Compress loads and bullet seating depth

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Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by melanie » 26 Jan 2015, 12:22 pm

Hi guys,

Reloader on my L plates here.

This is something I haven't been able to find a clear answer on. Looking at ADI reloading data a lot of maximum loads say they're compressed load. I haven't been able to find anything on how compressed 'compressed' is.

So 2 questions.

1) You could seat the same bullet higher or lower making it even more compressed.
2) Two different length bullets could be used with the same maximum 'compressed' load but the longer one would compress it more again.

This doesn't seem to be addressed in the load data?

So is it lowest common denominator and will work with all deeply seated long bullets? Or what else?
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by Jack V » 30 Jan 2015, 3:53 pm

You are quite correct. That is exactly why compressed loads are not a good idea and should be avoided if possible.

Generally compressed loads are with the slower powders for the cartridge because they take up the most space. Slight volume changes have less effect with slower powders so moving the bullet back and forth slightly would not make much difference to overall pressure as the curve of slow powder is over a longer interval than faster powders. The bullet will move a fair way up the barrel before the full pressure comes with slow powders . It's no big drama if a load of slower powder is slightly compressed but highly compressed loads I don't like.

Choosing a safe powder type and load that fills the case to 90 to 99% of it's capacity and the powder sits just under the bullet without major compression is generally associated with better accuracy . Please note I am not saying to fill a case to 99% with any kind of powder . You have to choose the burning rate and amount of grains consistent with a safe load from the guide that just happens too have the correct volume density to fill the case to the base of the bullet .

You will not always be able to do it exactly right but you can get close and still have a safe load.

Keeping a powder load in the range of safe reasonable pressure allows some variation in pressure so that a slight change of some kind does not produce a problem .
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by Warrigul » 30 Jan 2015, 5:45 pm

melanie wrote:Hi guys,

Reloader on my L plates here.

This is something I haven't been able to find a clear answer on. Looking at ADI reloading data a lot of maximum loads say they're compressed load. I haven't been able to find anything on how compressed 'compressed' is.

So 2 questions.

1) You could seat the same bullet higher or lower making it even more compressed.
2) Two different length bullets could be used with the same maximum 'compressed' load but the longer one would compress it more again.

This doesn't seem to be addressed in the load data?

So is it lowest common denominator and will work with all deeply seated long bullets? Or what else?


Honestly as long as it is within load table recommendations and you have worked up to the load sensibly, then compressed loads are no issue.

If you wish to avoid a compressed load often you can get more in the case by having a long drop tube, by tappng the case gently whilst you fill it with powder or even by going to a lighter brass(for instance you can generally get more powder in some remington cases because they are thinner walled and have a little extra capacity). If you neck size only then the case is also a little larger than when you loaded it after full length sizing and this needs to be taken into account when developing loads.

I have never had any accuracy or pressure issues with compressed loads but I do know a couple of people who have extra freebore in their magnums to allow very heavy projectiles to move further at start.

It is pretty hard to over compress powder and often the projectile just won't stay at the right depth after you seat it- a pain in the arse.

A couple of my favorite loads are compressed.

Follow load tables and sensible loading practices at all times, work up to a load watching for pressure signs. Every different projectile, different brand of primer or even new batch of powder you use will need working up to a safe load. Also never be tempted to use magnum primers unless specified

Where would 1200m match rifle be without max size chambers and compressed loads?
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by Jack V » 30 Jan 2015, 5:54 pm

It all depends on neck tension if you have high neck tension you can compress powder more and the bullet may not move .

For NEW reloaders it is better to avoid highly compressed loads .
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by Warrigul » 30 Jan 2015, 5:54 pm

Jack V wrote:It all depends on neck tension if you have high neck tension you can compress powder more and the bullet may not move .
For NEW reloaders it is better to avoid highly compressed loads .


