308WIN have I loaded it right ?

[macnet1]

Hey guys just starting out on my first load and decided to do some 308win.

There is a challenge though - Ive completed reloads on the following, 1 set of reloaded brass which was purchased loose from a store in Brisbane and 1 set of rounds that Ive shot myself that were full rounds bought some months ago.

Ok the issue is after reloading them the two sets are different sizes in length see the amigos enclosed - my questions is that is this safe ? the first lot of rounds the projectile looks to be a lot deeper seated in the case than the rounds i shot. I hope this makes sense - sorry but its my first time.


Cheers
Mark

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[tom604]

looks like your seating die is loose/not set up right, did the loose brass all go too deep? can you pull the bullets out with ease, try with just a shell,do they just drop in?
how many loose shells did you buy? you did full length all the loose brass?

[brett1868]

Mark,
Welcome aboard and very wise of you to seek some advice when something didn't look quite right. Some questions and a few observations base don the pictures.

Questions
Make and model of rifle?
Barrel length?
Twist rate if known?
Do you own a kinetic bullet puller? (Jam some tissue into the bottom so the projectile tips don't break)
Was any adjustment made to the seating die between batches? That's the only explanation I can think of for the vastly different seating depths.

1. The shorter of the 2 appears seated way too deep and should not be fired under any circumstances. Seating too deep raises pressure exponentially which can lead to catastrophic failure, injury or death.

2. Ignore the picture on the Lee box as it's only applicable to that bullet, each projectile has it's own particular seating depth which has to be worked out by a gradual process of adjusting and measuring if no load data available. I couldn't find any load data on the ADI site for that projectile so can't comment on the proper seating depth.

3. Brass preparation - Neither case appears to have been trimmed, de-burred or properly cleaned. These are important steps especially with used brass so you are always shooting brass of near identical dimensions.

Do you have any friends up there with reloading experience who could show you the basics?

YouTube can be very helpful - Below is a reasonably good guide to reloading the .308 but if you search on reloading .308 there'll be dozens of hits.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_hlPWHPiOM

A quick one on setup of the seating die
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp4JxueGT8M

And bullet seating
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7u4O9eiNZM

[Apollo]

I wonder what weight of powder was used and how it was weighed. I see some sort of powder pan in one photo.

Hornady Reloading Manual 7th Edition suggests a C.O.L of 2.800" (71.11mm) for Bullet #30312 / 155gr A-Max. So those longer one's are probably okay. The cases look water tarnished and are probably okay as long as they have been wiped clean. The case with the longer bullet looks like it was a "Factory Crimped" neck and again okay as long as there are no protruding bits or loose bits. They really don't look like they have been chamfered / deburred on the outside. I see the tool so hope the insides were done.

The short seated bullets need to be pulled as Brett suggested. Way too short. Get a Frankford Arsenal kinetic bullet puller, it has 4 ribs inside to catch bullets and will not damage ballistic tip bullets, pull all the short seated bullets and start again. I suggest you don't wack the bullet puller on concrete or steel, use a large piece of hardwood laying on concrete outside.

If you can find someone with case cleaning equipment ask them to clean your cases for you before you reload next. They don't look that bad so no big drama there. Clean and shiny cases are easier to work with and show up any faults easily if they develop in the future. Examine all your cases before reloading.

Case trim length is suggested at 2.005" and should not exceed 2.015".

I also wonder why the CCI Magnum Primers, you might find that standard large rifle primers perform better for general use.

Just a few thoughts...Oh, I've never reloaded for .308W but there really is no difference to any other calibre as far as reloading proceedure goes.

[sandgroperbill]

First round definitely looks way too deep.

Do you have any reloading manuals?
If yes: find that projectile and look up the overall lengths
If no: get some
The ADI manual is pretty concise by comparrison, but quite good, and cheap. I like the theory of cross referencing two before loading.

I personally have lee, nosler and adi manuals and cross reference between the three, not only for charge weights, but also dimensions.

On a bit of a side note, when you buy nosler projectiles you get a small card with load data. Doesn't replace a manual but still a good idea.

[Apollo]

Hornady Reloading Manual 7th Edition suggests a C.O.L of 2.800" (71.11mm) for Bullet #30312 / 155gr A-Max...

[sandgroperbill]

We were typing our replies at the dame time. Your post didnt appear until i hit submit

[Apollo]

Well, there you go... A time warp....

I'm sure he/she will sort it out. We all started somewhere at some time. Be it mid last century in my case....

