do most not do it . Do it anyway you like mate it's your call . Comparing the 303 in Military rifle is not the same . However speak to any precision shooter and they will not advise it in this situation 99% of the time.
Squishing the jacket and core in on an expensive bullet is dumb unless the style of ammo and use specifically require it .

[Warrigul]

We are not neccesarily talking about expensive bullets here.

Of course hardening and cracking can occur in any brass as it work hardens, that is the nature of the beast and the reason I anneal some cases, but rather than just rely on assumption and conjecture please show me your test results, or someone elses', where it is applicable to crimping.

I would nearly bet you don't and won't try crimping as you are set in your routine(or perhaps it isn't necessary as you are quite happy with your ammo as it is), it doesn't hurt to look outside the square occasionally.

[Old Fart]

I'm going to play with the loads to see what improvements that makes but want to hear the benefits of crimping from those of you who have been here before.

I'd agree with Headspace's reply that it's not needed for the 22-250 and I can add the following...

I have a Winchester 70 Varmint chambered in 22-250 and have done a little experimenting with light crimps for a off-beat reason... Years ago I spent a few weeks cleaning up ferals on a property that had been let go for too long and was rife with them. Really bad terrain in places and driving around was like driving down train tracks with the vibrations in places.

Seemed like a good enough reason to try a light crimp to avoid any ammo being unseated or effected as a result.

I couldn't tell you the exact loads now but I typically have some 50gr and 70gr loads and would have had something similar at the time. Neither showed any improvement with a light rolled crimp. None of my regular loads had any issues with bouncing around in the back every day as it turned out anyway so the experiment turned out to be a waste of time.

[headspace]

We should remember that the OP was talking about a 22/250, and apart from Old Farts experiment, the 224 calibre has no need for crimping and in fact you rarely see a bullet of this calibre with a cannelure. Apart from a very light roll crimp as with Old Fart, trying to crimp a bullet that was not designed to be crimped will damage the bullet, and in time shorten the life of the brass.

Crimping was only ever supposed to be used on heavy rifles and handguns where recoil could dislodge the bullets from the cartridges in the magazine. Not something you want on a big game rifle. A rifle in 224 calibre is hardly the stuff of a dangerous game rifle.

My two heaviest hitters are my 308 and 270. I'm using 165gn bullets in the 308 and 14gn bullets in the 270, neither rifle has dislodged bullets under recoil and both shoot well under MOA.

John.

[Warrigul]

At first I too was dubious about mouth life, I get long runs out of most of my brass by treating it well.

As I have said before I have yet to see any solid proof that crimping reduces the usual effective life of brass so I tested it. At 30 reloads there were no signs that crimping was reducing the life of the case. Sure over fifty or 100 reloads this might change but I think in a hunting situation 30 loads is a reasonable expectation.

My response to Happyjack was in reply to his statement that NO boltaction would benefit from crimping when there are situations where there can be tangible benefits.

As a notoriously lazy reloader, if there were not some benefit in certain situations I would not be doing it. The fact that I only do it for three calibres out of about the twenty that I reload for speaks volumes. For the mate that put me onto it for the .303 slightly better accuracy was a side effect of him factory crimping to stop projectiles coming unseated when going through the rather harsh action of following an SMLE feed ramp.

Sometimes it certain situations it doesn't hurt to experiment, Old fart did and saw no benefit, someone else might.

Sometimes if everything is working right there is no point to experimenting, but it does fill the time in.

That's all I really have to say on it, take it or leave it it is no skin off my nose. It needs to be remembered that assumption is not proof.

[Jack V]

You took that that wrong way my post was concerning a bolt action 22-250 after I asked him what action he was using . Then I said you don't want to crimp for a bolt action , 22-250 already being the subject .

[RDobber]

My two heaviest hitters are my 308 and 270. I'm using 165gn bullets in the 308 and 14gn bullets in the 270, neither rifle has dislodged bullets under recoil and both shoot well under MOA.

I'm shooting .300 Win Mag and have never had an non-crimped bullet come loose under recoil either.