Here we go................
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by Jack V » 30 Jan 2015, 7:51 pm

You think you know everything but you clearly don't . So you put down other people that do know . It's people like you that destroy forums by driving off knowledgeable people . Which is what you want , so you can be the big king pin on the forum. You are so intimidated by my presence .
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by North East » 30 Jan 2015, 8:00 pm

This is a shooting forum....not a bitching session.
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by Warrigul » 30 Jan 2015, 8:02 pm

Jack V wrote:You are so intimidated by my presence .


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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by Oldbloke » 31 Jan 2015, 9:06 am

Count 10........all of you. Opinion is just that, opinion.
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by bunnybuster » 31 Jan 2015, 2:28 pm

I'm concerned that a new reloader is considering using max loads as designated in the data manual,when you go down this path the margin of error becomes miniscule,one step from disaster.Choose a powder which will do the job within safe pressure parameters,with a charge filling about 90% of the case.

This learning process is akin to learning to drive,you don't go blasting along the motorway on L plates,you gain some skills first,if you cook up an overload you could loose sight of the whole process [ literally ] steady progress will get you to barrel burning loads.

Be Safe BB.
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by Khan » 31 Jan 2015, 4:59 pm

bunnybuster wrote:I'm concerned that a new reloader is considering using max loads as designated in the data manual,when you go down this path the margin of error becomes miniscule,one step from disaster.


Geez turn the doom and gloom down a notch.

She's asking questions before doing anything, that's a good thing.
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by Blackened » 31 Jan 2015, 5:01 pm

North East wrote:This is a shooting forum....not a bitching session.


:thumbsup:

If you don't want to see someone's replies use the ignore feature (add person X as a 'foe' in your account).

This will hide their replies by default, if you can't resist revealing them after you've ignored them and get upset by the reply you chose to read or rise to the bait that's on you.

Opinions differ. Accept it. (Did I really need to say that?)

Ignore the people you don't like and you'll be a lot happier.
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by Tiiger » 31 Jan 2015, 6:18 pm

melanie wrote:This is something I haven't been able to find a clear answer on. Looking at ADI reloading data a lot of maximum loads say they're compressed load. I haven't been able to find anything on how compressed 'compressed' is.


At the risk of starting something apparently... here's my opinion.

There is a margin of safety included in the ADI data, I have no qualms about using max loads from their data and have done so.

You're right about seating depth being variable and the possibility of seating a bullet lower increasing compression, a longer bullet could do this.

However... Other factors are going to stop you compressing a load that much.

1) With the same powder, as the bullet weight goes up and the length increases the max powder charge decreases creating more space.

I think I remember you are working with a .308 so I'll use that as an example, but whatever. It general information you can adapt.

2) If reloading for .308 you will have read that standard cartridge overall length is 2.800" and would seat your bullets accordingly. You're not going to decide to ignore that and seat them at 2.200" inches are you?

3) It's common with many rifles that the COAL you'll end up using will be above the 'standard' to bring the bullet closer to the lands, relieving or removing the compression.

4) Their isn't going to be a bullet that's sooooo long you have to crush the powder an inch into the case. Between a dozen bullets there would be a few mm difference.

5) There's also the suggestion that a light compression can be ideal, as it stops the powder sloshing around and give consistent burns between cartridges.

Check your figures and info, be sensible and there is no reason you should have a problem.
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by Warrigul » 01 Feb 2015, 12:52 pm

Tiiger wrote:At the risk of starting something apparently... here's my opinion.

There is a margin of safety included in the ADI data, I have no qualms about using max loads from their data and have done so.

5) There's also the suggestion that a light compression can be ideal, as it stops the powder sloshing around and give consistent burns between cartridges.

Check your figures and info, be sensible and there is no reason you should have a problem.


Without going into the technical side of it and with the proviso that people should always adhere to max loads I would have to agree whole heartedly that a lightly compressed load aids consistency and accuracy.
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by headspace » 01 Feb 2015, 2:47 pm

Plenty of good advice here, which is what the forum is all about. I find my 308 likes a slightly compressed load, or at least a very full case with 2208. It's the old story, work up to it. I don't mind the sound of crunching kernels.
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by bunnybuster » 01 Feb 2015, 6:15 pm

Khan wrote:Geez turn the doom and gloom down a notch.

