Lever Re-loads - To gas check or not to gas check...

[petemacsydney]

Hi all
Planning to do some reloading in 357mag (if and when i finally get a new lever rifle! - there seems to be an international drought on lever farms at the mo!).
I have read a few posts around the interweb that say with solid lead proji's that you don't need a gas check if its for pistol, but you do need a gas check if its for rifle. Also seen quite a few posts around the interweb disagreeing with this statement.

So i thought i'd reach out to you all...

Question is... Do you use gas checks on solid lead proji reloads for your lever rifle's?

thx! p

Gas-checks.jpg (20 KiB) Viewed 9005 times

218433.jpg (122.52 KiB) Viewed 9005 times

[Wm.Traynor]

Have not gotten round to it myself but "Coatings and Alternatives" in

http://castboolits.gunload.comm

was fascinating.

[brett1868]

Pete, I had Andrew check for stock of the Henry's with OSA in Vic and no stock mate. The search continues for the both of us

[petemacsydney]

no worries mate. as much as i'd prefer a side eject i think i may just go down the rossi road. will decide when they come back into stock (next month or so i think).

[bladeracer]

I don't shoot lever rifles but I prefer to gas-check regardless, I just think it keeps the bore cleaner.
I'm casting 7mm, .303 and 8mm currently.
I forgot about the .45 muzzle loader as well.

[Tripod]

Gas check for my levers in 30-30, 307, 357Max, 35-30, 35Rem, 375Win, 375-08, 44Mag, 45-70 and 50Alaskan. Just means I can run them hard and no leading.

[Oldbloke]

It's simple. Up about 1400 fps not required, depending on how hard the cast is. Above and 1400 fps far more likely to lead up the bore so u need a gas check. Also the harder the cast less likely it is to lead up the bore.

Noisy should be a good source of info too. 1500 is just a rule of thumb.
PS. Check out the cast bullets forum.

[Gamerancher]

I load cast bullets in all of my lever-guns. .32-20, .30-30, .35 Win, .38- 55, .44 mag, .45 long colt, and in BPCR rifles in .40-70 Straight Sharps, .45-70 and .45-90.
I run mild loads of smokeless @ black powder velocities in the levers and get excellent accuracy out of them. Remember they were designed originally for black powder.
I use gas checks on anything over 1700 fps and sometimes less if that is the bullet that the rifle shoots best. It can be a "suck it and see" with any load.
Are you going to cast your own or buy commercial?

[WallabyBob]

A quick question to Gamerancher...... I have a Marlin 45/70 and am starting to reload for it. What brand of smokeless black powder do you use and at what loads?
Nothing too hot, safe and mild will be fine. I will be using HRBC Silver Hawks at 350 & 535 grain and also some Black Hawks at 405 and should I gas check the Blacks Hawks?
Any help appreciated. Thanks

[thebear]

I currently load for eight lever guns. Two are for hunting, these being two Marlins in 30-30 and 450 Marlin. The other six are for Western Action. A Marlin and UBERTI 1866 in 38 spl. A UBERTI 1873 and a Henry in 357 cal and a Marlin and a Henry in 44 mag.
The Western Action guns are loaded with Trailboss, while the 30-30 in loaded with Winchester 748 and the 450 Marlin in ADI. The two hunting guns are loaded with normal projectiles, while the Western Action firearms use lead projectiles.

[petemacsydney]

thanks all for your input, much appreciated!!.. and now for my next question... how do you crimp (i'll open another thread for that. cheers pete
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6558

[Gamerancher]

G'day WallabyBob
There ain't no smokeless black-powder. I load down to black-powder velocities in my lever guns. Had a Marlin Cowboy in 45-70, it shot really well with a 360gr plain base cast bullet over 20gr of 2205, mild and accurate out to 200m. I shot lever gun silhouette with it. You can only gas check a bullet if it is designed to wear one. Needs a square rebate at the base of the bullet. Most of the commercial cast bullets are plain base or bevel base. I cast all of my own bullets and have a wide variety of molds. I only use a gas check bullet if velocities are above 1700 fps. Although some of my guns shoot better with them regardless of velocity. My .44 mag and .30-30 prefer them even downloaded.

[Gamerancher]

Cast bullet types, in order; 405gr plain base .40 cal for my .40-70 Sharps, 250gr .38 cal bevel base for .38-55 lever gun, 240gr .44 cal gas check (without gas check) 260 gr .44 hollow point gas check (with gas check) for .44 Rem Mag lever gun, next two are 170gr .30 cal with and without gas check for .30-30 lever gun. Note the step at the base of the bullets designed for gas checks.
So back to answer the original post, you can only gas check bullets designed to wear one. Commercial hard cast lead bullets, non-gas check, especially if coated, will usually work at velocities up to about 1900 f/s without any dramas. Sometimes a bit higher, depends on your barrel and lube used.

[juststarting]

Possibly a retarded question, but...

How come (in my instance .429) some bullet moulds are gas checked and others are not. I can see a bunch without and only one with. I would have educated guessed that gas checked bullets would reduce leading and possibly add a little extra velocity, yet only one mould is checked. Is there a reason for that (e.g. not something needed for a 44 or supply and demand issue or whatever else that I am unaware of)?

