I need some handloading advice.

[colinbentley]

I may be new to reloading but I'm not silly enough to use the rifle to seat a live cartridge. No I used a dummy, that is no powder or primer.

[Oldbloke]

"One of the ways to see and read the results of different seating depths and reloading in general is in the Hornady Reloading Manual, that part maybe even on their website. I'm not even thinking what might happen if you have bullets jammed into the bore and happen to use a powder load that is too much. I can see danger and injury happening.

I think you need some basic reloading advice, especially safety."

Sounds like good advice to me. PS. Youtube is our friend BUT at times 100% bull s**t.

A trip to the library might be in order ther are plenty of good reloading books there. or Try googling Getting started in reloading lyman pdf

[Apollo]

I may be new to reloading but I'm not silly enough to use the rifle to seat a live cartridge. No I used a dummy, that is no powder or primer.

Sorry, but that's the way it read in your post.

[bladeracer]

I may be new to reloading but I'm not silly enough to use the rifle to seat a live cartridge. No I used a dummy, that is no powder or primer.

I'm not understanding your reason for doing this.
Do you mean that you were measuring the lands by using the chamber to seat a bullet against them, or did you plug the barrel in some way to be able to seat the bullet away from the lands?

I would expect the COAL to the lands to be longer than the 2.70" you measured though.

[colinbentley]

I have spent in excess of 20 hours on the web viewing handloading videos, have read from cover to cover "The ABCs of Reloading" by C. Rodney James and am in the process of reading Reloading Manual 14 put out by Speer Bullets. I am a very pedantic person. I don't think I'm stupid but I am careful hence my questions. A pont that has to be answered is why do the length of factory rounds sit between the minimum and maximum, lengths.? Are they simply playing it safe ?

[Oldbloke]

I think he is doing this to determin coal.

Size a fired case so that only 1mm of the lip of the case neck is sized, or use pliers to tighten the neck a touch
Insert a projectile so that it is just started into the case neck
Liberally coat the the ogive and bullet body with lee lube to prevent the bullet jaming into the lands and pulling back out again giving a false reading
Chamber the cartridge, then extract it. This is your Max COAL into the lands.
Repeat this three or four times to be sure.


I do it this way.

[bladeracer]

I have spent in excess of 20 hours on the web viewing handloading videos, have read from cover to cover "The ABCs of Reloading" by C. Rodney James and am in the process of reading Reloading Manual 14 put out by Speer Bullets. I am a very pedantic person. I don't think I'm stupid but I am careful hence my questions. A pont that has to be answered is why do the length of factory rounds sit between the minimum and maximum, lengths.? Are they simply playing it safe ?

Because of different bullet designs as already explained.
Factory rounds using the same bullet are likely to be the same length even from different manufacturers.

[bladeracer]

I think he is doing this to determin coal.

Size a fired case so that only 1mm of the lip of the case neck is sized, or use pliers to tighten the neck a touch
Insert a projectile so that it is just started into the case neck
Liberally coat the the ogive and bullet body with lee lube to prevent the bullet jaming into the lands and pulling back out again giving a false reading
Chamber the cartridge, then extract it. This is your Max COAL into the lands.
Repeat this three or four times to be sure.


I do it this way.

That's what I was thinking, but it must be a very short chamber to result in a COAL of 2.700" in a .243?
Unless it's a blunt heavy bullet perhaps.

[colinbentley]

The bullet was a Sierra Gameking Spitzer Boat tail. It was loose in the brass case and I closed the bolt very slowly.

[bladeracer]

The bullet was a Sierra Gameking Spitzer Boat tail. It was loose in the brass case and I closed the bolt very slowly.

And COAL measures 2.700" to the lands of the rifling?

[colinbentley]

I removed it and that's what it measured. The rifle is a Ruger M77 mark2, if that has any bearing on it, which I doubt.

[bladeracer]

I removed it and that's what it measured. The rifle is a Ruger M77 mark2, if that has any bearing on it, which I doubt.

It doesn't sound right to me.
Have you tried measuring the lands by dropping a cleaning rod down the bore against the closed bolt, mark it with tape at the muzzle, then hold a bullet in the throat by hand and mark the rod again and measure the gap?