She's asking questions before doing anything, that's a good thing.


My response was not to impose my will on anybody,it is my OPINION based on oh--- 40 years of reloading and having seen some frightening things done, I stand by my response, trying to save someone some grief, if you don't like it,ignore it-simple,like I always say-

Be Safe BB
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by Warrigul » 01 Feb 2015, 7:27 pm

bunnybuster wrote:
Khan wrote:Geez turn the doom and gloom down a notch.

She's asking questions before doing anything, that's a good thing.


My response was not to impose my will on anybody,it is my OPINION based on oh--- 40 years of reloading and having seen some frightening things done, I stand by my response, trying to save someone some grief, if you don't like it,ignore it-simple,like I always say-

Be Safe BB


BB's points are valid and I can see where he is coming from. He is totally right in that a new reloader is basically painting by numbers and they should adhere strictly to reloading manuals, if you compress the wrong powder disaster is possible.

And lets face it you can't get closer to max than a compressed load.

It really comes down to following manuals and what is written, if they list a max load as compressed then that can be worked up to that point as long as it is approached incrementally watching for excess pressure signs as every rifle reacts differently.

In my target .223's all the loads were compressed as are my match rifle loads, but these are strong proven actions, however leave the rounds in the hot sun for too long and primers start to pop and case damage is evident. In my 7.62 Omark my I need a compressed load for 1000 to keep it supersonic but it is very docile and shows no pressure signs at all. Horses for courses, running at the edge for a hunting shot at 300m is unneccesary and harder on gear than you need to be, surprisingly good accuracy is found in the starting loads and what deer can tell the difference between 3000 and 3100 fps?

But- wonderful things seem to happen when the right powder is compressed. Ask any blackpowder buff what happens if blackpowder isn't compressed- care to chime in Noisydad?.
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by Khan » 02 Feb 2015, 11:30 am

Warrigul and BB,

I'm not trying to start a fight with anyone. Just irks me when people give some lecture (helpful or otherwise) while ignoring the persons actual question.

Mel asked about variable seating depth and it's effect on compressing loads. I don't doubt BB's experience but instead of sharing anything usable (as he has in many other topics :thumbsup:) he says he's concerned and that she was "one step from disaster". A touch melodramatic wouldn't you say?

Saying "don't" without any corroborating explanation isn't a very satisfactory answer for those seeking one.

Along similar lines, people have at times asked about unregistered firearm and instead of answering the question someone always says "OMG YOU JUST ADMITTED YOU HAVE ONE AND THE POLICE READ THE FORUM OMFG! SWAT IS ON THE WAY!!!!"

It's be asked on here before, in Victoria if I recall correctly, and a calmer response followed which informed OP to just take it to their LGS who would do what was required to get it on the books, submit a PTA etc. and return the freshly discovered firearm to them registered and legally. No need for all the drama.

Happens a little too often that people use a topic as a soapbox for some lecture instead of just answering the question as it was asked. Not that the above has anything to do with you two, just another example.

Anyway I'm off on a tangent now, not having a go at either if you two fine contributors :friends:
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by cruze82 » 02 Feb 2015, 6:09 pm

Warrigul wrote:It is pretty hard to over compress powder and often the projectile just won't stay at the right depth after you seat it- a pain in the arse.


Warrigul can you explain this further please ?

I think I have come across this while working up some loads and in the upper end of the load development I found I would seat the projectile at the desired depth then when I went to chamber the round it felt tight so I removed the round and to see rifling marks on the projectile so I measured at the range and the projectile had moved out of the case 20 thow

can this be caused by an over compressed load ?
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by Warrigul » 02 Feb 2015, 8:24 pm

I've come across it twice when seating, as I like to seat +/- .002" for target use I set the press and go for it checking ALL the loads at the end with a comparator guage and pulling or pushing in further as needed. A couple of times I have had to tap the case a bit to get the projectile to seat at the proper depth, it appeared that the case walls expanded when the projectile was seated(powder doesn't compress) and when the press pressure was off the projectile simply moved back out between .005 and .015".

