A question about 7.62 x 54r

[Supaduke]

I have been doing some online window shopping and will be picking up a Mosin Nagant, either a 91/30 or an M44. I have seen quite a few rifles in very good condition at a very reasonable price

I'm sure there is surplus ammo still around but inevitably I will have to reload for it.
A brief bit of research has informed me the bullet diameter is .311

Does this mean I can use .303 projectiles? Or do I need to source some Mosin specific bullets

Please educate me

Thanks in advance

[Oldbloke]

I just checked my old hornady manual, says 303 is .312 caibre???

[Supaduke]

Modern .303 jacketed are .311, but you can special order .312 and .313.

More research has informed me that Mosin nagant bore tolerances are , lets say relaxed. I guess I'm just going to have to slug the bore and see what we end up with.

I guess it depends who you ask and what it was measured with.

[bladeracer]

I have been doing some online window shopping and will be picking up a Mosin Nagant, either a 91/30 or an M44. I have seen quite a few rifles in very good condition at a very reasonable price

I'm sure there is surplus ammo still around but inevitably I will have to reload for it.
A brief bit of research has informed me the bullet diameter is .311

Does this mean I can use .303 projectiles? Or do I need to source some Mosin specific bullets

Please educate me

Thanks in advance

First thing you need to do is slug the bore to confirm it's diameter.
I don't own a Mosin yet but it sounds similar to my 6.5x52mm Carcano problem.
Most 6.5mm's are .264", the Carcano is .268".
I tried .264" bullets without success, they shoot, but the gas just bypasses the bullet in the bore resulting in very little velocity. 32gn of AR2206H got me 700fps behind the 95gn VMax .264". 30gn of AR2206H got me 1990fps behind a Hornady .243" 75gn HP bullet patched with photocopy paper up to .270".
Yesterday I received a batch of fired .17WSM brass which I've cut up and pressed .243" bullets into. Finished size is .269".

I haven't tried .308" bullets in the .303 yet, but I've got a nice .303 load using Hornady's .312" 100gn pistol bullet - http://www.hornady.com/store/.312-32-CAL. I can't see any reason you can't use the same bullet in the Mosin if it slugs to .311". I got several hundred bullets with the rifle, plus I've cast several hundred more so I haven't looked at buying any more as yet. But I wanted a nice light load so I tried the 32-cal pistol bullet.

[juststarting]

1. If you doing M44, then go for M38
2. Diameter - my 91/30 slugs to 310 so 311 is about right but I need to do it a few times.
3. Dm sent

[Supaduke]

I've ended up getting a 91/30 from Claremonts in WA. $530 delivered to vic with a sling, bayonet, pouch and a few other goodies. Judging by what I have seen it's about $80 worth of accessories (retail) and freight was $85.

It's supposed to be a 1950's arsenal refurb and in excellent condition. I'm taking a punt. And judging by some of the overpriced crap I have seen at some militaria shows and online, it seems like a pretty good deal.

I really liked the carbines as well. I decided to go with a full length rifle. I already have a couple of Mauser carbines so I thought I would get something different.

[juststarting]

That's where I got both of mine. No complaints, what so ever.

[bladeracer]

1. If you doing M44, then go for M38
2. Diameter - my 91/30 slugs to 310 so 311 is about right but I need to do it a few times.
3. Dm sent

Have you tried .308 bullets yet?
I've read that heavy blunt 160gn RN .264" bullets can sometimes work in the .268" Carcano.
It seems due to the weight and very long bearing surface, the base of the bullet obturates just enough to get pressure before the front of the bullet starts moving. Haven't tried them yet but I have some coming, a couple weeks away.

[juststarting]

I haven't tried 308, so far I've been using:

- factory ammo
- surplus ammo
- handloads with modern components but pulled surplus projectiles

[Supaduke]

That's where I got both of mine. No complaints, what so ever.

Cheers, thats reassuring. I knew a few blokes that have purchased various rifles from there, no complaints from anyone.

Always a bit sweat inducing dropping cash on a secondhand rifle unseen.

The last Russian rifle I saw was at the Bendigo militaria show, it was banged up, not a great bore and he wanted $650....yeeeaaah......naaaa

But he sold it so meh

[bladeracer]

I haven't tried 308, so far I've been using:

- factory ammo
- surplus ammo
- handloads with modern components but pulled surplus projectiles

Is the factory ammo using .308" or .311" bullets?