Don't use a rod with an open end

[colinbentley]

Don't forget I am a beginner. Have a look at where I got this idea. On the internet A Beginners Guide to Reloading Pt 1...Equipment.. Youtube. The episode you need is episode 23 dealing with just necksizing 308 ammo .More and more I am finding that every time I ask someone a question about reloading no one seems to be able to give a definitive answer.

[bladeracer]

Don't forget I am a beginner. Have a look at where I got this idea. On the internet A Beginners Guide to Reloading Pt 1...Equipment.. Youtube. The episode you need is episode 23 dealing with just necksizing 308 ammo .More and more I am finding that every time I ask someone a question about reloading no one seems to be able to give a definitive answer.

The method is fine.
The measurement you got is what concerns me
ADI lists COAL of 2.850" for the 107gn bullet for example.

[Apollo]

Okay CB, you are taking me back over 40 years of reloading to the beginning where I started with no fancy measuring equipment like I use now.

See how this goes against you current measurements.

Insert the cleaning rod into the barrel from the muzzle, carefully so as to not mark or damage the crown.

Grab a bullet and a cleaning rod (open ended). Drop the bullet into the bore through the chamber and hold it there with something like a pencil.

Push the bullet back a touch a few times with the cleaning rod with just light pressure then make a mark on the cleaning rod with a very fine tipped pencil or whatever exactly level with the crown / bore. Compare that measurement with your dummy round.

If you are using anything where you push a bullet into a case and remove it with the bolt you have the chance that the bullet has gone too far into the lands or it may even have just grabbed on the way back out and your measurement is false.

You need then to back off that maximum measurement before you start testing powder loads... Unless you are a target shooter and fully aware of the dangers.

Other ways of achieving this are to split a case neck with a dremel saw just enough that you can push a bullet into the neck with light pressure. Either soot the bullet or coat it with a texta so you can see any markings on the bullet, like the slight touch from the lands in the barrel bore.

There are other ways.

I use a special tool with a modified cartridge case mounted on it with a plunger inside to lightly seat a bullet then withdraw it all and measure the length. In my case I only work off measurements from the cartridge base to the bullet ogive. Any measurement to the bullet tip (meplat) in my view is false as every bullet has a slight difference in length unless they have been trimmed to length which is another topic relating to precision long range shooting, meplat trimming and pointing.

[Apollo]

BTW....

If you have a rifle with a magazine it is highly unlikely that you can load a round that is as long as one that the bullet is touching the lands in a bore.

If you have a restricted overall length governed by your magazine length then when developing loads and bullet seating then that is where you start and work backwards once you have the most accurate powder load..ie the bullet is seated even further back into the case neck.

Not many people have what I use even for varminting / hunting being a Single Shot Rifle that has a Bolt.

My target rifles have bullets seated so they are "jammed" into the bore by up to 0.030" BUT they are meant to be fired once the chamber is locked, No opening the bolt and removing the round as the likely result is the bullet is stuck in the bore and the powder spills all through the action. That's target shooting only. Long story and not applicable here.

[bladeracer]

If you have a rifle with a magazine it is highly unlikely that you can load a round that is as long as one that the bullet is touching the lands in a bore.

This is why I can't believe 2.700" could possibly be correct. Even factory ammo would be jammed into the lands if the throat is really this short.

[Apollo]

Yep...something is a little strange.

Anyway, I'll change my statement and say "most magazines" as I just did a few measurements other than my steel magazines like CZ rifles.

My .243W I'm using 90gr Berger Boat Tail Bullets and they are set as being jammed 0.010" into the lands. Not far enough to have a stuck bullet if I extracted a loaded round but these are "target rounds" so not intended to be extracted.

My Berger reloading manual says a COAL of 2.710"....

My "Loaded Round" COAL to bullet tip is 2.790" and these are not long secant ogive VLD type bullets. My Tikka T3 magazine has a max length of 2.836" approx and my Sako 85 a max length of 2.960" so it's only rough figures and it all depends on the bullet shape really and hence why we are measuring the actual bullet to be used not some figure in some book which could be anything.

Got to be confusing for someone starting off.

[happyhunter]

I have spent in excess of 20 hours on the web viewing handloading videos, have read from cover to cover "The ABCs of Reloading" by C. Rodney James and am in the process of reading Reloading Manual 14 put out by Speer Bullets. I am a very pedantic person. I don't think I'm stupid but I am careful hence my questions. A pont that has to be answered is why do the length of factory rounds sit between the minimum and maximum, lengths.? Are they simply playing it safe ?