[Noisydad]

A quick question to Gamerancher...... I have a Marlin 45/70 and am starting to reload for it. What brand of smokeless black powder do you use and at what loads?
Nothing too hot, safe and mild will be fine. I will be using HRBC Silver Hawks at 350 & 535 grain and also some Black Hawks at 405 and should I gas check the Blacks Hawks?
Any help appreciated. Thanks

If you're using BP or the substitutes the case will be full to the bottom of the bullet. Allow NO air space! Some compression is a usually a good thing too but each rifle is an individual so testing is the only way to know. Use 3F powder in a .45-70 as a starting point then try 2F though in a short little barrel such as on a lever 2F would be unlikely to fully burn in that length. Lady Noisy loads 60grains of 3F for her .45-70 Sharps. My Rolling block .50-70 with a 36 inch (Yes 36 inches!) barrel likes 2F.

[bladeracer]

Possibly a retarded question, but...

How come (in my instance .429) some bullet moulds are gas checked and others are not. I can see a bunch without and only one with. I would have educated guessed that gas checked bullets would reduce leading and possibly add a little extra velocity, yet only one mould is checked. Is there a reason for that (e.g. not something needed for a 44 or supply and demand issue or whatever else that I am unaware of)?

Generally, handgun bullets aren't checked because their velocities are too low to cause leading. Gun barrels vary but if you're using pure lead and keep velocities under about 1400fps you won't need checks. I prefer to run checks regardless as I just think it looks after the bore better. If you're shooting unchecked bullets that are not noticeably leading the bore it's not a bad idea to put some jacketed bullets through every now and then to clear out any residue. If they are leading the bore though it's not recommended to put jacketed bullets down the tube because of the potential for increased pressures due to the bore restriction.

[juststarting]

I just wanted some normal looking gas checked moulds. And the only one I can find for 429 is weird looking :/

[bladeracer]

I just wanted some normal looking gas checked moulds. And the only one I can find for 429 is weird looking :/

You'll probably find that pistol bullets are unchecked and rifle bullets are checked due to the differences in velocity.
Whether velocity affects the performance of the specific bullet, I doubt it.

Lead bullets rely on their softness for performance on the target so they don't need hollow points and such. I doubt what they look like has any effect.
All that matters is they fly straight and hit hard.

[Gamerancher]

Here's a selection of bullets that I've used in the .44 mag lever-gun.

44 bullets.jpg (62.43 KiB) Viewed 8177 times

They are left to right: 220gr Lyman G.C, 240gr HRBC bevel base, 240gr MAG bullet bevel base (coated), 260gr H.P G.C (unknown mold) 240gr plain base N.O.E mold, 260gr Lyman G.C and a mates 265gr "crater" point G.C.
Best results have been with the Lyman molds with 18 grains of 2205 and the N.O.E plain base with 7 grains of trail-boss.
The HRBC and MAG are commercial bullets. I don't think Hawkesbury do that one anymore.
I had a Lee 200gr mold but gave it to a mate as my rifle ( Model '94 with 12 groove rifling) didn't like it. It shot fine out of his 24" barreled Rossi '92 clone.

[juststarting]

Any suggestions where to browse for a broad selection of moulds (to order)?

[Tripod]

Any suggestions where to browse for a broad selection of moulds (to order)?

Cast Bullet Engineering, Aussie made and David is a nice bloke to deal with. Oh and the moulds are excellent.

[Gamerancher]

Depends on how much you want to spend. As a starting point I would recommend a Lee, 2 cavity, .429 , 240gr Semi-wadcutter, gas-check mold. Western Firearms have them for $39. That bullet will work for you and it is a cheap mold to start casting with. Any other brand is going to set you back upwards of $ 100 and then you have to buy handles. The Lee molds come with handles.
There are plenty of good mold makers out there if you want, Lyman, Saeco, C.B.E, Accurate Molds, Night Owl Enterprises, the list goes on. A custom mold can start getting pricey so you need to have a definite idea of what you need in terms of bullet type, weight, size etc. That comes back to what your rifle shoots and what you shoot at.
As a starting point I would suggest the above Lee mold-$39, a .429 Lee lube/sizing kit- $44 and a box of .44 gas checks~$65/1000.
I see in your other post you are talking about using a gas burner to melt your lead. That works, just use a heavy saucepan or cheap cast-iron camp oven. I'd recommend you get a lyman lead ladle and a lead thermometer. The Lee one you had a link to is too small for pouring bullets, it's more for stiring the pot and skimming off the crap that you get on top of your molten lead, especially after fluxing. Also, keeping your lead at an even temperature gives better casting results.

[juststarting]

thanks, guys.

[Oldbloke]

Just found this. How to check lead temperature. Sorry for the pic being sideways. Tilt your head.

IMAG0009_1.jpg (325.41 KiB) Viewed 8142 times

[Gamerancher]

That's one helluva cheap thermometer!!!

[Wm.Traynor]

Oldbloke
Cyril Waterworth?

[Oldbloke]

Oldbloke
Cyril Waterworth?

Yep, reloading simplified bt cyril waterworth. It Was given to me a few years ago.

[bigpete]

Quick question sort of along lines with the thread. I've just bought some ar 2205 and a plan to buy some 300gn projectiles from west casting in the future,but for now I'd like to try my coated 225 lead projectiles. No gas checks for either. Good idea or not ?

[bladeracer]

Quick question sort of along lines with the thread. I've just bought some ar 2205 and a plan to buy some 300gn projectiles from west casting in the future,but for now I'd like to try my coated 225 lead projectiles. No gas checks for either. Good idea or not ?

As long as you keep the velocity below about 1400fps it shouldn't cause any problems.

[bigpete]

That could be a problem with 2205