Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

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Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by juststarting » 12 May 2016, 11:28 am

I am noticing that when I tumble cases .223 and .308 using walnut media in a little baby tumbler, the cases come out shiny shoulders down. However, the neck still has carbon/burn residue. Especially, the area where the shoulder and the neck meets.

I have a drill adapter, that I can use to lock the cases in and go over them with steel wool to get it really, really pretty - but doing that in 100 batches is mind numbing annoying.

I would have thought that it should come out all clean, can someone suggest why this is happening and perhaps some other media I should be using? I don't want to replace the tumbler just yet.
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by brett1868 » 12 May 2016, 12:23 pm

I used the Lyman treated corn cob media which did a reasonably good job. How long you tumbling them for?
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by Apollo » 12 May 2016, 12:47 pm

First up, I use a product called "Bondall Ballistol Pure Oil" to wipe off the carbon from case necks. A little on a soft rag and give the neck a wipe. It works best if it's done as soon as possible after the round has been fired whilst the carbon is still soft but even days later it will remove 90% odd or better. Ballistol is available from a number of places including Bunnings but may have to be ordered. It's not really cheap, about $25 for a 500ml tin. Also available as an Aerosol.

I've done cases that are many years old and it still does a great job. Also use it on a Chamber Mop to clean any carbon from a chamber and/or the throat area where carbon can build up if not treated. Called a carbon ring.

I then put the cases is my tumbler with treated corn cob media, many years old and has had several washings then re-treated with Lyman Brite. Tumbled overnight or say 6-8 hours and they come out mirror finished. The tumbling time would be far less with new and more agressive media that's not worn out like mine is.
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by brett1868 » 12 May 2016, 12:54 pm

I used to give mine 3-4 hrs in the corn cob. Now they get 3hrs in the pin tumbler, a rinse with filtered tap water, a quick tumble in an old towel to dry the outside then into the food dryer overnight. End result is a case that looks brand new inside and out, I'll take some before and after pics when I get some dirty brass.
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by juststarting » 12 May 2016, 12:55 pm

Thanks Apollo, will try some of that. Though I don't process used cases within days, maybe weeks, but not days.

Brett, once fired cases. Tumbled for approximately 2.5 - 3 hours in green corn cob media.
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by brett1868 » 12 May 2016, 1:27 pm

Brett, once fired cases. Tumbled for approximately 2.5 - 3 hours in green corn cob media.


I'd have thought 3hrs was plenty, maybe run them another 2-3 hours and see if they improve.
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by WayneO » 12 May 2016, 9:40 pm

Try washing them in Hot water with a teaspoon of dish washing liquid and a teaspoon of tartaric acid. Leave to soak for about 10 minutes and then mix them around for a few minutes. I used to use an old 5L paint drum, close the lid nice and tight and shake the daylights out of it.
Empty them out and leave to dry over night. Then leave them in the tumbler for the day.
That gets them very near to spotless and it cleans the primer pockets and flash holes.
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by David Brown » 12 May 2016, 10:14 pm

I ultrasonic them for 10-15 minutes first, dry them then corn cob tumble for a couple of hours. This keeps the first round of muck out of the tumbler and does an excellent job.
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by deye243 » 12 May 2016, 10:35 pm

go stainless it cleans all the best bits , primer pockets and in side as well

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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by Gwion » 12 May 2016, 10:45 pm

deye243 wrote:go stainless it cleans all the best bits , primer pockets and in side as well


Everytime i go to order a stainless tumbler, another bloody expense comes up to take priority! :thumbsdown: :silent:
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by BadCompany » 13 May 2016, 6:04 pm

If you are putting too many cases in at once it won't clean them. Try half the number you've put in before.

You mentioned it's green media, so by that I assume it's pretty new? If not, change it out for some fresh stuff.

