I need some handloading advice.

[happyhunter]

I have spent in excess of 20 hours on the web viewing handloading videos, have read from cover to cover "The ABCs of Reloading" by C. Rodney James and am in the process of reading Reloading Manual 14 put out by Speer Bullets. I am a very pedantic person. I don't think I'm stupid but I am careful hence my questions. A pont that has to be answered is why do the length of factory rounds sit between the minimum and maximum, lengths.? Are they simply playing it safe ?

Factory rounds have to fit in a variety of magazines and chambers for different make rifles. Unless you are happy to single feed ammo the MAX length is determined by what fits in the magazine.

[Gwion]

I actually used the rifle itself as the bullet seating press......an idea I got from a website video. So I know it will chamber OK .My brass if anything is short as it's the first time it has been reused after being fired in my rifle. It will be a while before I have to consider case trimming.The more I learn the more I realize what I don't know.I don't wonder many people just fire factory ammo. But where is the fun in that ?

Sorry mate but that is the craziest, laziest, shoetcuttiest, most dangerousest excuse for a reloading technique I have ever heard of.

You're just asking for trouble in a MULTITUDE of ways.

Find out where your lands are I relation to your cart length to the bullet ogive. Make up a dummie round to set your bullet touching the lands and crimp it in place. Use that to set you SEATING DIE. Use the SEATIND DIE to seat your bullet!!!

[Supaduke]

I think he already stated that's what he is doing G. Just a misuse of terminology.

Personally Colin, if you are having trouble with your measurements just use the ADI recommended length to start. The ADI length is always conservative and designed to chamber in any rifle.

The method of loading a long seated dummy round to work out COAL is a much used and accepted practice. Just make sure chambers and cycles smoothly.

I have watched enough people trying to blow rifles up on purpose to know it's much harder than you would think. The most important thing is you are using the correct powder. Start with a mild load and work from there.

[Gwion]

Superduke, this is the bit that got me going:

"I am actually using the rifle itself as the bullet seating PRESS".......

[colinbentley]

Thanks Supaduke. The recommended maximumlength is 2.7098. .My dummy bullet measures 2.704. So I don't appear to have a problem.Please no more advice as I am getting more confused by the minute.

[Gwion]

Sorry Colin. That was more a dig at the person who made the video you watched than a dig at you. Just take your time and follow best practice rather than, "hey you can do it like this" tips.

[bladeracer]

Thanks Supaduke. The recommended maximumlength is 2.7098. .My dummy bullet measures 2.704. So I don't appear to have a problem.Please no more advice as I am getting more confused by the minute.

I think everybody agrees that your COAL is fine.
The concern, for me at least, is that if your chamber measurement is correct then there is a problem somewhere.
If the round chambers fine without the bullet jamming into the rifling then there's no problem - it just means your chamber measurement wasn't correct.

[<<Genesis93>>]

The using the rifle as a press bit reminds me somewhat of the little Afghani kids sitting on the side of the road, in the Khyber Pass region 'installing' the projectiles with a mallet....was it a BBC doco??

Anyways, the COAL is not as sensitive as the Case length, from a 'fit' rather than performance perspective (consistency is always important with loads and length) which would cause the neck brass to contact the chamber if too long, if too short not as critical...

The COAL though too long may.. may contact the rifling, if too short will have a smidge more gap..contact or pushed into the rifling translates to different pressure characteristics, more initial pressure, perceivable? probably not so much...unless loaded at the extreme...

Freebores might be proj diameter, larger(airspace) or smaller (swage down before the rifling leade)...

Some rounds have a miiiile of a gap (freebore) like the webberies, while others have no freebore so the leade of the rifling starts at the end of the neck or thereabouts...(actually the end of the chamfer refer diagrams).

The 243win has zero freebore*, so depending on the shape/mass of the bullet, at max COAL it might or might not 'touch' or push into the rifling...;

The 243Win has a max CASE length of 51.94 and a minimum Chamber length of 52.2, so as Max case and Min chamber, there is at least (!) 0.26mm of leeway...;

*Freebore is specified as zero / blank (lower case 's' in the chamber spec column), however the leade starts at greater than the projectile AND groove diameter (a plain cone)so there is air space within the 'leade' around the projectile...similar to the 308win, as opposed to the 223Rem where the leade commences at groove diameter both less than proj size.... The rifling commences at about the one-third distance along the 'leade'... so you could say the leade actually commences at that point...