[Strikey]

I would say that you haven't resized those cases as it looks the projectile on the shorter one has slipped down the neck and is sitting on the powder charge? Read the instructions on setting up the dies and then go buy a reloading manual ( Nick Harvey's),

[macnet1]

Hey folks thanks for the feedback - I'm heading off to Queensland Gun exchange to get right books and bullet removers, thanks also for the links to videos, I see what Ive done wrong here, all part of the learning I guess but still need to triple check everything

[brett1868]

Might be a bit late but get some standard large rifle primers. Old school thought was to use magnums for everything and subtract 1Gr from the charge which is how I was originally taught. Now I've adopted the rule of <60Gr charge - Std Primer >60Gr charge - Magnum Primer. The theory is that by using magnum primers on small cases with small charges that ignition can be inconsistent due to the charge being ignited in several places along the cartridge causing pressure irregularities during the burn phase. Standard primers are cooler and tend to ignite the smaller charges in a more consistent manner from the rear giving a more uniform burn and pressure curve. Some tests show that in a .308 round loaded identically apart from the primer that the magnum primers generate 100fps more then standard primers. This can be attributed to the rapid ignition and pressure spike, not necessarily a good thing if on the upper limits of charge weights.

That said, it's irrelevant which primer you use if smashing feral's out to a few hundred meters providing you subtract 1Gr of powder from the maximum in the book just to be on the safe side. If on the other hand you're looking to head shoot feral project manager's at ranges over 1000M then primer choice becomes more critical and I highly recommend RWS

[Strikey]

Brett, if your powder charges are filling the case you should have no ignition problems whether you are using standard or magnum primers, it is a fairly standard rule though to use magnum primers with charges in excess of 60grns which are generally the slower burning types. You will have ignition problems with powder charges that are either reduced loads or a powder that is too fast for that calibre as it won't fill the case, when the cartridge is chambered in the rifle the powder lays on the bottom side and therefore the flash from the primer goes over the top of the charge causing erratic ignition and pressure spikes.

[brett1868]

I didn't say ignition problem, only inconsistencies in ignition. Magnum primers will penetrate further into the charge and depending on charge density / volume there can be inconsistencies in the pressure curve. Standard primers will also have inconsistencies in how the powder is ignited but smaller then those of magnum primers. Nothing relevant to regular hunting distances or something to be overly concerned about by the average punter. I'm trying to hit very small targets at extended ranges so eliminating or minimising inconsistencies is critical for me. A 50fps velocity variation at the muzzle can mean the difference of a hit or miss for me but means nothing at regular hunting distances.

Nice comparison done below, no real conclusion one way or another which is better.
http://www.accuratereloading.com/primer.html

[rsj223]

Hey Brett on that second vid when setting up the seating die could you use a factory round that is at the correct size to speed up the process?

[tom604]

Hey folks thanks for the feedback - I'm heading off to Queensland Gun exchange to get right books and bullet removers, thanks also for the links to videos, I see what Ive done wrong here, all part of the learning I guess but still need to triple check everything

so what were you doing wrong??? we only think we know share the knowledge

[brett1868]

Hey Brett on that second vid when setting up the seating die could you use a factory round that is at the correct size to speed up the process?

Short answer is yes providing it's using the exact same projectile as you intend to use and by exact I mean brand and model. Back off the seating a fraction though as it's much easier to adjust and seat deeper then it is to have to pull the projectile and start again. If I screw up a round by over seating then it's put back in the box to be resized again so as to maintain consistency in neck tension. If you're loading many different projectiles then the Hornady OAL gauge is mandatory so you can measure the max O.A.L for each projectile and work from there. If you need some cases machined for the gauge P.M me and I can sort you out with that as it's always better to use your own fire formed brass then to pay for the Hornady case, and I'm cheaper If using a different projectile then start high and gradually work your way deeper till you reach the correct COAL. I seat high, measure with comparator, make a half turn on the depth and measure again so I have an idea of how much half a turn seats the projectile. A little math and you can work out how many turns to need to get to the desired depth. If I need 10 turns then I'll dial in 9 then fine tune. This is on the RCBS dies for the hunting type rounds. On the bigger stuff I use micrometre seating dies set .005" high, seat projectile, measure then dial in the exact additional depth required. Also after seating I rotate the case 180 degrees and seat again to aid in concentricity. Final step the cartridge is checked and concentricity adjusted to be +/- .001"

Seating depth is just another variable with several differing views on where to start, some jam the projectile into the rifling, some like to jump the projectile and there's all the space in the middle. Another view is that minimum seating depth should be equal to 1 calibre, say for .308 you have .308" of projectile in contact with he neck (the boat tail isn't included). Other's seat the limit of the magazine in that the round will still fit in the mag and others seat higher and have to single feed each round cause it won't fit in the mag. A lot of this depends on your rifle and what it likes in the way of projectile type, weight, and velocity.