Factory rounds have to fit in a variety of magazines and chambers for different make rifles. Unless you are happy to single feed ammo the MAX length is determined by what fits in the magazine.

[Gwion]

I actually used the rifle itself as the bullet seating press......an idea I got from a website video. So I know it will chamber OK .My brass if anything is short as it's the first time it has been reused after being fired in my rifle. It will be a while before I have to consider case trimming.The more I learn the more I realize what I don't know.I don't wonder many people just fire factory ammo. But where is the fun in that ?

Sorry mate but that is the craziest, laziest, shoetcuttiest, most dangerousest excuse for a reloading technique I have ever heard of.

You're just asking for trouble in a MULTITUDE of ways.

Find out where your lands are I relation to your cart length to the bullet ogive. Make up a dummie round to set your bullet touching the lands and crimp it in place. Use that to set you SEATING DIE. Use the SEATIND DIE to seat your bullet!!!

[Supaduke]

I think he already stated that's what he is doing G. Just a misuse of terminology.

Personally Colin, if you are having trouble with your measurements just use the ADI recommended length to start. The ADI length is always conservative and designed to chamber in any rifle.

The method of loading a long seated dummy round to work out COAL is a much used and accepted practice. Just make sure chambers and cycles smoothly.

I have watched enough people trying to blow rifles up on purpose to know it's much harder than you would think. The most important thing is you are using the correct powder. Start with a mild load and work from there.

[Gwion]

Superduke, this is the bit that got me going:

"I am actually using the rifle itself as the bullet seating PRESS".......

[colinbentley]

Thanks Supaduke. The recommended maximumlength is 2.7098. .My dummy bullet measures 2.704. So I don't appear to have a problem.Please no more advice as I am getting more confused by the minute.

[Gwion]

Sorry Colin. That was more a dig at the person who made the video you watched than a dig at you. Just take your time and follow best practice rather than, "hey you can do it like this" tips.

[bladeracer]

Thanks Supaduke. The recommended maximumlength is 2.7098. .My dummy bullet measures 2.704. So I don't appear to have a problem.Please no more advice as I am getting more confused by the minute.

I think everybody agrees that your COAL is fine.
The concern, for me at least, is that if your chamber measurement is correct then there is a problem somewhere.
If the round chambers fine without the bullet jamming into the rifling then there's no problem - it just means your chamber measurement wasn't correct.

[<<Genesis93>>]

The using the rifle as a press bit reminds me somewhat of the little Afghani kids sitting on the side of the road, in the Khyber Pass region 'installing' the projectiles with a mallet....was it a BBC doco??

Anyways, the COAL is not as sensitive as the Case length, from a 'fit' rather than performance perspective (consistency is always important with loads and length) which would cause the neck brass to contact the chamber if too long, if too short not as critical...

The COAL though too long may.. may contact the rifling, if too short will have a smidge more gap..contact or pushed into the rifling translates to different pressure characteristics, more initial pressure, perceivable? probably not so much...unless loaded at the extreme...

Freebores might be proj diameter, larger(airspace) or smaller (swage down before the rifling leade)...

Some rounds have a miiiile of a gap (freebore) like the webberies, while others have no freebore so the leade of the rifling starts at the end of the neck or thereabouts...(actually the end of the chamfer refer diagrams).

The 243win has zero freebore*, so depending on the shape/mass of the bullet, at max COAL it might or might not 'touch' or push into the rifling...;

The 243Win has a max CASE length of 51.94 and a minimum Chamber length of 52.2, so as Max case and Min chamber, there is at least (!) 0.26mm of leeway...;

*Freebore is specified as zero / blank (lower case 's' in the chamber spec column), however the leade starts at greater than the projectile AND groove diameter (a plain cone)so there is air space within the 'leade' around the projectile...similar to the 308win, as opposed to the 223Rem where the leade commences at groove diameter both less than proj size.... The rifling commences at about the one-third distance along the 'leade'... so you could say the leade actually commences at that point...