Weatherbys have up to 19mm of freebore, while some chambering have loooong / shallow angle leades like Mauser rounds with over 40mm of leade and gentle shallow leade angles of 14minutes... as opposed to the common 1 to 3 degrees... more or less...

243win. CIP spec;


243Win. chamber;


223Rem chamber;

[Norton]

I actually used the rifle itself as the bullet seating press......an idea I got from a website video.

Mate, whichever website you got that from... Never visit or take advice from it again.

Terrible practice from a reloading point alone, more importantly a disaster just waiting to happen.

[Flyer]

Interesting thread and perhaps I'm also in need of advice.

I've got a .243 Sako 85 and plan to load Sierra 95gr Tipped Match Kings and 100gr SPBT Game Kings. COAL with the Game Kings is 2.725" and so I plan to load to 2.710", or .015" off the lands. So far so good.

The SMKs are a different story. Due to the long ogive, COAL is 2.925" and there is no way I can load anywhere near that with the bullet seated properly. The TMK has a very short bearing surface due to the long boat tail and ogive. If I seat 6mm of the bearing surface into the neck, the OAL is about 2.750". If I seat 4mm, it is 2.830".

From what I've read, Match Kings don't mind a jump, but what would be better: to seat the bullet properly with a .175" jump, or seat it out a bit with a .095" jump? I read the article below and this bloke was seating his TMKs to 2.860" - which leaves just over 3mm of bearing surface in contact with the neck.

http://rifleshooter.com/2016/07/243-win ... rettyPhoto

So what would be best? I have plenty of magazine length, so that's not a consideration.

[brett1868]

"I am actually using the rifle itself as the bullet seating PRESS".......

Gwion / Norton, This is not as stupid as it sounds providing it's done correctly. Some of the BR guys are neck sizing their brass so it has minimal neck tension, they seat a fraction long so that when they close the bolt the ogive contacts the rifling and the projectile seats further into the case. The logic behind this is that neck tension is extremely consistent and they are always seating to the lands reducing 2 variables of consistency. It's an advanced technique and not for beginners as you have rightly identified there can be issues with pressure so you need to know what you're doing. I think the OP may possibly have too much neck tension which is potentially dangerous when approaching maximum loads he'd also be all over the shop with OAL due to large variations in neck tension so not a practise I'd recommend in his situation.

@ColinBentley
Get yourself the Hornady LNL OAL Straight gauge
http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-Load-OAL-Gauge-Straight-1Each/

And to complete the set the Hornady LNL Bullet Comparator
http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-Load-Comparator-Set-Body-and-14-Bullet-Inserts-1-Each/

Both links have a "Videos" tab that gives a good explanation on how to use these tools or get in touch and I can walk you through it in a few minutes.

PM me and ill give you my address so you can send me a couple of fired cases to drill and tap to use with the gauge. Once you have a starting point for max OAL you can tune and adjust from there.

[bladeracer]

Interesting thread and perhaps I'm also in need of advice.

I've got a .243 Sako 85 and plan to load Sierra 95gr Tipped Match Kings and 100gr SPBT Game Kings. COAL with the Game Kings is 2.725" and so I plan to load to 2.710", or .015" off the lands. So far so good.

The SMKs are a different story. Due to the long ogive, COAL is 2.925" and there is no way I can load anywhere near that with the bullet seated properly. The TMK has a very short bearing surface due to the long boat tail and ogive. If I seat 6mm of the bearing surface into the neck, the OAL is about 2.750". If I seat 4mm, it is 2.830".

From what I've read, Match Kings don't mind a jump, but what would be better: to seat the bullet properly with a .175" jump, or seat it out a bit with a .095" jump? I read the article below and this bloke was seating his TMKs to 2.860" - which leaves just over 3mm of bearing surface in contact with the neck.

http://rifleshooter.com/2016/07/243-win ... rettyPhoto

So what would be best? I have plenty of magazine length, so that's not a consideration.

As Match Kings are target bullets I'm guessing you're not hunting with them?
In which case I wouldn't be concerned about the magazine length or the neck depth.
As long as the bullet is secure enough to tolerate feeding without moving I would just seat them to the depth that gives best accuracy. I would think 3mm would be secure enough for that, although as the throat erodes that may become more tenuous.
But with the long-ogive bullets I think it's pretty much a requirement that you measure COAL along the ogive rather than to the tip if you want consistent jump.