I found the limits of conventional reloading a while ago and in frustration at the lack of improvement in group size made the jump into precision reloading which entails a bucket load more work, tools and time. The shooters who win titles for bench rest, I consider more as champion loaders then shooters. I'm quite new to the precision reloading side but have been reloading since 1977 so have a bit of experience. I've been getting a lot of help from a few people, some on here and others who have won major international competitions. I haven't competed in many years, haven't won any state titles but I'm extremely anal retentive in attention to detail so every round I load for target is as close to perfect as the round before and the next round.

[Gwion]

Just the topic title frightens me!

Glad you're going to pull them apart and start again.

Search for online PDFs of manuals as well. Many of them are older editions but the basic explainations of the hows and whys are still relevant: plus, you can down load the old versions free. Read a few of them so the info sinks in. It helps having explained different ways from different manuals. I have hard copies of Nick Harvey and Speer plus use the online ADI and a Lyman free download.

1. I'd pull them apart
2. I'd full length size them , trim to length then chamfer & debur the necks.
3. I'd make a dummy round that touches the rifling (no primer, no powder) and use that to set up the seating depth. Read how to set up your dies a number of times and practice it. Set it up, take it off, do it again. Use the dummy as a start point to set your die, then remove the dummy and make a 1/2 or full turn of the die's seating stem as a start point for loading.
4. Make sure you measure & weigh your powder accurately.
5. Read up about load development strategies. Start LOW and work up. Don't go ANYWHERE near max charge yet. You should find an accurate load lower down or half way through the load range.

Good luck. Slowly slowly climb the mountain. Reloading isn't difficult but it DOES require strict attention to detail and consistency of processes.

[rsj223]

Thanks Brett, I'm on the edge of getting into this and read every post like this one and take it all in.

[brett1868]

Thanks Brett, I'm on the edge of getting into this and read every post like this one and take it all in.

Reloading can be quite rewarding or extremely frustrating depending on the results at the range. I actually enjoy the reloading process almost as much as the shooting. I go bush for a few days, empty a few hundred cases and I look forward to coming home to reload them as I find it relaxing. I have been getting my boy more and more involved in the reloading process as well, mainly as there's a lot to load and his help is free , tonight he learnt how to calibrate the annealing machine using Tempilaq before feeding 200 cases through it. Tomorrow night he'll run the powder thrower again for me which is a bit slower then doing it myself but it's quality time in the man cave, just father and son which is pure gold and beats the crap out of spending hours in front of the T.V or playing Minecraft on his iPad.

[newsteadvic]

Just the topic title frightens me!

Glad you're going to pull them apart and start again.

Search for online PDFs of manuals as well........ Lyman free download.

This is the Lyman one?
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/pres ... oading.pdf

3. I'd make a dummy round that touches the rifling (no primer, no powder) and use that to set up the seating depth. Read how to set up your dies a number of times and practice it. Set it up, take it off, do it again. Use the dummy as a start point to set your die, then remove the dummy and make a 1/2 or full turn of the die's seating stem as a start point for loading.

My approach is that for a neophyte reloader, reloading to the lands and using a comparator is not necessary and more complication and expense for those first few loads until the basics are understood.
I would suggest Mat just practice setting up the FL sizing die as per instructions. the seating die and make the new rounds up to be the same size as a commercial round with a projectile of the same weight. The aim just being correct neck tension to hold the projectile and a safe, middle of the road seating depth.

I get turned off by people stating new shooters or reloaders need all manner of extra gadgets just to have a trial of reloading - all that can come later but we don't want to make reloading the preserve of only those who can buy their way in with masses of equipment.

[Gwion]

Just the topic title frightens me!

Glad you're going to pull them apart and start again.

Search for online PDFs of manuals as well........ Lyman free download.

This is the Lyman one?
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/pres ... oading.pdf

3. I'd make a dummy round that touches the rifling (no primer, no powder) and use that to set up the seating depth. Read how to set up your dies a number of times and practice it. Set it up, take it off, do it again. Use the dummy as a start point to set your die, then remove the dummy and make a 1/2 or full turn of the die's seating stem as a start point for loading.

///
I would suggest Mat just practice setting up the FL sizing die as per instructions. the seating die and make the new rounds up to be the same size as a commercial round with a projectile of the same weight. The aim just being correct neck tension to hold the projectile and a safe, middle of the road seating depth.

///.

^^
Probably a wiser move.

For the Lyman manual, search for : Lyman Reloading 45th edition PDF.
I would post it for you, but it is an 84MB file.

