Hi Tek coated cast bullets VS lubed bullets

[vmaxaust]

Don't know if any are commercially sold but I would like to try some hard cast bullets that have been sized and lubed with a more solid (melted) lube in something like a Star sizing/lube setup.

I don't seem to have success with hard cast bullets that are commercially sold and have the popular Hi Tek coloured coatings on them. I shoot 9mm and 45ACP in semi autos (Colt Gold Cup National Match and STI Rangemaster 9mm) and I have best results with accuracy using the South African copper electroplated bullets, Frontier brand.

I believe I'm reloading cases properly with either the Frontier or the Hi Tek coated lead bullets. I load 4 calibres very successfully, 9mm Luger, 45ACP, 223 Remington and 303 British but would like to try traditional cast and lubed bullets before spending money on my own casting equipment. My lack of success with the Hi Tek coated bullets may still be something I am doing wrong in the reloading process but I really cannot pin it down to anything specific.

With both 9mm and 45ACP I size cases, flare, drop powder, insert bullets and final taper crimp separately. I scrape very, very little of the coating off during the bullet installation and only taper crimp (with separate taper crimp dies) .001" to .0015" maximum consistently. I use the same procedure with the electroplated Frontier bullets. My ammo always loads cleanly in the pistols, never have jams or hangups and both cycle perfectly.

I'm using a Hornady progressive press and dies and the machine works flawlessly.

Would appreciate any help with this.

Sam

[Tripod]

So what problem are you having? You have told us what you are doing but not what the problem is.

[vmaxaust]

So what problem are you having? You have told us what you are doing but not what the problem is.

The problem is a significant difference in accuracy with hard cast Hi Tek coated bullets versus the electroplated projectiles.

I'm not an ace shot but as an example...if I do an ISSF 25 metre competition with the 9mm using 60 rounds I will average anywhere between 390-420 points.
Using the coated lead this will consistently drop by 100 points. I get similar proportional results with the 45ACP in Classic competitions.

Even while practising at a 25 metre distance I get flyers all the time when I know it's not me. I've evaluated this with at least 400-500 rounds of Hi Tek coated lead bullets in both the 45 and 9mm.

I also have a Jericho 941 (IWI Baby Desert Eagle with polygonal rifling) which is supposed to complain when using the lead versus copper coated or jacketed ammo. Believe me, it does complain with coated hard cast lead and becomes hopelessly inaccurate and inconsistent including many tumblers. I can understand this in the Jericho but it seems strange in the others.

My loads are 9mm 147gr round nose electroplated bullet, 2.7-2.8gr AS50 powder, seated around 1.115" plus or minus .005"
The 45ACP 230gr round nose electroplated bullet, 4.0gr AS50 powder, seated around 1.250"

Have fired several thousand of these with very consistent results. I know there may be more accurate options but I'm happy with these because it suits my badly damaged right hand (I shoot left handed) which cannot provide very strong support hand strength. I shoot 2 hands most of the time and these loads are more conservative with recoil as well as providing less load on guns and longer brass case life. I'm only shooting paper.

Other specifics that should be noted...the hard cast 45ACP bullets are .451.5" to .452" and the electroplated versions are consistently .4505" both same weights (230gr) while the 9mm electroplated bullets are consistently .355" diameter and the hard cast coated versions are the same weights (147gr) and are .355-.3555"

Sam

[Tripod]

Well usually I would suggest going up a thou but they are already bigger than what shoots well so I would suggest lubing the coated bullets, Sounds strange but it can make a huge difference.

[vmaxaust]

Well usually I would suggest going up a thou but they are already bigger than what shoots well so I would suggest lubing the coated bullets, Sounds strange but it can make a huge difference.

No it's not strange. That's why I would like to find hard cast lubed bullets to try without coating. Putting lube in coated bullets may do the same thing but that's my point. Why do I need coated bullets if a lubed hard cast bullet solves the problem?

More importantly there are many shooters out there who don't seem to have my issue or at least they don't admit to it or have not really done comparisons the way I have. I do see plenty of very accurate shooters at the 2 ranges I go to and many use coated hard cast bullets very successfully. I know they mostly don't lube their bullets but in reality maybe some do.

Will try to lube the bullets. Do you have recommendations on which lube to use?

Sam

[Tripod]

Just try tumble lubeing them with liquid alox and if that helps improve the accuracy then go from there. Another option is gas checked projectiles or Base guard type projectiles.
How many rounds per month are you using?

[vmaxaust]

Just try tumble lubeing them with liquid alox and if that helps improve the accuracy then go from there. Another option is gas checked projectiles or Base guard type projectiles.
How many rounds per month are you using?

