Tumbling cases doesn't fully clean them, why?

[Apollo]

Hey Brett, great post and thanks for the time to post the thoughts.

The case material was just a thought and maybe because I get a little over the top at times being able to measure 0.00005" plus thinking my average case life I consider at better than 30 reloads, perhaps way more if I look after the cases.

I don't think pins would have any influence on work hardening since that requires the brass to actually be worked. ie expended & contracted many times.

Then you bring me to a thought. Two points. First is that a lot of people FLS cases every reloading and in a lot of cases way to much so they work the cases way too much. Some of those are very precision shooters but I also think they are also those that anneal their cases every reloading..

Now with most of my calibres, if they be Winchester, Nosler, Sako or even Lapua I only FLS once when I start with a case, then just maybe after at least a dozen firings but that depends on measurements and how they chamber. I don't ever use high end loads in any form of shooting / calibre because I find that the most accurate and consistant loads are those on the bottom end of reloading powder weights / pressures. I'd be lucky to measure 0.0005" case expansion anywhere after many firings following initial case chamber fire forming to that chamber.

You mention excess carbon, so that brings the point of neck sizing using standard dies which probably in that view is over reducing a neck and creating to much expansion. A point for my use of bushing dies in just about every calibre I play with including the humble .22 Hornet. I don't ever work necks a great deal and / or use a great deal of neck tension so my neck sizes with a loaded bullet is giving a least amount of possible expansion. Very noticable on my target rounds with tight neck clearance that barely show any if at all carbon after firing.

If you have carbon tracking down past half neck length to even up the case shoulder then you have an issue in my view that needs to be addressed. A trace down to the shoulder should only be that, a very light trace but all this points to a possible of over pressure loads, loose chambers, case necks too thin and quite a number of other reasons not really good.

There's lots to this reloading story and it takes time to learn all the tricks plus discover your faults / flaws and fine tuning.

BTW

Bright shiny cases are the easiest to pick faults with like the very first sign of a crack anywhere, plus they keep your dies and rifle chamber clean of fouling. Consistant reloading brings accuracy.

Each to their own...

[juststarting]

How old is the brass? How many cycles? Neck sized or FLRS? Powder type? Load data? - Curious if others using similar loads have the same issues with carbon.

Once fired PPU .223 cases. Purchased purely to run the barrel in and reuse cases.

Once fired.

Resizing: N/A - haven't reloades yet, usually neck only

Load data: N/A - haven't reloaded yet.

Generally, I've noticed that I only get this mess with PPU, they seem to burn dirty or something. I don't get this mess with my hand loads (I have 308 for comparison, I haven't loaded any .223 yet).

[Apollo]

I haven't had anything to do with PPU Cases other than a few 30-30W that a mate owns and I have reloaded some time back.

I'm wondering if the cases may be a little hard / thick in the necks and perhaps not expanding as well as should be expected. Maybe the factory annealing is not up to scratch and they may seal better if they were annealed.

I have a number of brands of .223R Cases but no PPU. Like CJ (Norinco China), FC (Federal), LC (Lake City), ADI (Aussie Defence), RP (Remington), Winchester and Lapua. Don't think I've had any problems with any of these but they haven't been reloaded more than once after initial firing ie once fired. Some of my odd n sod cases have been reloaded numerous times as these are what I use to test a new load or bullet to get a starting point then move onto a batch I want to use.

The Lapua I don't take hunting / varminting and are for target / range use only with my heavy target bullets. I don't mind if I loose any of the other brands if I happen to drop one at night and can't find it easily.

[TheDude]

i've noticed a bit of carbon around the necks on PPU factory loads in 7.5x55, 7.62x54R and 303 but usually only the first 1/3 of the neck. the brass is good but i do anneal after first firing so i've got a more consistent starting point for neck tension.

[auriga3]

I put my dirty cases in a cheesecloth bag & put them in the washing machine when the longhaired is not looking.Then after the wash empty them out in the sun on a tray,when dry i put them in the tumbler with corncob media seems to do a good job.

[BBJ]

Maybe the factory annealing is not up to scratch and they may seal better if they were annealed.

I can't help but think it's just their alloy mix.

I don't know what is different about the mix metallurgically, but the look/feel of it is significantly different to Rem, Win, etc.

[ob1]

Give the necks a squirt of carby cleaner to shift the carbon.

[dpskipper]

I haven't had anything to do with PPU Cases other than a few 30-30W that a mate owns and I have reloaded some time back.

I'm wondering if the cases may be a little hard / thick in the necks and perhaps not expanding as well as should be expected. Maybe the factory annealing is not up to scratch and they may seal better if they were annealed.

I have a number of brands of .223R Cases but no PPU. Like CJ (Norinco China), FC (Federal), LC (Lake City), ADI (Aussie Defence), RP (Remington), Winchester and Lapua. Don't think I've had any problems with any of these but they haven't been reloaded more than once after initial firing ie once fired. Some of my odd n sod cases have been reloaded numerous times as these are what I use to test a new load or bullet to get a starting point then move onto a batch I want to use.