[juststarting]

No idea dude

[No1Mk3]

G'day Supaduke,
I feel you're comparing apples with pears. I looked at a couple of Nagants at Bendigo, one was an ex-Tula 91/30 sniper returned to service, but the marks were still visible, and to a collector like me valued at over $1000. The other was a 91, all of which are $500+ regardless of condition. As to the bore, like a lot of Soviet gear the manufacturing limits were quite loose and the bore could vary from .306 to .318 from new. Slugging yours is the only way to determine which projectile is going to give the best accuracy. In keeping with the Soviet practice, military surplus ammo also varies in size from .309 to .311, 150g flat base.For very best accuracy from a Mosin Nagant, buy a Finn! Cheers,

[Supaduke]

Funny you should say that. I nearly went for a fin. I like m39's and it's next on my list. I currently have a k31 on order coming in direct from Switzerland.

I had a few spare bucks and I've never had a Russian before , so I thought hey why not get a mozzie.

M39 I'm looking at is the best part of one gorilla and more than my gun budget currently allows.

[No1Mk3]

A K is about normal for a good M39 these days, more if you can find a M28 or 28/30. You'll like the K31, great rifle. Just got to get used to rapid prone, as the brass goes straight up then lands on your neck! Forgot to say, I use Hornady 150g .3105 303 projectiles in all my Nagants, and they shoot quite well with them. Cheers

[juststarting]

x

[juststarting]

A K is about normal for a good M39 these days, more if you can find a M28 or 28/30. You'll like the K31, great rifle. Just got to get used to rapid prone, as the brass goes straight up then lands on your neck! Forgot to say, I use Hornady 150g .3105 303 projectiles in all my Nagants, and they shoot quite well with them. Cheers

And there you have it, tested supported evidence

[duncan61]

I love all this stuff.I only have boring normal stuff.222.243 7mm rem.I live 10 km from the Claremont store.I am so going there soon.I am going to need a bigger safe.

[Supaduke]

Thanks for doing that JS. It makes sense it would be .310 . The bore diameter is .300 . By all reports, the groove diameter varied from .309 to .312 so it would seem they settled on a safe middle ground to accommodate sloppy barrel tolerances. Hopefully I get lucky and get a good shooter.

The internet makes me laugh sometimes. It reminds me of the scene in 'The Matrix' where they plug the probe into keanu reeves head, he has a little fit, then pops his eyes open and....

"I know Kung Fu!!"

I feel I know a bit about Mosins now
Who doesn't love an armchair expert

[TheDude]

Gotta love the mosin nagant. I've got a Finnish capture Tula 91/30 and a Chinese type 53 (M44 clone).

[bladeracer]

Coincidentally, I stopped by a place this arvo just in case they might've had some 6.5x52mm surplus ammo on the shelf, and spotted an M91 Mosin Nagant on the rack. I might have to get in again tomorrow and grab it

[juststarting]

"Coincidentally"

[bladeracer]

"Coincidentally"

Honest, I was just glancing across the racks while he was looking through his ammo.
I spotted a sporterised .303, then an M38 Swede...and then the Mosin. Didn't notice any others after that
Still chasing a 6.5mm Arisaka though.

[juststarting]

Hey, I don't judge, I go to fun shops just to buy something. s**t, I don't even know what until I am there. Who am I to judge.

[bladeracer]

Hey, I don't judge, I go to fun shops just to buy something. s**t, I don't even know what until I am there. Who am I to judge.

I only go to one gun shop when I have to pick up a rifle or powder, primers or ammo.
I almost never drop into shops just to browse. I prefer to find out what I want and then just get it
For that reason, I guess it seems far more of a coincidence than it might to somebody that hangs out at gun shops every week

I also found a guy today that can supply me with brass and copper rod so I can make my own bullets on the lathe, picking up some stock next week.

[Supaduke]

I have to admit I don't find the Mosin the most handsome rifle. My no.4 I think is the most handsome of milsurp rifles. But damn I have to respect mozzies, the history behind them is amazing.

