I need some handloading advice.

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I need some handloading advice.

Post by colinbentley » 05 Nov 2016, 3:12 pm

if I can ever find the powder I need somewhere near Mildura I hope to prepare my first batch of ammo.But that is not why I need advice. I am reloading for 243 Wnchester. All the handloading books and on the net the maximum length for a 243 cartridge is no longer than 2.710 inches. I have made up a dummy round at 2.70 inches. Is that safe or should it be less ? The factory bullets however measure 2.645. which is pretty much midway between the minimum and maximum lengths recommended. I'm a little confused. Also I simply don't understand headspace. What is it and how do I avoid it ?As you can tell reloading at this level is something I haven't been involved in. I understand the dangers of not knowing what the hell your doing.
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by Supaduke » 05 Nov 2016, 3:31 pm

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headspace_(firearms)

Read that first

Basically not enough headspace you start deforming shoulders by crushing them, or case mouths get bent in or forced into the rifling. Too much headspace and the case has too much room to expand and you can get a case rupture.

The reality is modern guns and brass are way over engineeried and can easily deal with fairly sloppy tolerances.

It's why fireformed brass is best. The cartridge is fired and expands to fit the chamber perfectly , then relaxes slightly. Neck sizing only maintains this perfect mould of your chamber. But the ammo is now rifle specific and may struggle to properly chamber in a different rifle. Full length resizing returns the brass to factory spec.
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by bladeracer » 05 Nov 2016, 3:35 pm

colinbentley wrote:if I can ever find the powder I need somewhere near Mildura I hope to prepare my first batch of ammo.But that is not why I need advice. I am reloading for 243 Wnchester. All the handloading books and on the net the maximum length for a 243 cartridge is no longer than 2.710 inches. I have made up a dummy round at 2.70 inches. Is that safe or should it be less ? The factory bullets however measure 2.645. which is pretty much midway between the minimum and maximum lengths recommended. I'm a little confused. Also I simply don't understand headspace. What is it and how do I avoid it ?As you can tell reloading at this level is something I haven't been involved in. I understand the dangers of not knowing what the hell your doing.



The overall cartridge length is primarily based on the length of your magazine. If you don't mind feeding rounds one at a time into the chamber then you can seat the bullets closer to the lands of the rifling.
Because every bullet design is a different shape and length, the COAL will change either because a long blunt bullet is too close to the rifling or because a short bullet needs more depth to maintain grip in the case neck.
Headspace is essentially the maximum the case is allowed to stretch under firing without rupturing.
It is rarely a problem in a new or factory-original firearm because it was set during manufacture and then test fired.
If you replace the barrel or bolt then you have to check and adjust the headspace.
If you handload then headspace usually doesn't matter, unless you full length size - in which case you would want to set up your die so as not to bump the shoulder back excessively in a chamber with over spec headspace. If headspace of the chamber is fine but the die is too short allowing you bump the shoulder back further than it should then you will have a similar problem, but this is highly unlikely.
If you neck-size only then headspace should have no effect after the brass is fireformed to the chamber.
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by bladeracer » 05 Nov 2016, 3:38 pm

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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by colinbentley » 05 Nov 2016, 3:56 pm

Thanks guys I think I understand headspace. As I'm only necksizing it appears it shouldn't be a problem But is my dummy (no not me) cartridge OK at 2.70 inches. ?
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by bladeracer » 05 Nov 2016, 4:00 pm

colinbentley wrote:Thanks guys I think I understand headspace. As I'm only necksizing it appears it shouldn't be a problem But is my dummy (no not me) cartridge OK at 2.70 inches. ?



As long as it's not too long for your magazine it'll be fine.
Does it feed and chamber okay?

When you develop an accurate load you might want to try seating the bullets closer to the lands to see if you can improve accuracy, but you might find them too long to fit your magazine.
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by tom604 » 05 Nov 2016, 4:15 pm

243 max case length = 2.045 case trim length = 2.035 max col =2.650

the complete reloading manual for the .243 winchester

hope this helps :thumbsup:
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by Wm.Traynor » 05 Nov 2016, 5:06 pm

colinbentley,
Do you need to know the maximum overall cartridge length? Find a vid on the tube if you don't understand M O C L. A pictorial explanation is much better than text. With some bullet nose styles OCL can be limited by magazine length but note too, that the rounds need to be a millimetre/0.040" shorter or they will jam in the mag.

Let us know how you are going. OCL is important from a pressure point of view for one thing.
BTW, check the feed from the mag into the chamber after reloading/before going hunting.
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by Chronos » 05 Nov 2016, 5:16 pm

The max cartridge length is a guide but depending what bullets you're loading if you load to max length you may not have enough bullet in the case neck to hold it securely. a good guide is 1 caliber of bullet in the neck but in reality about 3/4 caliber is usually enough

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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by colinbentley » 05 Nov 2016, 6:49 pm

I actually used the rifle itself as the bullet seating press......an idea I got from a website video. So I know it will chamber OK .My brass if anything is short as it's the first time it has been reused after being fired in my rifle. It will be a while before I have to consider case trimming.The more I learn the more I realize what I don't know.I don't wonder many people just fire factory ammo. But where is the fun in that ?
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by Wm.Traynor » 05 Nov 2016, 7:24 pm

colinbentley wrote:I actually used the rifle itself as the bullet seating press......an idea I got from a website video.


