The "What Powder is this" Game.

[brett1868]

Been having some grief getting consistent results from the Green 1/2". I have been corresponding with the boys at ADI and getting nowhere fast. So, tonight I sacrificed a 50BMG factory round and a reload. Stupid me stuffed a perfectly good projectile cause I could have just measured out the powder from the AR2218 bottle rather then pull a reload apart. I convinced myself that I was testing ways to pull big projectiles without stuffing them...but failed Twice!!

The Hornady "Factory" shell I'm lead to believe was part of the first shipment of 50Cal ammo into Australia for the sale to civilians boxed and branded as Hornady. From what I've found out, it's not actually made by Hornady but by Winchester for U.S military sniper operations. WCC = Western Cartridge Company which was bought out years ago by Winchester. Crimped and sealed primers are a dead giveaway of military intention along with the year of manufacture and it's well documented that snipers are using the Hornady AMAX projectiles on personnel. It comes in packs of 10 so it was never intended for belt fed auto's.

Head Stamp - WSS is the Hornady factory round

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Now I established the heritage of the round I'm trying to figure out what powder they are using, initial searching points to it possibly being Vectan SP-2 made by Nobel but I'm hoping others can confirm if this may or may not be right.

Factory powder of unknown maker - 233gr

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ADI AR2218 for comparison - I'm curious why the grain size is so different,

ADI AR2218 - 233gr

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Volumes appear similar but massive difference in grain size.

Similar in volume at a rough look

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Gotta admire a projectile this big...The pointy end kills while the blunt end kicks.

An eye opener on the sheer size of the 750gr AMAX. 338 lap case to the left and 308 Win to the right.

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Anyone got experience with Nobel powders that may be able to shed some light on what this powder it? Any surefire way to compare burn rates? Was thinking to place 50gr of each in a bowl and measure burn time with a stopwatch a few times to confirm if they are the same rate or different. Ideas, comments and advice always welcome

[<<Genesis93>>]

What was the question??

So Hornady packaged are WCC cases? With Amax.... so Hornady are/were using WCC brass.... and loading for contract to US Mil I take it..) Extra went to market...? Interesting.... now theyre doing their own 50 cases...

AMAX on personel... why not, theyre not sold as expanding;

Hague, '99:

To prohibit the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope, of which the envelope does not entirely cover the core or is pierced with incisions.

Are you trying to locate the original ball powder to achieve more consistency?? I dont think it necessarily more consistent than the ADI product... more difficult and costly to procure.... so if it was me, I'd stick with the stick (<pun) and make sure the loads are as consistent as possible once a sweet spot was found.

As far as ADI helping, responses I've received previously indicates the testing is done in USA, not Aus, not sure if that covers all chamberings... so dont expect huge amounts of tech from the Aussie side... maybe an email/call to Hodgddgdgdgdon

As far as burning and timing.... dont waste the powder/money/time, its the pressure characteristics more so than the burn/deflagration rate that results with the ..... results.... and how it behaves un-contained compared to contained (in chamber) is totally different temp/pressure/flame wise.... a stop watch will tell you nuffin.

[Gwion]

Only thing i can think of is fraught with possible danger, so not a good idea.
Never the less:
I was thinking perhaps loading both powders (separately) in a smaller cartridge with equal, safe, "starting" loads. Measure velocity of the ball powder first, not looking for anything but a velocity reading. Then match the load exactly with various powders; brass, bullet, seating, charge weight, primer; keep testing velocities until you find a match. Use the smallest practicable cartridge to test to save powder.

Getting a safe start charge with the ball powder would be a bit hairy... hence my initial disclaimer on this idea: ie: PROBABLY SHOULDN'T DO IT.........

Might need to get velocity readings of both you rounds before trying this, to add into the equation... somehow.... so you can decide on a safe mild load in the smaller cartridge that will work across a number of powders in the burn rate 'region'.

As i said, probably not good, but an idea to get the old cogs moving.....

[brett1868]

I've run both loads over the chronograph in 2 different rifles shooting 5 shots of each load.

Barrett M95
Factory 2730fps E.S 85
Reload 2717fps E.S 58

TAC-50
Factory 2756fps E.S 53
Reload 2728fps E.S 137

Velocities are all very similar but I've got pressure signs using reloads in the TAC-50 which is why I'm trying to figure out what the factory powder is. I've already loaded some rounds using 210gr and 215gr charges which I'll test in a couple weeks. I will also use the Hornady load manuals COAL of 5.730" instead of the ADI COAL of 5.45"

ADI load data is a maximum of 233gr AR2218 with a COAL of 5.45"
Where as the Hornady manual shows a maximum of 214.9gr of H50BMG which is either the same powder or an equivalent of AR2218 with a COAL of 5.730"

A big difference between the listed loads even taking into account a possible 5% variation. I consider an 18.1gr charge difference between what are essentially the same powder a bit strange. As usual I'll err on the side of caution and try 210Gr AR2218 and 5.730" COAL and see what the chronograph tells me.

[COLLECTOR 1]

Hi guys.....

Now im no 50BMG expert, but I reckon that ball powder may be Winchester ????....I use 748 and 760 a lot and it looks real similar...and I do know that Winchester do a fee Magnum type powders that we dont see often here in Australia

Collector 1

[Gwion]

I guess your next step is as you suggest. Try the new COAL and see what happens to velocity and pressure.

These charge weights are way out of my experience, but agree that 28gn (odd) difference is a lot, even in such a large cartridge.

[brett1868]

Hi guys.....

Now im no 50BMG expert, but I reckon that ball powder may be Winchester ????....I use 748 and 760 a lot and it looks real similar...and I do know that Winchester do a fee Magnum type powders that we dont see often here in Australia

Collector 1

I was thinking that it should be a Winchester powder since they assembled the round but they have nothing in their range slow enough. I then looked at US869 but the pellet shape is different so back to Google images...

[happyhunter]

This is my old version from 95. The latest version sasa is probably online somewhere and should detail the AMAX load.

[Gregg]

Was the last photo taken in front of a funhouse mirror?

Something about it is playing tricks on my eyes.

[newsteadvic]

Hodgdon h870/WC860?

[Wheelbarrow]

WC872 or WC867?