The one I'm getting is a 1941 from izhveck (I know I spelt that wrong) so it's more than likely it saw some action. Most probably the battle of Stalingrad. It's 30 years older than me and I feel I can give it a nice retirement. It will be cared for and treated kindly. Can't have a milsurp collection without a mozzie.

And I too am guilty of occasionally going to a gun shop for no real reason other than an urge to buy something. I always peruse the gun racks. I find as I am getting older I have more interest in old and classic firearms.

I keep looking at the front stuffers...one day I will dive in.

[Heckler303]

Mosins serve their purpose well.


No other rifle can be substituted as a fencepost as well as a mosin.


(no hard feelings JS, still making it through full-length resizing those cases )

[reloader762]

I have a couple of Mosin rifles,my M44 is a 1945 round receiver Izhevsk refurb & my 91/30 is a 1933 HEX receiver Tula stock only referb both of which I ended up doing a cork bedding and stock refinish on.

The M44 has a .312" groove bore while the 91/30 has a .313" groove bore. On a scale of 1 to 5,1 being an excellent bore and 5 being the worst I rate both of mine according to pics I've seen at a 2 the rifling is strong and the bore is nice an smooth. I've only shot surplus and component jacketed bullets I reload in the M44. I have several types of surplus ammo Bulgarian old brass case light & heavy ball ammo made back in the mid 50's which doesn't shoot well at all in the M44 as is,bullet dia. is at .310" and it's loaded fairly hot. I ended up breaking down most of it an either reducing the charge weight by 2.0 grs. resizing the neck and reseating the bullets all to the same OAL an groups shrunk down to about 3" at 100 yds. which I though was fairly acceptable.

The Bulgarian HB cases were of much better quality brass and had been stored under better conditions so I broke some of that down as well an replaced the bullet with a Speer .311" Hot Core SP bullets a friend gave me form his old 303 British days for hunting purposes since at the time no commercial 54r hunting ammo other than Norma at $1 was available.


My favorite surplus ammo is the Yugoslavian brass case 182 gr. .311" FMJ which is all copper jacket lead core ammo,it shot under 3" right out of the box so I put that away in my stash for a rainy day.


I also have Russian an Bulgarian steel case light ball ammo made in the 70's & 80's but it's still in the sealed tins. Pretty much ever since I started casting my own bullets I hardly ever shoot a jacket bullet these days although I have plenty stashed away for a rainy day. I can pretty much do anything with a cast lead bullet I can do with the more expensive jacketed bullet as to target shooting or hunting. My two favorite bullets for either Mosin are the Lee .312" 160 gr. tumble lube or the Lee .312" 185 gr. RN bullets both which use a gas check. In the past I've used a mix of Alox / Johnson Paste Wax tumble lube for most all my rifle bullet but for the standard grease groove bullet I now have a RCBS lubesizer and I powder coat as well but I haven't had much time to experiment with the PC'ed rifle bullet as of yet.

Alliant 2400 has been my go to powder for general purpose shooting in the Mosin's 16.0 grs. is a very accurate load in both rifle for mid range velocity around 1600 fps. For HV cast loads which is going to top out at around 2K fps. accuracy wise with 185 gr. bullets in the 1:10 twist bore I'm working up my load using H-4895 currently up to around 1700 fps. using 33.0 grs. which is only around 78% load density. I should be getting close to Max velocity/RPM/accuracy at around 90% load density. Once I find that load with the standard cast lubed gas check bullet I can work on some PC'ed versions of that bullet.

Some unlubed 185 gr. bullets


Some 160's loaded and ready to shoot.


Test group out of the 91/30 using the Lee 185 gr. bullet cast for wheel weights and water quench straight from the mold gas checked,lubed with 2500+ and sized to .314"


My $100 91/30 after the refinish.


My M44 after the refinish.

[Wobble]

Groups to match on the M44

[Sydor]

This thread is quite illuminating.
The milsurp ammo from the Soviet block was made after Mosin's rifles stopped being used as a standard issue rifle for the infantry. As you know it was replaced with SKS and then AK.
This ammo was only used for (another) great Kalashnikov's firearm - PK Pulemiot Kalashnikova - Soviet rifle caliber machine gun. And accuracy was not the main priority for a machine gun.

Soviet designated marksmen were issued SVD and "sniper ammo" that was made much more accurate, and rarely or even never made into surplus sales.