Not to labour the point but as long as you do that for each bullet shape, you will be OK, pressurewise. That is, they won't jam in the rifling.
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by Apollo » 05 Nov 2016, 7:29 pm

colinbentley wrote:I actually used the rifle itself as the bullet seating press......an idea I got from a website video. So I know it will chamber OK .My brass if anything is short as it's the first time it has been reused after being fired in my rifle. It will be a while before I have to consider case trimming.The more I learn the more I realize what I don't know.I don't wonder many people just fire factory ammo. But where is the fun in that ?


I hope I am reading this incorrectly.... :?:

You are using the rifle to seat bullets in a cartridge case with a live primer and a powder load... I would imagine by using the Bolt (with Firing Pin) to achieve this. Is this happening inside... :?:

If this is correct then I would advise you to stop immediately before someone gets injured. Website video's are full of fools with nothing better to do.

One of the ways to see and read the results of different seating depths and reloading in general is in the Hornady Reloading Manual, that part maybe even on their website. I'm not even thinking what might happen if you have bullets jammed into the bore and happen to use a powder load that is too much. I can see danger and injury happening.

I think you need some basic reloading advice, especially safety.
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by Apollo » 05 Nov 2016, 7:37 pm

Wm.Traynor wrote:
colinbentley wrote:I actually used the rifle itself as the bullet seating press......an idea I got from a website video./quote]

Not to labour the point but as long as you do that for each bullet shape, you will be OK, pressurewise. That is, they won't jam in the rifling.


Pressure wise he is pushing the point if the powder loads are at the maximum end of the scale. There is no bullet jump to relieve a pressure spike.

If the neck tension is tight he has every chance of jamming a bullet in the bore as it will require quite some pressure to seat the bullet which, depending on ogive shape may not be easy to extract. I think we are talking about live rounds here... Really. I cringe thinking of how easy it would be for something to go very wrong.
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by juststarting » 05 Nov 2016, 8:30 pm

Supaduke wrote:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headspace_(firearms)

Read that first

Basically not enough headspace you start deforming shoulders by crushing them, or case mouths get bent in or forced into the rifling. Too much headspace and the case has too much room to expand and you can get a case rupture.

The reality is modern guns and brass are way over engineeried and can easily deal with fairly sloppy tolerances.

It's why fireformed brass is best. The cartridge is fired and expands to fit the chamber perfectly , then relaxes slightly. Neck sizing only maintains this perfect mould of your chamber. But the ammo is now rifle specific and may struggle to properly chamber in a different rifle. Full length resizing returns the brass to factory spec.



Being somewhat kind of new to this myself, I am going to try to add to this and someone can call me out if my understanding is incorrect, helps everyone learn. Also, Supaduke, best freaking summary I've read!

Headspace, the amount of space between the bolt face and the case (primer end). We are talking tiny here, under 1mm here... Depends on how far the shoulder on the case shifted.

Too much space between the bolt face and the case, the force will blast the case back into the bolt face and you may get the bottom of the case separated from the rest of the case. Too little and you will have issues closing the bolt - it will feel tight when dropping the handle if it closes at all, also messes up your brass.

Best way to test it, is prep your brass and try to cycle it through the rifle (NOT LOADED). Or buy a headspace gauge, well worth it (especially if you going hunt with ammo that was fire formed, rather than full length resized, last thing you want is for fail-to-chamber when hunting).
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by on_one_wheel » 05 Nov 2016, 8:45 pm

Don't do any more reloading until you have bought and thoroughly read a decent reloading book. Poor reloading practices can result in catastrophic failure of your firearm leading to severe injuries

I started out with a copy of Nick Harvey's reloading manual. I highly recommend it.
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by bladeracer » 05 Nov 2016, 8:46 pm

juststarting wrote:Headspace, the amount of space between the bolt face and the case (primer end). We are talking tiny here, under 1mm here... Depends on how far the shoulder on the case shifted.



Probably talking under 0.25mm, if your brass is stretching more than ten-thou (a quarter of a millimeter) you will have poor case life if you full-length size them - neck size only in such a case.
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by juststarting » 05 Nov 2016, 8:53 pm

I am giving a round example of 1mm. I was more interested in broader theory, i.e. explanation I provided.
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by Apollo » 05 Nov 2016, 9:19 pm

Ideal Headspace should be around 0.002 - 0.003" or in the case of precision chambers half that dimension.

