NSW Powder Limit

[brett1868]

I'm in the process of apply for my ammunition dealers license and couldn't get a straight answer on how much powder I can store, I've heard 10kg, 14kg and up to 10kg per type of powder used. The last one was concerning as I load >10 different powders which according to that advice means I could have >100kg of powder which seems a bit dangerous.

So I did some digging tonight and managed to locate the exact legislation around how much powder we can store for reloading. In NSW we can keep 12Kg legally as per the current legislation.

Explosive Regulation 2013, Part , Division 4, section 48 , Item 2(C)

48 Ammunition


(1) A person who is a licensed firearms dealer under the Firearms Act 1996 is not required to be authorised by a licence in order to possess, store, transport, sell or supply:
(a) ammunition, or

(b) percussion caps, or

(c) not more than 12 kg of propellant powder.

(2) A person who holds a licence or a permit under the Firearms Act 1996 (other than a firearms collector licence) that authorises the person to possess or use a firearm is not required to be authorised by a licence in order to possess, use, store or transport:
(a) ammunition, or

(b) percussion caps, or

(c) not more than 12 kg of propellant powder.

(3) A person who holds an ammunition collection permit under the Firearms Act 1996 is not required to be authorised by a licence in order to possess or store ammunition that is authorised to be possessed under the permit.

http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/viewtop/inforce/subordleg+476+2013+cd+0+N/?autoquery=(Content%3D((%22propellant%22)))%20AND%20((Type%3D%22act%22%20AND%20Repealed%3D%22N%22)%20OR%20(Type%3D%22subordleg%22%20AND%20Repealed%3D%22N%22))%20AND%20(%22Historical%20Document%22%3D%220%22)&dq=Document%20Types%3D%22%3Cspan%20class%3D%22dq%22%3EActs%3C%2Fspan%3E,%20%3Cspan%20class%3D%22dq%22%3ERegs%3C%2Fspan%3E%22,%20Search%20In%3D%22%3Cspan%20class%3D%22dq%22%3EText%3C%2Fspan%3E%22,%20Any%20Words%3D%22%3Cspan%20class%3D%22dq%22%3Epropellant%3C%2Fspan%3E%22&fullquery=(((%22propellant%22)))

[sandgroperbill]

Have you decided which calibers you'll be producing?

[Noisydad]

12 kg doesn't sound like much for a licensed dealer to have in stock.

[brett1868]

Have you decided which calibers you'll be producing?

Initially the rounds I had most trouble sourcing for my own use, so .416 Barrett, .375 Cheytac, .408 Cheytac & 50 BMG

[brett1868]

12 kg doesn't sound like much for a licensed dealer to have in stock.

Dealers are under different legislation administered by Workcover with much higher limits based on magazine location and construction. There are also some rules around minimum separation between black powder, primers and propellant which I believe to be a minimum of 10m and apply to both dealers and individuals. I've found so much misinformation around shooters and dealers about limits, I went looking so I can't get busted for doing the wrong thing.

[Chronos]

I'm sure as you say there's different rules for dealers however the 12kg limit you quoted was tested recently when someone was charged. It went to court and the ruling was that the 12kg limit (I thought it was 10kg) applies to each firearm on the shooters licence and charges were dismissed. I'll try and dig up the reference.

Somehow worksafe regulations are being applied to ordinary citizens which is why we need to give name and address when purchasing powder. Someone out there is keeping a sly eye on how much powder we buy.

Chronos

[1290]

.....Somehow worksafe regulations are being applied to ordinary citizens which is why we need to give name and address when purchasing powder. Someone out there is keeping a sly eye on how much powder we buy.

Chronos

If powder is REGULATED by worksafe under worksafe laws.....

But the recording of purchases with compiled data to be handed over on request IS very Stasi-esque..... but in NSW an empty case is defined as ammunition

[Apollo]

but in NSW an empty case is defined as ammunition

Wrong State. That's Western Australia.

In NSW it's just a piece of Brass.

[Apollo]

I'm sure as you say there's different rules for dealers however the 12kg limit you quoted was tested recently when someone was charged. It went to court and the ruling was that the 12kg limit (I thought it was 10kg) applies to each firearm on the shooters licence and charges were dismissed.

I have a feeling that the basis of that dismissal was that the wording of powder limits was deemed ambiguous and could be construed either way however I also think that after that court case the wording was corrected to mean an overall limit and not per firearm.

It was awhile ago and I can't remember where I read about it all either.