[Jack V]

Most good reloaders know that extra neck tension is a good idea on the bigger heavier stuff the standard dies are made with that in mind and you can buy different size bushings for the same reason so it tends to all work out . Not withstanding some crap dies that turn up now and then.
What a lot of shooters don't know is that the longer the ammo is loaded the higher the neck tension will be due to age hardening ( stress corrosion ) causing shrinkage of the brass . How hard the brass is to start and how much tension it is under also affects how long it takes and how bad it gets . Most shooters don't keep ammo loaded long enough to see much difference but BR shooters know all about it's potential effects . New softer cases last better than old many times reloaded ones in this vain. Moly coated bullets display more even bullet pull than uncoated bullets after long storage.

[Warrigul]

Most good reloaders know that extra neck tension is a good idea on the bigger heavier stuff the standard dies are made with that in mind and you can buy different size bushings for the same reason so it tends to all work out . Not withstanding some crap dies that turn up now and then.
What a lot of shooters don't know is that the longer the ammo is loaded the higher the neck tension will be due to age hardening ( stress corrosion ) causing shrinkage of the brass . How hard the brass is to start and how much tension it is under also affects how long it takes and how bad it gets . Most shooters don't keep ammo loaded long enough to see much difference but BR shooters know all about it's potential effects . New softer cases last better than old many times reloaded ones in this vain. Moly coated bullets display more even bullet pull than uncoated bullets after long storage.

I always lightly pull and reseat my .308 target ammo if it has sat for more than six months, they definately bond over a period of time and I prefer to rely on the proximity to the lands to provide start pressure not neck tension(which I personally think is a lost cause unless you are prepared to put a lot of time into case prep).

It shouldn't be an issue but it is, I have never worried about any other of my ammo but then the difference in accuracy wouldn't be noticeable in most of my other rifles(the difference is only a poofteenth).

[Jack V]

So you are saying that no one should bother with correct neck tension as it's a lost cause ? Are you drunk or something ?

[Warrigul]

So you are saying that no one should bother with correct neck tension as it's a lost cause ? Are you drunk or something ?

Nope, I just can't be bothered as for what I do the minimal improvement isn't worth the time or effort. All I want the neck to do is hold the projectile central, allow me to seat projectiles at +/- .002" optimum depth and have enough tension to stop the projectiles falling out on the mound while I am loading them (it gets embarrassing).

Bang for buck just not worth it in my case, that might change if I start bench resting again but not for what I am doing now. I reckon at least 98% of reloaders would agree(or as a complete guess, only 2% of reloaders would have neck turning and annealing gear and bushing dies aren't on every shelf).

You keep doing what you are doing, nothing wrong with that but don't confuse anal retentiveness with practical necessity.

I only ease some projectiles slightly after six months as I have had some very tight ones in the past.

Cheers from the lazy re-loader.

[Mich]

they definately bond over a period of time

You're not wrong. I've pulled some really old ammo and some of them feel like they're welded in.

[Warrigul]

they definately bond over a period of time

You're not wrong. I've pulled some really old ammo and some of them feel like they're welded in.

I was once given some 7.62 x 39 cold war era ammo that was splitting cases and blowing primers, I couldn't pull the projectiles with my press puller I had to drill a 30 cal hole in the bench insert the bullet and wiggle it first to break the grip. Yet I have some MK5 .303 ammo well over 120 years old with a nickel plate projectile that is loose in the neck and the only thing holding it in is the crimp.

[Jack V]

So you are saying that no one should bother with correct neck tension as it's a lost cause ? Are you drunk or something ?

Nope, I just can't be bothered as for what I do the minimal improvement isn't worth the time or effort. All I want the neck to do is hold the projectile central, allow me to seat projectiles at +/- .002" optimum depth and have enough tension to stop the projectiles falling out on the mound while I am loading them (it gets embarrassing).

Bang for buck just not worth it in my case, that might change if I start bench resting again but not for what I am doing now. I reckon at least 98% of reloaders would agree(or as a complete guess, only 2% of reloaders would have neck turning and annealing gear and bushing dies aren't on every shelf).

You keep doing what you are doing, nothing wrong with that but don't confuse anal retentiveness with practical necessity.

I only ease some projectiles slightly after six months as I have had some very tight ones in the past.

Cheers from the lazy re-loader.

So now you are saying they have enough neck tension , contradicting yourself ? Do you even know what the term neck tension means ?

[Monty]

Guys if you want to continue this take it to the PM system instead of taking over Hugo's topic with your debate.