When I bump the shoulders on my cases if needed I try for less than 0.0015" but it's hard even using expensive precision measuring equipment. Going too much (cases too long) to what is called "Crush Fit" is just putting pressure on your Bolt Handle but more so Locking Lugs.
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by colinbentley » 05 Nov 2016, 9:19 pm

I may be new to reloading but I'm not silly enough to use the rifle to seat a live cartridge. No I used a dummy, that is no powder or primer.
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by Oldbloke » 05 Nov 2016, 9:29 pm

"One of the ways to see and read the results of different seating depths and reloading in general is in the Hornady Reloading Manual, that part maybe even on their website. I'm not even thinking what might happen if you have bullets jammed into the bore and happen to use a powder load that is too much. I can see danger and injury happening.

I think you need some basic reloading advice, especially safety."

Sounds like good advice to me. PS. Youtube is our friend BUT at times 100% bull s**t.

A trip to the library might be in order ther are plenty of good reloading books there. or Try googling Getting started in reloading lyman pdf
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by Apollo » 05 Nov 2016, 9:40 pm

colinbentley wrote:I may be new to reloading but I'm not silly enough to use the rifle to seat a live cartridge. No I used a dummy, that is no powder or primer.


Sorry, but that's the way it read in your post.
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by bladeracer » 05 Nov 2016, 9:49 pm

colinbentley wrote:I may be new to reloading but I'm not silly enough to use the rifle to seat a live cartridge. No I used a dummy, that is no powder or primer.



I'm not understanding your reason for doing this.
Do you mean that you were measuring the lands by using the chamber to seat a bullet against them, or did you plug the barrel in some way to be able to seat the bullet away from the lands?

I would expect the COAL to the lands to be longer than the 2.70" you measured though.
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by colinbentley » 05 Nov 2016, 9:53 pm

I have spent in excess of 20 hours on the web viewing handloading videos, have read from cover to cover "The ABCs of Reloading" by C. Rodney James and am in the process of reading Reloading Manual 14 put out by Speer Bullets. I am a very pedantic person. I don't think I'm stupid but I am careful hence my questions. A pont that has to be answered is why do the length of factory rounds sit between the minimum and maximum, lengths.? Are they simply playing it safe ?
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by Oldbloke » 05 Nov 2016, 10:00 pm

I think he is doing this to determin coal.

Size a fired case so that only 1mm of the lip of the case neck is sized, or use pliers to tighten the neck a touch
Insert a projectile so that it is just started into the case neck
Liberally coat the the ogive and bullet body with lee lube to prevent the bullet jaming into the lands and pulling back out again giving a false reading
Chamber the cartridge, then extract it. This is your Max COAL into the lands.
Repeat this three or four times to be sure.


I do it this way.
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by bladeracer » 05 Nov 2016, 10:00 pm

colinbentley wrote:I have spent in excess of 20 hours on the web viewing handloading videos, have read from cover to cover "The ABCs of Reloading" by C. Rodney James and am in the process of reading Reloading Manual 14 put out by Speer Bullets. I am a very pedantic person. I don't think I'm stupid but I am careful hence my questions. A pont that has to be answered is why do the length of factory rounds sit between the minimum and maximum, lengths.? Are they simply playing it safe ?



Because of different bullet designs as already explained.
Factory rounds using the same bullet are likely to be the same length even from different manufacturers.
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by bladeracer » 05 Nov 2016, 10:02 pm

Oldbloke wrote:I think he is doing this to determin coal.

Size a fired case so that only 1mm of the lip of the case neck is sized, or use pliers to tighten the neck a touch
Insert a projectile so that it is just started into the case neck
Liberally coat the the ogive and bullet body with lee lube to prevent the bullet jaming into the lands and pulling back out again giving a false reading
Chamber the cartridge, then extract it. This is your Max COAL into the lands.
Repeat this three or four times to be sure.


I do it this way.



That's what I was thinking, but it must be a very short chamber to result in a COAL of 2.700" in a .243?
Unless it's a blunt heavy bullet perhaps.
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by colinbentley » 05 Nov 2016, 10:14 pm

The bullet was a Sierra Gameking Spitzer Boat tail. It was loose in the brass case and I closed the bolt very slowly.
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by bladeracer » 05 Nov 2016, 10:17 pm

colinbentley wrote:The bullet was a Sierra Gameking Spitzer Boat tail. It was loose in the brass case and I closed the bolt very slowly.



And COAL measures 2.700" to the lands of the rifling?
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by colinbentley » 05 Nov 2016, 10:21 pm

I removed it and that's what it measured. The rifle is a Ruger M77 mark2, if that has any bearing on it, which I doubt.
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Re: I need some handloading advice.

Post by bladeracer » 05 Nov 2016, 10:25 pm

colinbentley wrote:I removed it and that's what it measured. The rifle is a Ruger M77 mark2, if that has any bearing on it, which I doubt.



It doesn't sound right to me.
Have you tried measuring the lands by dropping a cleaning rod down the bore against the closed bolt, mark it with tape at the muzzle, then hold a bullet in the throat by hand and mark the rod again and measure the gap?

Don't use a rod with an open end ;-)
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