Charge cross reference - what do I pick and why?

[juststarting]

So I am trying to understand the cross referencing thing… And matching values so to speak, to make sure I have a consistent starting load for a given projectile and, say, large rifle primer. In this example, I am looking at 165r bonded SP (e.g. http://www.woodleighbullets.com.au/imag ... pp_new.jpg).

I am basing this on powder equivalents:
http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloade ... alents.asp

I may or may not have a soft copy of Lee manual, so I have something to play with for the time… Anyway…

Lee: Min: IMR4064 - 165gr jacketed bullet - 42 grains of powder
Lee: Max: IMR4064 - 165gr jacketed bullet - 64.3C grains of powder
Speer: Min: IMR4064 - 165gr jacketed bullet - 43C grains of powder
Speer: Max: IMR4064 - 165gr jacketed bullet - 45C grains of powder
Speer: Min: AA2520 - 165gr jacketed bullet - 42.5 grains of powder WITH MAG PRIMER
Speer: Max: AA2520 - 165gr jacketed bullet - 45C grains of powder WITH MAG PRIMER
ADI: Min: AR2208 - 165gr HDY SP - 38.5 grains of powder
ADI: Max: AR2208 - 165gr HDY SP - 42.5 grains of powder

Inconsistent… Especially, the ADI minimum and Speer minimums are far apart, everything else compared to ADI is not too close either.

I assume safest is the lowest load, 38.5gr, but that just doesn’t seem right compared to other values. Which one do I chose? Why? And is there something better to cross reference?


Thanks!

[Apollo]

I take it that you are playing "powder equivalents" for a given weight bullet.

Remember that the equivalent powder is not a direct match so AR2208, IMR4064 and AA2520 are all different powders made by completely different companies. They not only have a different chemical structure, different shape/size but also the data was done by different companies and different test barrels so they will most likely not match anything.

The only direct equivalent to ADI AR2208 is Hodgdon Varget which is manufactured by ADI the relabeled by Hodgdon.

Don't know where you got the ADI figures for the 165gr HDY SP but you are wrong. The data on their web site says Min 42gr / Max 46gr Compressed. Same on the Hodgdon site. Your Lee IMR4064 is also wrong, Lee2nd Edition says 40.7gr to 42.5gr, no 64.3C listed anywhere and you wouldn't even fit that amount into a 308W case. Looks like you got the Speer correct.

These are all different bullets too, 165gr is a rough comparison.

If you are going to compare data I would suggest you only look at powders you may be able to obtain like Winchester 748/760, Reloader 15 and AR2208 (Varget). Viht powders are no longer being imported by NIOA so you will have a very limited supply if at all. If you look again at the corrected figures you might see they are a little closer. BTW Winchester 748/760 is a Double Based (Ball) Powder and is very temperature sensitive...ie a mild load during winter could become rather much more when conditions heat up.

My suggestion for when you are actually going to do some reloading is to use only the ADI/Hodgdon Data for the powder you obtain.

Remember that Primers are different also, do not swap Primers without starting your mild load testing afresh.

BTW. I don't own a 308W nor have ever reloaded for one so I can't give you any specific help there.

When looking at a list of powders for a given weight bullet look at the tested velocities and pick one in the middle speed spread rather than the fastest or slowest to start with. With the 165gr Bullet AR2206H might provide better accuracy...perhaps..!!!!

Another thing to remember is what barrel twist rate is being tested and what you might have could well be different and change everything.

[happyhunter]

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[Baldrick314]

I'd stick with ADI powders mate. I run 2206H for my 168gr projis in 308 and it delivers great consistent results

[newsteadvic]

As Apollo states, powder equivalent tables are only for broad descriptive information about powders, unrelated to actual charge weights.

I would also echo just using ADI data if AR2208 is what you have and sticking with one brand of primer.

This is from the ADI pdf, 6th Ed 2013 for 165grain and the 308:



Now this data is provided for the Hornady 165grain however as long as the weight is the same or slightly less and it is not a monometal (Barnes copper etc) you can safely use this data with the Woodleigh 165grain. As Apollo states the min is given with 2208 as 42.0grains and the max 46grains. With ADI data I do not reduce the min by 2%, I feel confident using their min to start. AR2208 or AR2206H would be fine for 308.

ADI: Min: AR2208 - 165gr HDY SP - 38.5 grains of powder
ADI: Max: AR2208 - 165gr HDY SP - 42.5 grains of powder

I assume safest is the lowest load, 38.5gr, but that just doesn’t seem right compared to other values. Which one do I chose? Why? And is there something better to cross reference?
!

I think you are reading the line for BenchMark 2 powder there and confusing it with AR2208! Read the tables carefully! Powders can look very similar!


For some more Australian data, this is from Nick Harvey 9th ed, demonstrating the same suggestions for AR2208 as ADI:

[sandgroperbill]

Probably twho of the more common powders to be used with .308 and similar over here would be AR2206H and AR2208, though I also understand Benchmark 8208 is becoming popular, too.

I use AR2206H in the .30-06 and get good consistent results, but I don't reload to the same precise degree as bench rest shooters, as I load hunting rounds.

I start by using the ADI data, and then just cross reference to make sure it is consistent against other data (it should be said, I have never found the ADI data to be inconsistent yet, but it's a safety thing. It is more to check that you're not mis-reading, looking at the correct data, line, etc). Other manuals may also list different projectile types, weights, etc, which may not be listed in the first manual you check.