You can't strictly speaking Compress a load, only pack it in properly. It gets to a certain point and the projectile just won't go in any further.

I am happy to hear other theories on this as I have only encountered it a couple of times and it isn't dependent on neck tension.
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by Baronvonrort » 03 Feb 2015, 2:54 pm

melanie wrote:Hi guys,

Reloader on my L plates here.

So 2 questions.

1) You could seat the same bullet higher or lower making it even more compressed.
2) Two different length bullets could be used with the same maximum 'compressed' load but the longer one would compress it more again.

This doesn't seem to be addressed in the load data?

So is it lowest common denominator and will work with all deeply seated long bullets? Or what else?


It is addressed in the ADI data, with the 308 using 110-125 gr projectiles you will find most loads are compressed at maximum loads, the 125 gr lists 2 different projectiles with 2 different max loads both are compressed. (8208)

I also look at pressures when considering max loads, the 308 with 110-125 gr is around 50,000 psi with max loads which is below the 60,000 psi used for some other max loads, my .243 usually has pressures around 50,000 psi with start loads up to 60,000 psi max.

Seating the projectiles higher can give more room in the case, the magazine is what usually restricts how long they can be if using a magazine, I don't know why you would want to seat them lower.

The whole point to load development is to find something that works well for accuracy,when the bullet goes bang there are all sorts of vibrations and harmonics happening in milliseconds, the harmonics of your gun are what they are and not much you can do about that, load development is about matching the harmonics of the gun to the harmonics of the bullet going bang to get the best accuracy, by altering powder loads you are altering the harmonics of the explosion,by experimenting with loads you will discover one that gives superior accuracy over others.

Those with .22lr don't reload so they change ammo brands to find out which one works best to match harmonics of gun to harmonics of explosion, with a centrefire and reloading you can tailor it to suit your gun.

With my .243 the most accurate loads for 55gr are mid loads around 3700 fps,i could push them faster but accuracy falls off so I don't bother, the lower pressures from mid loads might help the barrel last longer.

Start near minimum loads and work up in .2 gr batches till you find the load with best accuracy which is what you are trying to find.
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by Tiiger » 05 Feb 2015, 10:11 am

Warrigul wrote:A couple of times I have had to tap the case a bit to get the projectile to seat at the proper depth, it appeared that the case walls expanded when the projectile was seated(powder doesn't compress) and when the press pressure was off the projectile simply moved back out between .005 and .015".


So what was the fix? Bump the projie a few times to settle the powder down or it just wouldn't happen?
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by Warrigul » 05 Feb 2015, 11:30 am

Mostly it was a case of tapping the case a few times to get the powder to settle into decent pattern, but once I had to back the amount off as the same brand of cases had a slightly less water capacity.

Older powder can weigh a fraction less for volume (density is less) than new powder as it dries slightly. This can trip things up a little in all areas of reloading, especially when loading to the max.
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by Tiiger » 06 Feb 2015, 10:21 am

Warrigul wrote:Older powder can weigh a fraction less for volume (density is less) than new powder as it dries slightly. This can trip things up a little in all areas of reloading, especially when loading to the max.


Hadn't heard that before, how old are we talking for that to take place?

Presumably storage conditions play a big part.
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by Warrigul » 06 Feb 2015, 2:21 pm

It depends a lot on storage, how often you leave the lid off etc etc. I have two batches of 2208 at the moment(a mate insists I use his when reloading for him and he bought a 4kg lot about seven years ago) and the older one is definately lighter for volume.

It's not really a big issue.
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by melanie » 08 Feb 2015, 11:55 am

Baronvonrort wrote:It is addressed in the ADI data


When I say it's not addressed I mean they make no reference to it or give any guidelines on seating depth.

I get that things balance out with practicalities like magazines length and not deliberately seating them overly deeply, but I ask as they make no reference to it all directly in their loading information that I have seen.
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by Tiiger » 08 Feb 2015, 11:55 am

Warrigul wrote:It depends a lot on storage, how often you leave the lid off etc etc. I have two batches of 2208 at the moment(a mate insists I use his when reloading for him and he bought a 4kg lot about seven years ago) and the older one is definately lighter for volume.