Weatherbys have up to 19mm of freebore, while some chambering have loooong / shallow angle leades like Mauser rounds with over 40mm of leade and gentle shallow leade angles of 14minutes... as opposed to the common 1 to 3 degrees... more or less...

243win. CIP spec;


243Win. chamber;


223Rem chamber;

[Norton]

I actually used the rifle itself as the bullet seating press......an idea I got from a website video.

Mate, whichever website you got that from... Never visit or take advice from it again.

Terrible practice from a reloading point alone, more importantly a disaster just waiting to happen.

[Flyer]

Interesting thread and perhaps I'm also in need of advice.

I've got a .243 Sako 85 and plan to load Sierra 95gr Tipped Match Kings and 100gr SPBT Game Kings. COAL with the Game Kings is 2.725" and so I plan to load to 2.710", or .015" off the lands. So far so good.

The SMKs are a different story. Due to the long ogive, COAL is 2.925" and there is no way I can load anywhere near that with the bullet seated properly. The TMK has a very short bearing surface due to the long boat tail and ogive. If I seat 6mm of the bearing surface into the neck, the OAL is about 2.750". If I seat 4mm, it is 2.830".

From what I've read, Match Kings don't mind a jump, but what would be better: to seat the bullet properly with a .175" jump, or seat it out a bit with a .095" jump? I read the article below and this bloke was seating his TMKs to 2.860" - which leaves just over 3mm of bearing surface in contact with the neck.

http://rifleshooter.com/2016/07/243-win ... rettyPhoto

So what would be best? I have plenty of magazine length, so that's not a consideration.

[brett1868]

"I am actually using the rifle itself as the bullet seating PRESS".......

Gwion / Norton, This is not as stupid as it sounds providing it's done correctly. Some of the BR guys are neck sizing their brass so it has minimal neck tension, they seat a fraction long so that when they close the bolt the ogive contacts the rifling and the projectile seats further into the case. The logic behind this is that neck tension is extremely consistent and they are always seating to the lands reducing 2 variables of consistency. It's an advanced technique and not for beginners as you have rightly identified there can be issues with pressure so you need to know what you're doing. I think the OP may possibly have too much neck tension which is potentially dangerous when approaching maximum loads he'd also be all over the shop with OAL due to large variations in neck tension so not a practise I'd recommend in his situation.

@ColinBentley
Get yourself the Hornady LNL OAL Straight gauge
http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-Load-OAL-Gauge-Straight-1Each/

And to complete the set the Hornady LNL Bullet Comparator
http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-Load-Comparator-Set-Body-and-14-Bullet-Inserts-1-Each/

Both links have a "Videos" tab that gives a good explanation on how to use these tools or get in touch and I can walk you through it in a few minutes.

PM me and ill give you my address so you can send me a couple of fired cases to drill and tap to use with the gauge. Once you have a starting point for max OAL you can tune and adjust from there.

[bladeracer]

Interesting thread and perhaps I'm also in need of advice.

I've got a .243 Sako 85 and plan to load Sierra 95gr Tipped Match Kings and 100gr SPBT Game Kings. COAL with the Game Kings is 2.725" and so I plan to load to 2.710", or .015" off the lands. So far so good.

The SMKs are a different story. Due to the long ogive, COAL is 2.925" and there is no way I can load anywhere near that with the bullet seated properly. The TMK has a very short bearing surface due to the long boat tail and ogive. If I seat 6mm of the bearing surface into the neck, the OAL is about 2.750". If I seat 4mm, it is 2.830".

From what I've read, Match Kings don't mind a jump, but what would be better: to seat the bullet properly with a .175" jump, or seat it out a bit with a .095" jump? I read the article below and this bloke was seating his TMKs to 2.860" - which leaves just over 3mm of bearing surface in contact with the neck.

http://rifleshooter.com/2016/07/243-win ... rettyPhoto

So what would be best? I have plenty of magazine length, so that's not a consideration.

As Match Kings are target bullets I'm guessing you're not hunting with them?
In which case I wouldn't be concerned about the magazine length or the neck depth.
As long as the bullet is secure enough to tolerate feeding without moving I would just seat them to the depth that gives best accuracy. I would think 3mm would be secure enough for that, although as the throat erodes that may become more tenuous.
But with the long-ogive bullets I think it's pretty much a requirement that you measure COAL along the ogive rather than to the tip if you want consistent jump.