If the above doesn't work it'll probably be just easier to get the stainless pins wet tumbler option. As the others said, it's the best method once you're set up. Cleans everywhere leaving new - like cases and everyone loves shiny brass.
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by BadCompany » 13 May 2016, 6:04 pm

If you are putting too many cases in at once it won't clean them. Try half the number you've put in before.

You mentioned it's green media, so by that I assume it's pretty new? If not, change it out for some fresh stuff.

If the above doesn't work it'll probably be just easier to get the stainless pins wet tumbler option. As the others said, it's the best method once you're set up. Cleans everywhere leaving new - like cases and everyone loves shiny brass.
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by juststarting » 13 May 2016, 6:18 pm

BadCompany, I have considered that, too many cases, last time I dropped maybe 40 cases with brand-new media.

I'll try reducing the number, maybe 30 .308 cases and clean media, if that's a no go, then I might have to consider a new tumbler. Really want to avoid that, though... See how we go.
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by Apollo » 13 May 2016, 6:27 pm

My Tumbler is a Lyman 1200 and I put in about 50 308 type cases at a time. My media is black so it's pretty old and hence my overnight tumble time. With fresh media it should be shorter.

Other than the Ballistol story I mentioned leave them in the tumber for twice the time you are using at present and see what happens. You aren't going to hurt anything.
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by TheDude » 13 May 2016, 7:26 pm

the stainless pin wet tumbler is a bit of an outlay but well worth it for nice shiny brass. I bought a thumblers tumbler which i often do over a 100 45/70 cases at time in. even with black powder fouled cases 2 hours in the tumbler gets looking like new.

You can even make your own. my Brother in law made one like this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bXLq_9CW4c. seen a few others using old treadmills and PVC pipe.
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by Apollo » 13 May 2016, 7:54 pm

I know we are getting off topic with the stainless pins tumblers since that is not what the OP's question was.

Then we talk about Brasso and Ammonia stripping copper out of brass cases.

But what of the idea that soft brass cases are being tossed around with satinless steel pins and how does that system polish..?? By removing not only the dirt and grime but how much brass do the stainless pins remove from a case.. ??

Just a thought..!!

I'd like to measure a case before and after very accurately and see if it's removing brass.
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by headspace » 13 May 2016, 8:44 pm

I'm only interested in getting as much of the crud (carbon) out of the cases and primer pockets as I can so I just use an ultrasonic jobbie. Don't cram too much in and let it hum away for up to 15 minutes. The bog in the bottom of the pan gives you a good idea of how grubby your brass was. Eye searing bright brass does not increase accuracy. I let them dry with their bums in the air in a rack I made out of water proof ply with a towel underneath. Works for me. I'd rather not have a mob of poins belting the daylight out of my brass, nor do I fancy having lumps of corn cob or walnut shells getting around in there.
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by brett1868 » 13 May 2016, 9:23 pm

Apollo wrote:I know we are getting off topic with the stainless pins tumblers since that is not what the OP's question was.

Then we talk about Brasso and Ammonia stripping copper out of brass cases.

But what of the idea that soft brass cases are being tossed around with satinless steel pins and how does that system polish..?? By removing not only the dirt and grime but how much brass do the stainless pins remove from a case.. ??

Just a thought..!!

I'd like to measure a case before and after very accurately and see if it's removing brass.


Pins remove no more or less case metal than any other method of tumbling. Given an average case life of 10-15 reloads you'll be scrapping the case long before tumbling has any impact. I[ve done the corn cob, the Ultrasonic and now the pin style of case cleaning and the pins are by far the best of the bunch. The only possible downside I can see using the rotary pin tumbler is having the cases banging into each other causing work hardening where as the vibratory method is less rough. I have noticed on the bigger cases that the lip can get out of shape or flattened a little which is why I chamfer & deburr post tumbling.

I'd have to ask why is the OP's brass so carbon encrusted to begin with? Maybe some other issue there, allowing a greater then usual amount of blowback. I've noticed that the sloppier the chamber the dirtier the brass, with the same load through 2 pistols, the Glock fired brass is dirtier then the Beretta.