[Harts]

So reading between the lines here a firearms dealer license isn't what you need?

Obviously every dealer has more than 12kg of powder on site. That would only be bulk tubs after all. So they must also be licensed as something else?

What is the other kind of powder license then?

[pomemax]

ITS a real can of worms to store powder
have a quick read of this may help i just looked at some bits
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/ ... 013521.pdf

[brett1868]

From calls this morning...12kg limit on individuals / dealers without any special license apart from usual firearms / dealers. The 12kg per firearm as Chronos said has been tested in court so a precedent has been set fro having >12kg though the interpretation of this legislation is a bit hit and miss. I look at it this way, I'll stick to the 12kg limit cause if I was to keep a greater amount the police could charge me despite the earlier precedent and the time & expense fighting a charge is not worth it. Dealers wanting to store >12kg have to engage with Workcover to ensure their magazine complies with the amount they want to store above 12kg. I'll be applying for the ammunition dealers permit under a corporation which makes life a bit easier for insurance / compliance obligations. Without a WorkCover approved magazine I can keep 12kg which is fine and I can always ask my shooting mate to keep another 12kg for me as well. There's way too much confusion in this legislation, I'm theorizing that the solicitors love it as they have something to fight with and against which is money in their pockect.

[1290]

I thought it was one of the states.....in New South a barrel is a firearm though isnt it

[brett1868]

I thought it was one of the states.....in New South a barrel is a firearm though isnt it

Rule of thumb about ammo...if it's primed then it's locked up. I have all sorts of cases laying around the bench, those turned into case gauges, sacrificed to the burners in the annealar or just plan stuffed.

It's a barrel of monkeys when it comes to spare barrels...I have around 12 barrels not currently fitted to actions, some legislation I was reading last night says they should be numbered and recorded on the registration of the firearm yet some other legislation under a different act (i think) says that so long as they're not fitted to an action then they are fine...technically a barrel isn't a firearm nor is it capable of firing a projectile and the laws are yet again vague on this.

[Chronos]

I thought it was one of the states.....in New South a barrel is a firearm though isnt it

Wrong again mate, back to the forest for some target shooting for you

barrels are a firearm part, you can be in possession if you have the appropriate license, they can be posted and sold without going through a deal afaik

Chronos

[Chronos]

I'm sure as you say there's different rules for dealers however the 12kg limit you quoted was tested recently when someone was charged. It went to court and the ruling was that the 12kg limit (I thought it was 10kg) applies to each firearm on the shooters licence and charges were dismissed.

I have a feeling that the basis of that dismissal was that the wording of powder limits was deemed ambiguous and could be construed either way however I also think that after that court case the wording was corrected to mean an overall limit and not per firearm.

It was awhile ago and I can't remember where I read about it all either.

Yeah it must be two or so years ago and i'll be buggered if i can recall where the info was published

there was also talk about legalities of storage being in one location or spread out over multiple location, that is 12kg in the house cabinet and another 12kg in the garage lockup

the problem is with supply having been so poor and pricing rising so quickly is that you pretty much have to buy 4Kg tubs and if you own say a .222, a 6.5X55, a .308 and a .44mag you may well have 4 different powders and there's 16kg, add in some 500gr bottles of pistol powder, and some odd half bottles of stuff you've bought and tried and you could be over 20kg

I guess the answer is to load it all up no laws about having too much ammo, only too much powder

Chronos

[1290]

I thought it was one of the states.....in New South a barrel is a firearm though isnt it

Wrong again mate, back to the forest for some target shooting for you

barrels are a firearm part, you can be in possession if you have the appropriate license, they can be posted and sold without going through a deal afaik

Chronos

the forest ??? who the f*** do you think I am, Bilbo Banks???

go and shoot your 6mm.....if you can handle the recoil; I wonder if you hold your boyfriends hand when you pull the trigger on the 12g...

you can possess a barrel if you have a licence?? that smells like a contradiction there mate....they are therefore REGULATED.... and they need serial numbers too!! on a barrel!!

Go Stevie!

[Apollo]

Technically a barrel is not a firearm, but...!!!!

When a firearm is received by a dealer and/or gunsmith with more than one barrel all barrels then form part of that firearm and must have a destinctive serial number which is recorded and forms part of that firearm's licence papers.

It is not all plain sailing though as far as what is law and what is not in NSW.