[Sender]

so what were you doing wrong??? we only think we know share the knowledge

Wait wait I thought everyone on internet forums was a bonafide expert

[tom604]

so what were you doing wrong??? we only think we know share the knowledge

Wait wait I thought everyone on internet forums was a bonafide expert

everybody but me

[MalleeFarmer]

Someone may have said this but Get Nick Harvey's reloading manual. It's very informative and I have found it a great starting point for reloading.

[brett1868]

I would suggest Mat just practice setting up the FL sizing die as per instructions. the seating die and make the new rounds up to be the same size as a commercial round with a projectile of the same weight. The aim just being correct neck tension to hold the projectile and a safe, middle of the road seating depth

Slight flaw with this method is that different projectiles even of the same weight will seat at different heights depending on their profile (don't ask how I learnt this). What I've done in the past is to load up a dummy round (sans primer / powder) seating the projectile high, colour it in with black texta and chamber it, the rifling scuffs the texta where it engages, seat progressively deeper repeating the process till no marks are seen. Measure the COAL and go from there.

I get turned off by people stating new shooters or reloaders need all manner of extra gadgets just to have a trial of reloading - all that can come later but we don't want to make reloading the preserve of only those who can buy their way in with masses of equipment.

Doesn't take masses of equipment as you say but people generally reload for a couple different reasons, if it's to save some money then a basic kit and following the manual will provide the results and it's not overly costly. If they wish to pursue further or to improve accuracy, a proper job requires knowing the max O.A.L as a start. A comparator and OAL gauge should be one of the next things in the reloading draw so you can accurately measure your rifles chamber ($175 on eBay for both). Books and guides provide their data based on SAAMI specifications for the chamber but as no 2 chambers are identical (and change with use) it's wise to measure and measure each 500 rounds shot. Once a starting point has been established then all the rest is fairly straight forward and good results should follow. $175 isn't a great deal to invest on a couple of tools that improve results.

Or we can switch to black powder and reloading becomes an on demand task

[becks]

(Off topic, sorry to hijack)

Brett, when you're loading for your .50 and other big bangers is the process the same?

Min load, work up, blah blah etc.

Any special considerations when you're dealing with such large case capacities?

[Ed9362]

It Looks to me you might have put the cases on top of the shell holder rather than in it when seating the bullet resulting in the bullet being seated to deep. I have made this mistake before.

[brett1868]

It Looks to me you might have put the cases on top of the shell holder rather than in it when seating the bullet resulting in the bullet being seated to deep. I have made this mistake before.

That be some lateral thinking right there, and thinking about it the seating depth difference between the 2 rounds looks close to the thickness of a shell holder. Good pickup, it's not something I've actually done myself....yet

[Oldbloke]

It Looks to me you might have put the cases on top of the shell holder rather than in it when seating the bullet resulting in the bullet being seated to deep. I have made this mistake before.

That be some lateral thinking right there, and thinking about it the seating depth difference between the 2 rounds looks close to the thickness of a shell holder. Good pickup, it's not something I've actually done myself....yet

Nor I. ya gotta laugh if thats it. Well s**t happens.

[brett1868]

(Off topic, sorry to hijack)

Brett, when you're loading for your .50 and other big bangers is the process the same?

Min load, work up, blah blah etc.

Any special considerations when you're dealing with such large case capacities?

For the 50BMG I do the usual case prep and load like any other round apart from seating depth. For seating I use the advertised ADI C.O.A.L for the round which is 5.45" because all my 50's have the military standard chambering and I can't seat to the lands or even close. Standard 50BMG chambering is designed for high reliability cycling of machineguns so has quite a long throat, I made a case gauge and the Hornady AMAX projectiles clear the neck before engaging the rifling. Whilst still reasonably accurate it's not optimal for accuracy which is why I'm in the process of acquiring a match grade barrel with a 50BMG "Accuracy" chambering which will have a much shorter throat. Strangely enough both of the .416 Barrett's I own have similar throats to the 50's which I don't understand as it was always designed for long range accuracy. I suspect in the .416 chambering they may have adopted a similar approach to Weatherby by increasing "Freebore" to increase velocity. Either that or the profile of my experimental projectiles varies from that used by the factory projectile which are around $5 a pop now and take 4-6 months to import. The ones I use were originally made for me by Woodleigh in Victoria and so far exceeded expectations. Next round of testing is almost loaded and I'll be up north in August to attend AgQuip and blow through a couple grand in ammo. If anyone is thinking of attending AgQuip at Gunnedah Aug 18,19 & 20 I'll be there on the 20th if you would like to catch up in person for some of the best steak sandwiches in Aus.