How old is the brass? How many cycles? Neck sized or FLRS? Powder type? Load data? - Curious if others using similar loads have the same issues with carbon.
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by Apollo » 14 May 2016, 12:04 am

Hey Brett, great post and thanks for the time to post the thoughts.

The case material was just a thought and maybe because I get a little over the top at times being able to measure 0.00005" plus thinking my average case life I consider at better than 30 reloads, perhaps way more if I look after the cases.

I don't think pins would have any influence on work hardening since that requires the brass to actually be worked. ie expended & contracted many times.

Then you bring me to a thought. Two points. First is that a lot of people FLS cases every reloading and in a lot of cases way to much so they work the cases way too much. Some of those are very precision shooters but I also think they are also those that anneal their cases every reloading..

Now with most of my calibres, if they be Winchester, Nosler, Sako or even Lapua I only FLS once when I start with a case, then just maybe after at least a dozen firings but that depends on measurements and how they chamber. I don't ever use high end loads in any form of shooting / calibre because I find that the most accurate and consistant loads are those on the bottom end of reloading powder weights / pressures. I'd be lucky to measure 0.0005" case expansion anywhere after many firings following initial case chamber fire forming to that chamber.

You mention excess carbon, so that brings the point of neck sizing using standard dies which probably in that view is over reducing a neck and creating to much expansion. A point for my use of bushing dies in just about every calibre I play with including the humble .22 Hornet. I don't ever work necks a great deal and / or use a great deal of neck tension so my neck sizes with a loaded bullet is giving a least amount of possible expansion. Very noticable on my target rounds with tight neck clearance that barely show any if at all carbon after firing.

If you have carbon tracking down past half neck length to even up the case shoulder then you have an issue in my view that needs to be addressed. A trace down to the shoulder should only be that, a very light trace but all this points to a possible of over pressure loads, loose chambers, case necks too thin and quite a number of other reasons not really good.

There's lots to this reloading story and it takes time to learn all the tricks plus discover your faults / flaws and fine tuning.

BTW

Bright shiny cases are the easiest to pick faults with like the very first sign of a crack anywhere, plus they keep your dies and rifle chamber clean of fouling. Consistant reloading brings accuracy.

Each to their own...
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by juststarting » 14 May 2016, 11:03 am

brett1868 wrote:How old is the brass? How many cycles? Neck sized or FLRS? Powder type? Load data? - Curious if others using similar loads have the same issues with carbon.


Once fired PPU .223 cases. Purchased purely to run the barrel in and reuse cases.

Once fired.

Resizing: N/A - haven't reloades yet, usually neck only

Load data: N/A - haven't reloaded yet.

Generally, I've noticed that I only get this mess with PPU, they seem to burn dirty or something. I don't get this mess with my hand loads (I have 308 for comparison, I haven't loaded any .223 yet).
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by Apollo » 14 May 2016, 11:44 am

I haven't had anything to do with PPU Cases other than a few 30-30W that a mate owns and I have reloaded some time back.

I'm wondering if the cases may be a little hard / thick in the necks and perhaps not expanding as well as should be expected. Maybe the factory annealing is not up to scratch and they may seal better if they were annealed.

I have a number of brands of .223R Cases but no PPU. Like CJ (Norinco China), FC (Federal), LC (Lake City), ADI (Aussie Defence), RP (Remington), Winchester and Lapua. Don't think I've had any problems with any of these but they haven't been reloaded more than once after initial firing ie once fired. Some of my odd n sod cases have been reloaded numerous times as these are what I use to test a new load or bullet to get a starting point then move onto a batch I want to use.

