Case / Brass Prep problem with Winchester Brass

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Case / Brass Prep problem with Winchester Brass

Post by petemacsydney » 04 Apr 2016, 9:39 am

Hi all
I've been reloading 308 fed premium cases for quite a while now and have great results with brass / case prep.
I use the Lee case length trimmer first followed by the "Lyman Case Preparation Xpress Center" for chamfering and cleaning pockets etc.
so far most of my fed prem's have anywhere from 3-5 reloads with no issues.
Recently a mate gave me a bunch of Winchester brass. Got no idea what the original round was, but its just standard 308 brass at a cheap price.
So i case length trimmed it first and then went over to the Case Prep Center for chamfering.
My brass chamfers really well, but this stuff was really rough and came out with nasty little jags and burrs. Whilst I am sure it wouldn't damage the action i decided it was crap so i threw most of it away. i tried annealing first to see if that made a difference and it didn't. I checked with a magnet to make sure it was not steel case and it wasn't, I did some of my other brass again to make sure the tool was not damaged and it wasn't. This has me perplexed - why does my fed premium chamfer so well, but the Winchester brass looks like crap and feels really rough on the chamfer angles.
Any idea's guys? Maybe its just a sh*t batch of brass?
cheers n thanks! pete
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Re: Case / Brass Prep problem with Winchester Brass

Post by Wm.Traynor » 04 Apr 2016, 1:59 pm

If the Win stuff was way over length and needed a lot of trimming, the result could be a lot of burrs around the mouths. If that is true, then maybe they were only given your usual deburr, which might not have been enough. Sorry that sounds so inconclusive.

On the subject of your case life; why are you only getting 3-5 reloads?
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Re: Case / Brass Prep problem with Winchester Brass

Post by petemacsydney » 04 Apr 2016, 3:38 pm

thx WM, i think i know what you mean, Case length trim was standard trim (not much), but i didn't check for inside case burrs before i chamferred - havent needed to in the past so old habits and that i guess - you could be onto something. weird, very weird..

in terms of reloads, the only reason i'm getting up to 5 reloads is that i haven't reloaded any of them for the sixth time yet ;-). I've got quite a lot of 308 brass so i just haven't needed to reload for the sixth time yet... but it's due soon!! i plan to reload as long as the cases are in good nic
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Re: Case / Brass Prep problem with Winchester Brass

Post by No1Mk3 » 04 Apr 2016, 3:54 pm

G'day petemacsydney,
Different alloy compositions will give different results of surface finish from machining operations such as you have performed. To get optimum results may require variations in your procedures. I have an entirely opposite view to yours, considering Fed brass to be utter garbage, based more on primer pocket sizes, and Win (modern) to be good. If you ever feel the need to throw away any Win brass in future, give us a hoy! Cheers.
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Re: Case / Brass Prep problem with Winchester Brass

Post by petemacsydney » 05 Apr 2016, 7:50 am

Interesting. Will do. Thx mate



No1Mk3 wrote:G'day petemacsydney,
Different alloy compositions will give different results of surface finish from machining operations such as you have performed. To get optimum results may require variations in your procedures. I have an entirely opposite view to yours, considering Fed brass to be utter garbage, based more on primer pocket sizes, and Win (modern) to be good. If you ever feel the need to throw away any Win brass in future, give us a hoy! Cheers.
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Re: Case / Brass Prep problem with Winchester Brass

Post by AusC » 05 Apr 2016, 11:02 am

petemacsydney wrote:in terms of reloads, the only reason i'm getting up to 5 reloads is that i haven't reloaded any of them for the sixth time yet ;-)


Plenty more life left in them then if you treat them right :thumbsup:
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Re: Case / Brass Prep problem with Winchester Brass

Post by petemacsydney » 05 Apr 2016, 8:44 pm

AusC wrote:
petemacsydney wrote:in terms of reloads, the only reason i'm getting up to 5 reloads is that i haven't reloaded any of them for the sixth time yet ;-)


Plenty more life left in them then if you treat them right :thumbsup:



when do you guys anneal? i haven't annealed them yet. was planning to soon.
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Re: Case / Brass Prep problem with Winchester Brass

Post by happyhunter » 06 Apr 2016, 6:48 am

I load federal and winchester cases for the 308 and find once fired factory cases stretch a lot in my guns requiring a lot of trimming.