The Lapua I don't take hunting / varminting and are for target / range use only with my heavy target bullets. I don't mind if I loose any of the other brands if I happen to drop one at night and can't find it easily.

I use PPU for my 308 its ok cheap stuff. But I would not use it on a proper gun. I've been using it for months and only had one misfire. Don't know how common those are but thats my experience.

[Xerox]

I don't know what is different about the mix metallurgically, but the look/feel of it is significantly different to Rem, Win, etc.

It looks like the brass has been painted on with shiny paint.

[Mulder030]

I know this is a old thread but didn't want to start a new one for the same topic.

Whilst watching Youtube video's I noticed people putting some liquid cleaner (like polisher) in with the media on the tumbler. Non of them are a brand I am familiar with being on the Australia shelf. Does anyone add a form of polisher to there tumbler to bring the shine up??

[juststarting]

Liquid they put in is just strong detergent, Australian brand equivalent is 'Fairy Platinum' dishwashing liquid (Woolies). You need a minuscule amount, maybe a tea spoon.


Powder they put in (Lemi Shine), is Citric Acid (baking section of any supermarket ($3 I believe) - maybe half to one of a .22 case worth by volume. Less is more.

Don't buy into the gimmick here, it is Citric Acid, in case you're after science to my response lol http://www.chemistry-blog.com/2012/05/18/whats-in-lemi-shine/

...and remember, don't listen to the nay sayers, they know nothing. Shiny shoots better!

[Mulder030]

Liquid they put in is just strong detergent, Australian brand equivalent is 'Fairy Platinum' dishwashing liquid (Woolies). You need a minuscule amount, maybe a tea spoon.

Powder they put in (Lemi Shine), is Citric Acid (baking section of any supermarket ($3 I believe) - maybe half to one of a .22 case worth by volume. Less is more.

Don't buy into the gimmick here, it is Citric Acid, in case you're after science to my response lol http://www.chemistry-blog.com/2012/05/18/whats-in-lemi-shine/

...and remember, don't listen to the nay sayers, they know nothing. Shiny shoots better!

Thank you Juststarting, Will tick up the Mrs shopping list now. hahahaha
Makes me smile more when i have a shinny finish product.

[Oldbloke]

Shiny wastes your time and cash.

[juststarting]

Lies! OB! Lies, you just want everyone to have messy ammo, while yours are way shiny and therefore shoot better.

[Oldbloke]

[vmaxaust]

[quote="juststarting"]I am noticing that when I tumble cases .223 and .308 using walnut media in a little baby tumbler, the cases come out shiny shoulders down. However, the neck still has carbon/burn residue. Especially, the area where the shoulder and the neck meets.

Stainless, pins, water and real burnishing compound is the only thing that will do the job correctly. I use a tumbler from aussiesapphire.com.au and their burnishing compound. Lyman has a good pin tumbler as well.

I have a large and medium sized tumbler drum. The smaller one does a few hundred 223 or 100-150 303 cases and up to 300-350 9mm or 200 or so 45ACP cases.
The large drum will do about 600 x 223, 400 x 303, 1000 x 9mm and 600 x 45ACP at least. Smaller loads take less time. For example, doing 200 x 223 takes one to a maximum of one and a half hours in the small drum. Same time for the others I've mentioned. In fact I never, ever run longer than 1 1/2 hours.
I suppose I'm not telling you how to get better results with dry media, but I doubt you ever will.
The logic behind cases shedding weight as a result of steel pin cleaning is ridiculous. You would have to have them tumbling for a day before you would see even a few grains lost. The cases in this photo have been tumbled at least 8 times, the number of reloads they've had.

Sam

20170501_211621.jpg (512.82 KiB) Viewed 3032 times

[juststarting]

vmaxaus, we moved on mate, I have a wet tumbler now...

[Cryptic]

I know this is a old thread but didn't want to start a new one for the same topic.

Whilst watching Youtube video's I noticed people putting some liquid cleaner (like polisher) in with the media on the tumbler. Non of them are a brand I am familiar with being on the Australia shelf. Does anyone add a form of polisher to there tumbler to bring the shine up??

I tried out a cap of nufinish in vibration tumbler I borrowed the other day came up good. Was mentioned on a few yank forums so tried it out.
Need to run it for half hour with the Polish and media before adding brass though or it clumps in cases I found on 1st try.

[Oldbloke]

500 grams hot or warm water
125 grams vinegar
1tea spoon dish washing liquid
1 heaped tea spoon salt.

Soak for about 1 or 2 hours giving a good shake in a plastic container occasionally.

Come out fairly clean, about 90% carbon removed. But no bling.

Rinse well after to remove all acid and soap.

[Mulder030]

I tried out a cap of nufinish in vibration tumbler I borrowed the other day came up good. Was mentioned on a few yank forums so tried it out.
Need to run it for half hour with the Polish and media before adding brass though or it clumps in cases I found on 1st try.

Cheers Mate, The Mrs has already brought be me home the critic acid which i am going to give a whirl. But i will definitely jot down the NuFinish for next time.