Not going to the gas check or base guard. Will lube a batch and see what happens. If the results are positive I will strongly consider buying a Magma Master Caster...
http://www.magmaengineering.com/master-caster/

and probably their Lube Master (sizing/lubing machine)...
http://www.magmaengineering.com/lube-master/

May also buy their Case Master to mechanise and speed that process...
http://www.magmaengineering.com/case-ma ... ase-sizer/

Initial outlay is high but the eventual volume I believe will justify the spending in productivity, cost per round and time saved. I'm not interested in setting up Hi Tek coating facility if the traditional lubed hard cast bullets produce good results and frankly I cannot see why they won't.

Bottom line I will make my own and have control of sizing, shapes and weights. Do I need another industry? no but my own consumption is at least 300 rounds a week. I shoot with several friends who consume similar quantities as we are all closing in on retirement and shoot much more than we used to.

I shoot rifles less but I can see that growing as well and currently I only use about 200-300 rifle a month, split evenly between 223 and 303.

The purpose of my original questions were really to determine why everyone here seems to avoid lubed bullets and just buy the Hi Tek cast bullets particularly as I have had no luck with the coated variety. I really believe many home hobby casters are still casting and lubing bullets successfully and shooting accurately without excess bore leading. There's no reason I could not do the same after confirming positive results in doing so.

Sam

[Tripod]

I avoid the coated projectiles because I have had zero success with them in my rifles but have fantastic success with my own cast lubed projectiles. I have now got a Corbin Hydra swage press to make my own swaged projectiles. You can also do a dry lube which you just spray on in a container and swirl it round and let dry.

[brett1868]

Might just be a case of doing a little more detailed load development, try some different charges or powder. I load 3.3 of AP50 behind a Top Score 122gr LRN coated projectile and get great results with it in my Walther Q5 Match & WC Beretta but it's rubbish through the Glock. The Glock on the other hand loves 4.4gr of AP70 with the exact same projectile. On the 45ACP I use only Hornady 200gr XTP's with 4.8gr AP50 for very good results through the Colt Gold Cup Trophy and Korth 45's. Haven't been able to locate a good source of 45cal lead projectiles as yet so sticking to JHP's till I do. Pistol wise I have - 22LR, 9mm, 357Sig, 357Mag, 38Super, 10mm, 44Mag, 45ACP and 460XVR with all of them requiring a degree of load development to find the right recipe.
Also you mention hard cast lead, they use the Brinell scale to measure hardness and can vary from 5 through to 22 depending on how they alloy the lead. Unfortunately the tools to measure can cost a few hundred dollars to purchase though if you're going to get into casting then you'll be needing one. Possibly the hardness between the copper plated and coated projectiles varies too much, adding another factor to the mix.

Brinell explained
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brinell_scale

Test tool from my mate Zhen @ Midway Aus.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/321960044043?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I do all the pistol rounds on a Dillon XL650 which has proven itself to be reliable and consistent over many thousands of rounds. The Hornady Ammo Plant looks just as good, I almost purchased the Hornady but due to supply issues went with the Dillon. If you do go down the Master Caster let me know as I'm considering getting one myself.

[vmaxaust]

I avoid the coated projectiles because I have had zero success with them in my rifles but have fantastic success with my own cast lubed projectiles. I have now got a Corbin Hydra swage press to make my own swaged projectiles. You can also do a dry lube which you just spray on in a container and swirl it round and let dry.

That's the input I need. I looked long and hard at swaging versus the casting. Unfortunately it seems one may need both. Do you have the Corbin Hydra Swage? that's the production style machine. Do you make swaged handgun bullets or solely for rifle? I thought the swaging process uses softer lead for rifle bullets and then you need to jacket them?

You also mention you are casting and lubing bullets for rifles. Handguns also?

Just trying to work out my best direction when going down the bullet making path.

Sam

[vmaxaust]

[quote="brett1868"]Might just be a case of doing a little more detailed load development, try some different charges or powder. I load 3.3 of AP50 behind a Top Score 122gr LRN coated projectile and get great results with it in my Walther Q5 Match & WC Beretta but it's rubbish through the Glock. The Glock on the other hand loves 4.4gr of AP70 with the exact same projectile. On the 45ACP I use only Hornady 200gr XTP's with 4.8gr AP50 for very good results through the Colt Gold Cup Trophy and Korth 45's. Haven't been able to locate a good source of 45cal lead projectiles as yet so sticking to JHP's till I do. Pistol wise I have - 22LR, 9mm, 357Sig, 357Mag, 38Super, 10mm, 44Mag, 45ACP and 460XVR with all of them requiring a degree of load development to find the right recipe.

Reply is appreciated. My dilemma is I'm allowed almost any projectiles at the Springvale range here in Melbourne but at my other club Oakleigh only allowed lead. Unfortunately they consider even the electroplated bullets jacketed. A case of some bullets ending up in their neighbours fields and they are more likely to be recognised by the copper colour of plating or jackets.