Are you drill mounting the lee trimmer? It might be jamming the cutter up with swarf causing the rough cut. I replaced my lee trimmer with a hornady camlock trimmer and wished I did it years ago.
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Re: Case / Brass Prep problem with Winchester Brass

Post by petemacsydney » 06 Apr 2016, 10:15 am

yeah drill trim for case length then onto the prep center for chamfer etc.
works fine on the fed premium. maybe win would benefit from a better tool set.
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Re: Case / Brass Prep problem with Winchester Brass

Post by happyhunter » 07 Apr 2016, 7:53 am

Maybe try running the drill at very low speed or run in intermittently to allow time for the contact surface between case mouth and cutter to cool.
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Re: Case / Brass Prep problem with Winchester Brass

Post by petemacsydney » 07 Apr 2016, 3:04 pm

cool, thx will do
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Re: Case / Brass Prep problem with Winchester Brass

Post by Wobble » 14 Apr 2016, 11:32 am

petemacsydney wrote:when do you guys anneal? i haven't annealed them yet. was planning to soon.


Depends how serious you want to be.

Technically every firing hardens the brass, it would be "best" to anneal every time and people do. Personally that's waaaaaay to much effort for me to ever be bothered with :lol:

For the less fanatical among us between every 3 and 5 firings is common.
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Re: Case / Brass Prep problem with Winchester Brass

Post by petemacsydney » 14 Apr 2016, 1:39 pm

Thanks, 3-5 sounds more like my kind of timing ;-)

Do you use a temperature paste or just wing it and hope the temp is right based on the glow of the metal?
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Re: Case / Brass Prep problem with Winchester Brass

Post by Wm.Traynor » 14 Apr 2016, 1:55 pm

petemacsydney wrote:thanks, 3-5 sounds more like my kind of timing ;-)
do you use a temperature paste or just wing it and hope the temp is right based on the glow of the metal?


What a good question.

Anything I have read or watched makes annealing sound very difficult. The old blowtorch-and-pan-of-water-method that I heard about years ago, is now supposed to be dodgy for timing and temperature reasons.
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Re: Case / Brass Prep problem with Winchester Brass

Post by TheDude » 14 Apr 2016, 5:30 pm

I use a bench source annealing machine that I setup using tempilac paint on some junk cases before I do a batch.

Check out skips annealing machine on YouTube if you've got a lot of cases and want to make your own.
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Re: Case / Brass Prep problem with Winchester Brass

Post by Hercl » 26 Apr 2016, 4:28 pm

Wm.Traynor wrote:Anything I have read or watched makes annealing sound very difficult.


I wouldn't say annealing is difficult, but half-assing it absolutely is.

The process is straight forward, heating brass to X temperature for Y seconds will soften it by Z.

There isn't a single formula, rather a small window where successful annealing will occur, as a little higher temperature for less time will effectively achieve the same result as a little lower temperature for more time.

Fail to reach the minimum temperature to induce metallurgical change and nothing will happen.

Reach a temperature where change will take effect but fail to maintain it for long enough and you'll get a sub-optimal or insignificant amount of change.

Heat brass too high, regardless of time, and it will be too soft to safely use.

The neck also needs to be heated high/fast enough to anneal in only a few seconds so the heat doesn't through the whole case. Anneal your body/head and you'll have made the case unusable, same as above.

I'm sure you'd agree you can't realistically expect to consistently hit all the right points by winging it, heating it with a gas torch until the glow is "about right".

Most annealing machines run at about 400c for 2.5 seconds. Or some suitable variation of this.

If you bought or built a quality annealing machine annealing is easy.

Or, Tempilaq (and others no doubt) do a 399c (750f) paint, with this you should be able to do a passably consistent job.

People don't want to do any of that though, they just want to crack out the gas torch and baking tray full of water, do it cheap, and do it now.
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Re: Case / Brass Prep problem with Winchester Brass

Post by Wm.Traynor » 26 Apr 2016, 7:00 pm

Point taken, Hercl. Food for thought and thanks for posting :)
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Re: Case / Brass Prep problem with Winchester Brass

Post by Hercl » 27 Apr 2016, 1:14 pm

No worries.
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