The Lapua I don't take hunting / varminting and are for target / range use only with my heavy target bullets. I don't mind if I loose any of the other brands if I happen to drop one at night and can't find it easily.
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by TheDude » 14 May 2016, 5:26 pm

i've noticed a bit of carbon around the necks on PPU factory loads in 7.5x55, 7.62x54R and 303 but usually only the first 1/3 of the neck. the brass is good but i do anneal after first firing so i've got a more consistent starting point for neck tension.
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by auriga3 » 18 Sep 2016, 12:10 pm

I put my dirty cases in a cheesecloth bag & put them in the washing machine when the longhaired is not looking.Then after the wash empty them out in the sun on a tray,when dry i put them in the tumbler with corncob media seems to do a good job.
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by BBJ » 19 Sep 2016, 10:12 am

Apollo wrote:Maybe the factory annealing is not up to scratch and they may seal better if they were annealed.


I can't help but think it's just their alloy mix.

I don't know what is different about the mix metallurgically, but the look/feel of it is significantly different to Rem, Win, etc.
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by ob1 » 20 Sep 2016, 2:02 pm

Give the necks a squirt of carby cleaner to shift the carbon.
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by dpskipper » 20 Sep 2016, 2:28 pm

Apollo wrote:I haven't had anything to do with PPU Cases other than a few 30-30W that a mate owns and I have reloaded some time back.

I'm wondering if the cases may be a little hard / thick in the necks and perhaps not expanding as well as should be expected. Maybe the factory annealing is not up to scratch and they may seal better if they were annealed.

I have a number of brands of .223R Cases but no PPU. Like CJ (Norinco China), FC (Federal), LC (Lake City), ADI (Aussie Defence), RP (Remington), Winchester and Lapua. Don't think I've had any problems with any of these but they haven't been reloaded more than once after initial firing ie once fired. Some of my odd n sod cases have been reloaded numerous times as these are what I use to test a new load or bullet to get a starting point then move onto a batch I want to use.

The Lapua I don't take hunting / varminting and are for target / range use only with my heavy target bullets. I don't mind if I loose any of the other brands if I happen to drop one at night and can't find it easily.


I use PPU for my 308 its ok cheap stuff. But I would not use it on a proper gun. I've been using it for months and only had one misfire. Don't know how common those are but thats my experience.
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by Xerox » 29 Sep 2016, 1:41 pm

BBJ wrote:I don't know what is different about the mix metallurgically, but the look/feel of it is significantly different to Rem, Win, etc.


It looks like the brass has been painted on with shiny paint.
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by Mulder030 » 01 May 2017, 12:42 pm

I know this is a old thread but didn't want to start a new one for the same topic.

Whilst watching Youtube video's I noticed people putting some liquid cleaner (like polisher) in with the media on the tumbler. Non of them are a brand I am familiar with being on the Australia shelf. Does anyone add a form of polisher to there tumbler to bring the shine up??
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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by juststarting » 01 May 2017, 1:18 pm

Liquid they put in is just strong detergent, Australian brand equivalent is 'Fairy Platinum' dishwashing liquid (Woolies). You need a minuscule amount, maybe a tea spoon.
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Powder they put in (Lemi Shine), is Citric Acid (baking section of any supermarket ($3 I believe) - maybe half to one of a .22 case worth by volume. Less is more.
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Don't buy into the gimmick here, it is Citric Acid, in case you're after science to my response lol http://www.chemistry-blog.com/2012/05/18/whats-in-lemi-shine/

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Re: Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

Post by Mulder030 » 01 May 2017, 1:45 pm

juststarting wrote:Liquid they put in is just strong detergent, Australian brand equivalent is 'Fairy Platinum' dishwashing liquid (Woolies). You need a minuscule amount, maybe a tea spoon.

Powder they put in (Lemi Shine), is Citric Acid (baking section of any supermarket ($3 I believe) - maybe half to one of a .22 case worth by volume. Less is more.

Don't buy into the gimmick here, it is Citric Acid, in case you're after science to my response lol http://www.chemistry-blog.com/2012/05/18/whats-in-lemi-shine/

...and remember, don't listen to the nay sayers, they know nothing. Shiny shoots better!



Thank you Juststarting, Will tick up the Mrs shopping list now. hahahaha
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