It's not really a big issue.


I'd never get anywhere near 7 years anyway, but thanks for the info.
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by bluehorse » 16 Sep 2022, 12:53 am

I came across compressed load in reloading 222 using Ar2208 .Adi list loads and start loads are listed e.g 23 grains .and max 25.0C. At first I had to scratch my head .what is 25.0C and I enquired at gunshop and was enlightened . that the C stood for compressed and to use a dropper tube to fill case with powder . .
I have been reloading 243 ,22.250 22 hornet k hornet and 22 for more years than i would like to admit and never come across loads that i had to use a dropper to fill the cartridge case so i could fit the projectile into the case and it would give me an overall length that was written into the formula given in the reloading manual. . I used to use Cyril Waterworth "Reloading Simplified" but I had given it to a younger froiend who was beginning reloading some years ago.
For those starting to reload I like it for its simpilcity and plain language used as its title suggests . For a novice I reccomend it but so hard to come by !!
I use balance scales ,I had an experience with electronic pocket scales giving me inaccurate measurements . . Reloading is not to be taken lightly. It can be very dangerous in extreme circumstances . Iam not trying to frighten anyone but if a novice cannot understand the terminology then seek advice from a reliable source ,. All advice in the internet cannot be relied on ! ! ! Check the credentials of the source ..
Next peice of advice I will offer is to be cautious with electronic calipers too or electronic measurement devices . They need constant verification . I have given up on these even good brand names as they can give false readings at times . A dial caliper is usually OK . or the basic vernier caliper ( if u can read it well} There are tutor sites in the net for reading these. .
I prefer micrometers and not electronic ones . I find verniers too hard to read off thousandths and my electronic ones I had issues with ..
For the novice learning how to read micrometers and verniers is aworthwhile exercise . Dont be tooproud to ask a friend to show you or find an internet site to tutor you. . We learnt at high school how to read the dreaded vernier scale and horror of horrors themicrometer screw gauge .. I am a diesel mech by trade so I used them all my working life ,. and they are not difficult once the basics are learnt and if new to reading one then use a pen and paper to do the calculation of inches then tenths then hundredths then thousandths and ten thousandths if it is vernier micrometer. . Once youhave this skill electronic ones are not needed .
Back to pouring the charge into the cartidge case , If it is filling up the case and little room is left for the bullet then the dropper tube or slow filling or tapping the case to settle the powder into a lesser volume . Extruded powder or stick powder is like tiny cylinder shapes under magnification and when it is poured into the case itcan occupy a larger volume than if the case is tapped or vibrated to get the powder to settle into a smaller volume . With the majjority of loads i have done volume has never been an issue ,. I had trouble fitting 23gns of Ar2208 into a 222 case until I made a dropper tube out of a bit of 1/2 inch stainless bar and bored a 1/4 hole thru about a 6inch long peice. Of course every manufacturer has their own versions of a dropper . Mine I made with a neat fit over the neck of case and top took my plastic funnel . Place the case on a peice of printer paper on your bench or table with dropper tube and funnel assembly and then tip your measured charge into the funnel slowly . After practise it will work ok and the paper on bench under case is to show any spillage . . I hope this clarifies the C load . . I am no expert on C loads but compressed loads are simply called compressed I think for want of better terminology , The actual powder cannot be compressed but the shape of the actual powder can be arranged so the load occupies less volume and then the projectile can fit together hopefully . In my case the 222 took 24 gns easily using my dropper tube arrangement .but 25 grains may be a challenge .
The main reason I wrote this is for clarication and explanation for those starting out reloading . as the way many experienced describe things is not altogether clear . . No offence meant to experienced either ..
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by bluehorse » 16 Sep 2022, 9:17 am