[Flyer]

Yep, target shooting. The beauty of the Tipped Match Kings is they all measure a consistent length - 1.169" - but I was under the impression that the seating dies act on the ogive in any case - not the tip - which should give consistent clearance between each ogive and the lands. Is that correct? The Game Kings are not as consistent, due to the soft points, but I have a dummy projectile I use to measure COAL and set up the seating die each time and simply ignore the OAL of each seated bullet.

[bladeracer]

Yep, target shooting. The beauty of the Tipped Match Kings is they all measure a consistent length - 1.169" - but I was under the impression that the seating dies act on the ogive in any case - not the tip - which should give consistent clearance between each ogive and the lands. Is that correct? The Game Kings are not as consistent, due to the soft points, but I have a dummy projectile I use to measure COAL and set up the seating die each time and simply ignore the OAL of each seated bullet.

The seating die does seat along the ogive.
The COAL's you listed implied that you are measuring to the bullet tips is all.
But as long as you ignore the COAL then you're on the right track.

[Flyer]

Yes, sorry, I was measuring to the bullet tip - I didn't think to measure at the ogive. I guess I could do that by colouring in the projectile and pushing it in until the lands left a mark on it? Thanks also for the seating advice.

[Gwion]

"I am actually using the rifle itself as the bullet seating PRESS".......

Gwion / Norton, This is not as stupid as it sounds providing it's done correctly. Some of the BR guys are neck sizing their brass so it has minimal neck tension, they seat a fraction long so that when they close the bolt the ogive contacts the rifling and the projectile seats further into the case. The logic behind this is that neck tension is extremely consistent and they are always seating to the lands reducing 2 variables of consistency. It's an advanced technique and not for beginners as you have rightly identified there can be issues with pressure so you need to know what you're doing. I think the OP may possibly have too much neck tension which is potentially dangerous when approaching maximum loads he'd also be all over the shop with OAL due to large variations in neck tension so not a practise I'd recommend in his situation.

@ColinBentley
Get yourself the Hornady LNL OAL Straight gauge
http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-Load-OAL-Gauge-Straight-1Each/

And to complete the set the Hornady LNL Bullet Comparator
http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-Load-Comparator-Set-Body-and-14-Bullet-Inserts-1-Each/

Both links have a "Videos" tab that gives a good explanation on how to use these tools or get in touch and I can walk you through it in a few minutes.

PM me and ill give you my address so you can send me a couple of fired cases to drill and tap to use with the gauge. Once you have a starting point for max OAL you can tune and adjust from there.

Brett, I have been experimenting with exactly what you mention. It works very well for accuracy. BUT. I am not using the rifle as a press; I am seating the bullet long in my press and the minimal neck tension allows the ogive/bullet depth to adjust to the lands on every round. ALSO. I am using these for range work only. Loading like this for hunting when the ammo will be jostled and bounced around is fool hardy. ALSO, I would not suggest that some one new to hand loading and still trying to figure out their reloading practices should even contemplate loading like this as there are significant risks involved, as touched on above.

[brett1868]

Brett, I have been experimenting with exactly what you mention. It works very well for accuracy. BUT. I am not using the rifle as a press; I am seating the bullet long in my press and the minimal neck tension allows the ogive/bullet depth to adjust to the lands on every round. ALSO. I am using these for range work only. Loading like this for hunting when the ammo will be his sled and bounced around is fool hardy. ALSO, I would not suggest that some one new to hand loading and still trying to figure out their reloading practices should even contemplate loading like this as there are significant risks involved, as touched on above

Yep, we're definitely on the same page here. I didn't add the hunting warning for low tension necks which is a good point as they are only suited to single loading cause any recoil will upset the depth leading to possible injury. I'd have thought the using the rifle as a press wouldn't be possible to seat a projectile given the effort required and risk of jamming the pill in the rifling so maybe a better explanation from Colin on what he means would help.

We'll get Colin on the right path and when comfortable he can move onto the more technical aspects of reloading.
I'll post some pictures later tonight if I get time about why projectiles should be trimmed, measured and sorted cause COAL isn't the most accurate way to seat. Also the Tip - Ogive - Base measurements can vary by a few thou which adds a new variable when seating.