Regardless, the bullet making for me will also be to give me flexibility in choices as well as possibly cost savings. Interesting to hear you have not been able to locate a good source of 45 lead projectiles. You can buy coated ones from several sources in various weights but as I said I have not been successful with them as regards accuracy and I suppose I'm too lazy to start experimenting with a variety of different loads. I shouldn't really need to but it appears by your descriptions I have no choice.

Here in Melbourne I buy most of my reloading supplies from Mario Mori (Saffire Trading) 0408327461. He's a great guy, a wealth of knowledge and a professional reloader supplying many shooters locally with suitable loads for their applications. I will talk to him first about my situation but I will still be setting up my own bullet making ability. After being in the automotive high performance engine building business for the last 35 years and used to tenths of a though tolerances, the ammo deal presents a new challenge which I enjoy and will learn over some more time.

I believe the Master Caster and sizer/lube machine are inevitable. Swaging is still a possibility with the Corbin machine but I think casting would be a first step. Will let you know if and when I go this way. I spoke to the people at Magma last week just to ask if they could make a Master Caster with left hand lever and they said no problem. They also mentioned that traditional lubed bullets in their opinion are still highly successful versus the coated if the correct lead material is used.

I can find only one source of virgin lead ingots for bullet making here in Australia...
http://www.northernsmelters.com.au/prod ... lletalloys
Are there others? I suppose bullet making without the source of raw materials consistently is not going to be a success. Considering that batch to batch variations are possible, the hardness testers are vital.

Sam

[bladeracer]

I can find only one source of virgin lead ingots for bullet making here in Australia...
http://www.northernsmelters.com.au/prod ... lletalloys
Are there others? I suppose bullet making without the source of raw materials consistently is not going to be a success. Considering that batch to batch variations are possible, the hardness testers are vital.

Sam

I've bought three times from Northern Smelters, good people.
I've also used Bunnings sheet lead.
But generally I prefer to use lead shot for melting.
Search Google for for "lead alloy calculator" - it'll tell you your BH from whatever materials you are alloying.
I keep looking at harness testers but haven't put down the money - I consider them to be more useful than vital.

[Tripod]

I avoid the coated projectiles because I have had zero success with them in my rifles but have fantastic success with my own cast lubed projectiles. I have now got a Corbin Hydra swage press to make my own swaged projectiles. You can also do a dry lube which you just spray on in a container and swirl it round and let dry.

That's the input I need. I looked long and hard at swaging versus the casting. Unfortunately it seems one may need both. Do you have the Corbin Hydra Swage? that's the production style machine. Do you make swaged handgun bullets or solely for rifle? I thought the swaging process uses softer lead for rifle bullets and then you need to jacket them?

You also mention you are casting and lubing bullets for rifles. Handguns also?

Just trying to work out my best direction when going down the bullet making path.

Sam

Getting set up to do Jacketed projectiles, But I do have dies to do most pistol calibers including base guard types.

[bladeracer]

But I do have dies to do most pistol calibers including base guard types.

Base guard?
Do you mean gas checks, or is there something else I've not heard of?

[Tripod]

But I do have dies to do most pistol calibers including base guard types.

Base guard?
Do you mean gas checks, or is there something else I've not heard of?

Different to Gas checks, Basically a copper disc that clips over a nipple on the base of a projectile. I will take some pictures and see if I can post them.

[bladeracer]

But I do have dies to do most pistol calibers including base guard types.

Base guard?
Do you mean gas checks, or is there something else I've not heard of?

Different to Gas checks, Basically a copper disc that clips over a nipple on the base of a projectile. I will take some pictures and see if I can post them.

Cool
Check your PM's

[Tripod]

NFI how to post pics so google it or send me your email address.

[vmaxaust]

But I do have dies to do most pistol calibers including base guard types.

Base guard?
Basically a copper disc that clips over a nipple on the base of a projectile. I will take some pictures and see if I can post them.

Have you used these base guard projectiles in handguns particularly or even rifles? I would go the swaging route if these are viable without leading bores. I've seen arguments for and against base guards. I personally like the idea but once again it would be nice to hear confirmation from someone that's used them here in Australia.

Sam

[vmaxaust]

I've bought three times from Northern Smelters, good people.


Thanks for info.

Sam

[Maxjon]

I avoid the coated projectiles because I have had zero success with them in my rifles but have fantastic success with my own cast lubed projectiles. I have now got a Corbin Hydra swage press to make my own swaged projectiles. You can also do a dry lube which you just spray on in a container and swirl it round and let dry.

What rifle bullets are you producing with the hydraswage??