So, if we start with ADI data: (6th ed 2013, reminds me, I have to get the latest ADI guide)
Min loads, closest match to your projectile is Hornady SP
2206H: 41 gr gives you 2525fps from a 24" barrel with relatively low pressure. Max load is 43.5gr for an extra 170fps but a jump in pressure from 38600cup to 50000cup

2208: 42 gr gives you 2582fps 40800cup. Max is 46 gr compressed for 2773fps and 50500cup. Notice how much difference a couple of grains can make? this is why you need to be extremely cautious and paying attention when weighing your charge.

Now, if we find the closest powder equivalents to US powders, AR2206H closely matches H4895 and 2208 is Varget (Try to match ADI powders to hodgdon).

Now, Nosler 7 lists IMR4895 and Varget. H4895 and IMR4895 are not the same powders, but the ADI does list IMR4895 as a similar powder to AR2206H. The powder charges are similar, but not quite the same, with min being listed as 39 gr giving 2412FPS, 41 gr as 2560fps and 43gr as Max giving 2708fps.
I have come across some load data that varies between H4895 and IMR4895, so always be careful with manuals when looking up data for AR2206H.
Nosler does list varget, which gives us a direct comparison to AR2208.
Varget: min 42 gr for 2662 fps, 44.0 is noted as the most accurate charge giving 2758fps and Max is 46.0gr giving 2820fps.

Finally, Lee 2nd ed.:
H4895: start load 41.0gr gives 2525fps, Max load (lee lists as never exceed) 43.5gr for 2694fps
Varget: start load 42.0gr gives 2582fps, Max load 46.0 gives 2773fps..
Lee doesn't list the barrel length to give the fps, but given the consistencies I would assume 24" again.

So, personally, If I was loading for hunting and just starting with reloading, I would start at 41gr for Ar2206H and wouldn't go to Max, I would stay between 41 and 43.0gr.
For AR2208 I would start at 42.0 and try to stay between 42.0 and 45.0. Always best to exercise a little caution, especially when starting.

Hope this helps.

[juststarting]

Thanks, all, for taking the time with detailed responses. I had another look, yep pretty sure I was reading something else, hazards of trying to focus late at night.

I'll have to read through everything again. Definitely need to be more than comfortable before I start measuring powder, etc. For now I am just making sure I understand everything...

Hoping to go for a test run next weekend.

[sandgroperbill]

An interesting little side note for you. Nosler bullets come in some fancy packaging, and include a couple of cards with load data for that particular bullet. For example, I just went and opened one of my spare boxes of bullets (165gr bballistic tip) and it had two cards. One with .30-06 data for H4350, W760 and RL22, and the other with .308 data for IMR4350, RL15 and Varget.

They're definitely not the cheapest bullets you'll find, but I like them.

[Apollo]

Just a reminder that Hodgdon do not make any type of powder, they are just a distributor of other companies powders. In some cases they retain the original name and for others they change the name to their own (reason unknown).

The ADI Powder Equivalents Sheet gives you the Hodgdon Powder list and those listed are not a close match, they are exactly the same ADI Powder under a new name. One funny one is what Hodgdon sell as IMR 8208 XBR which is not made by IMR, it's ADI's Bench Mark 8208 and was sold in the USA well before it was released in Australia.

Another thing to note is the Batch Number on the powder bottle, try and buy all the same batch number but if you change batches you will need to re-test your powder loads by dropping the weight and incease it to match your old load. ADI do test powder batch lots when there is a change of batch since the raw materials used to make a powder batch are not the same. This is the only form of testing that ADI perform and that difference can be up to 3.0% or the batch is rejected. Something to be very careful of if you are using hot loads near maximum as they could turn out 3.0% hotter. This information comes from a friend who was the person responsible for the testing at ADI in the Mulwala factory.

[Baronvonrort]

So I am trying to understand the cross referencing thing… And matching values so to speak, to make sure I have a consistent starting load for a given projectile and, say, large rifle primer. In this example, I am looking at 165r bonded SP (e.g. http://www.woodleighbullets.com.au/imag ... pp_new.jpg).

I assume safest is the lowest load, 38.5gr, but that just doesn’t seem right compared to other values. Which one do I chose? Why? And is there something better to cross reference?

Thanks!

While it's good you're asking about cross referencing powders'it only comes into play when you run out and have to try something else.

ADI make their powder in Australia, it doesn't stay on the shelf for long so it's always fairly fresh.
If you look at the ADI graph newsteadvic posted it shows 2208 gives good velocity at max loads not too shabby at minimum loads with pressures being ok
Max load is 46.0C grains, the C means this is a compressed load- like trying to fit 104% into 100% capacity,the case could be full before you get to 46 gr so you might wonder how to fit the rest in,the C tells you.
I would suggest 2208 as a good powder to start with,my opinion is sometimes having safe max loads that are compressed a little are safer than max loads that can be overfilled by accident.

Benchmark 8208 is another good powder,the pressures are in PSI instead of CUP, at minimum loads around 49,000 psi you might be getting close to the Youngs Modulus of Stainless and Chrome Moly, at max loads around 60,000 psi you are over the Youngs Modulus for those barrel materials,at least the duration is short.
I use the Benchmark 8208 with 53-55 gr in .223 and up to 75 gr projectile in .243.

[juststarting]

I got 2208, I am not even thinking about max loads yet. Slowly, slowly...

[happyhunter]

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[Oldbloke]

2208 is a good choice. Very versatile, I load 223 & 3006 with good results. Just stick to the ADI load data and you cant go far wrong.
Do you know any one who can help you to start?

[juststarting]

Yep

[Tiiger]

In some cases they retain the original name and for others they change the name to their own (reason unknown).

Probably just adding another product to the line-up (artificially) for more "choice" and sales.