My gunsmith in Queensland has a barrel blank and chambers it as I want then posts it directly to me. There is no serial number stamped on the barrel as per his requirements by law but according to the NSW FAR I should then take the barrel to a dealer/gunsmith and have a serial number stamped and the paperwork submitted to register that barrel against a particular firearm. Yeah, right....

I purchase a firearm from Queensland, South Australia that comes into NSW with two barrels and the receiving dealer in NSW adds both barrels to the registration papers he submits to NSW FAR.

I take a firearm to my gunsmith in NSW to have the action bedded and he is aware I have more than one barrel, three in fact. Two factory barrels and one custom. He wants to check that the bedding will cover all barrels when they are fitted to either the custom stock and/or the factory stock. He stamps all barrels with a seperate serial number and submits the paperwork. I then receive a letter from the NSW FAR giving me 30 days to confirm to their dealer section that the barrels have in fact been stamped with the correct serial numbers. That phone call to NSW FAR Dealer Section was quite lengthy and too say the least confusing as they didn't seem to have a grip on the whole story of barrels and what exactly is required say if the firearm is sold with only one barrel, what happens to the others. What happens when a barrel is no longer required or worn out, or even what happens if I want to sell one of the barrels.

As we all know most factory firearms do not have a serial number on it's barrel but the barrel does actually have a registration number noted on that firearm's registration certificate. Check out your own certificates and you will see it under the barrel details.

I have some barrels that are registered against firearm's and they are stored in the gun safe with those firearms. Some others that are not registered are stored elsewhere away from any firearms. They are pieces of steel with holes down the middle....

If you do not have a firearms licence and caught with a barrel in your posession then I'd say you would be charged with possesing firearms parts without an appropriate licence.

Just like Powder Limits.... who knows what is or not a fact. My powder storage is in a number of locations.

[Chronos]

I thought it was one of the states.....in New South a barrel is a firearm though isnt it

Wrong again mate, back to the forest for some target shooting for you

barrels are a firearm part, you can be in possession if you have the appropriate license, they can be posted and sold without going through a deal afaik

Chronos

the forest ??? who the f*** do you think I am, Bilbo Banks???

go and shoot your 6mm.....if you can handle the recoil; I wonder if you hold your boyfriends hand when you pull the trigger on the 12g...

you can possess a barrel if you have a licence?? that smells like a contradiction there mate....they are therefore REGULATED.... and they need serial numbers too!! on a barrel!!

Go Stevie!

LOL, regulated?

not sure where you get your stuff from mate but no serial numbers on any of my barrels you need a license to possess ammo too mate, doesn't make them a firearm

Chronos

PS: the forest comment was referring to your commonsense laws in Vic about sighting in rifles on public land, nothing more, also WTF is bilbo banks? do you mean baggins?

[brett1868]

Section 4 A is interesting....and very vague but essentially says that I don't need my spare barrels numbered though I wouldn't like to test it in court.

128 Numbering of firearms and spare barrels


(cf 1997 cl 103)

(1) The Commissioner may, by notice in writing served on a person who has possession of a firearm or a spare barrel that is capable of taking and discharging ammunition for that firearm, allot a number in respect of the firearm or spare barrel.

(2) The Commissioner is not to allot such a number unless the Commissioner is of the opinion that there is no other unique number that could be used to sufficiently identify the firearm or spare barrel.

(3) A person (including a licensed firearms dealer) must not have possession of a firearm or spare barrel in respect of which a number has been allotted by the Commissioner in accordance with this clause unless that number has been imprinted on it in the following manner:
(a) in the case of a firearm—by stamping or, with the approval of the Commissioner, by engraving the number in an exposed position on the firearm, or

(b) in the case of a spare barrel—by stamping or engraving the number on the outer surface,
in numerals not less than 2 mm in height on a metal part of the firearm or spare barrel.

Maximum penalty (subclause (3)): 20 penalty units.


(4) A person does not commit an offence under subclause (3) in respect of having possession of a firearm:
(a) if the person did not know and had no reason to suspect that a number had been allotted by the Commissioner in respect of the firearm, or

(b) if the person, being a licensed firearms dealer, replaces a barrel that is so damaged or worn as to require its replacement, and all particulars as required in relation to that replacement are supplied in writing to the Commissioner within 24 hours of replacing it.

[scrolllock]

The Commissioner "may" allot a number.

Always nice to have certainty on these things

[scrolllock]

also WTF is bilbo banks? do you mean baggins?

It's his non celebrity cousin

[1290]

baggins biggins banks.... I've only watch those movies about 3,000 times over the kid's shoulders.....

& Yes. Regulated.