I read with great interest the articles here about308 compressed loads . I made 1 reply last night about my experience with 222 rem using AR2208. and after a restless night decided to experiment with my308W loading . .I have a new rifle in 308 and as yet unused but I have a bag of ppu brass in 308 and 150 grain Speer soft point flat end .I read about soft point boat tail being a problem load in as much as maximum loads are compressed. I think COMPRESSED is a very poor way to describe the process of filling the case with a charge then having room to fit the projectile in too conforming to the overall length quoted in the ADI load chart for 308win. . I weighed a charge of 47.5 grains of AR 2208 and threw it in a primed case using an ordinary plastic funnel Ihave had for a very long time. It would not fit in the case until i tapped the case so the charge would settle in a bit but Icould see no room for the proctile to go in tto the specified depth to give an overall measurement using a micrometer that was of course .checked for accuracy beforehand . It is the ordinary no frills typical traditional micrometer not electronic version that will tell u anything and mislead if it is not checked before use .
Next step I got my electric hairclippers to try as a vibrator tosettle the powder extrusions into place . Iheld the case in myfingers and putthe plastic case of the clipprs agains the brass case . I could see the powder shuffling road inside the neck but if I put the side of the blade against the case I had powder bounce out ! so I took the companion battery clipper for nose hair and tried these . They made the powder dance too and not as vigorously . I then put a bullet on top and pressed it in .I gt a an overal reading around 2,66 well inside specs ,.So now I withdrew the projectile and bearing in mind the case is new and unfired it is easy to do so. Then I checked my weight and I had my correct charge . I repeated the process with another round and removed the projectile again to prove my load was correct and within specifications . I repeated the process again with the cases that the projectile can slip in on top of the charge for measuring . My measurement after I had vibrated the cartidge was overall length of150 grain speer soft point flat back 2..662 of an inch . . My experiment was to know beforehand what i could expect loading 308W cartridges .NO Smoke and no mirrors and I have not used acronyms for good reason as theycan be confusing and misleading if the reader is not conversant with the names . Iam a diesel mechanic by trade and I used manufacturers manuals to find secifications and methods of assembly . Same with reloading for safety I take the manufacturers specs as the bible to guide me ..
In conclusion I did not compress the load but simply found a method of rearranging the extruded powder to occupya smaller volume in the given brass case and Ido find the word compressed misleading .I also think that the authors of the words compressed loads should be more explicit in the description of how to follow their instructions .
I do hope my experiment is useful for any readers ..
Peter
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Re: Compress loads and bullet seating depth

Post by bluehorse » 16 Sep 2022, 9:49 am

While not strictly about compressed loads my subject is powder scales . I had a st of battery scales that I used and calibrated too but they were not 100% consistent so they are put aside politely . ( not thrown to outhouse where they belong } A consistent load is needed for accuracy . I have my balnce scales from long ago that are still good . I discovered that the flat bottom of the pan can give crook inaccurate readings if the powder is not central. The amount of discrepancy depends on the volume of pwder not central . Verifying a load from a thrower then becomes a nightmare if a charge must be centrally located ! I played with the load in the flat bottomed pan and think variations can be as much as 5 tenths of a grain so checkweighing quickly in conjunction with a powder thrower aiming for 2 tenths accuracy is a painstaking exercise .
My fix for this was to use a small ball pein hammer to dome the bottom in the middle so the powder will fall centrally . It does so long as the dish is in the cradle and the charge is all central . . The dome is not all over the bottom but big enough for my loads . I often shake the tray to make the charge centrally located in this tray . It is cumbersome when I am in a hurry but gives better results .
Hope readers can find this useful .
Peter
P.S electronics are faster by a country mile while they are accurate but so many things can upset the electronic tools . The problems arising from inaccuracy or a false zero or calibration are not easy to identify so I like the old fashioned tools more . A foul up is more easy to identify and fix . Tools across the board are the same .. Some tension wrenches do not like being dropped especially on the part that has the scale stamped on it . I have 1 that is a big name but the handle grip with the scale on it is a pressed on fit and dropping this tool can reposition the scale in relation to the mating mark ..Beware ! calibrate tools in some way . Check zero or check with test peices supplied also . Find a method of zeroing scales on your bench often . It is a few minutes work that may save days of frustrations or foul ups .
bluehorse
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