Powder Contamination

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Powder Contamination

Post by DaleH » 26 Nov 2013, 4:37 pm

Hi guys,
I was wondering if anyone has had a similar experience as me (read - "has stuffed up like i did") regarding contamination of powder.

I was cleaning up some dirty 44 mag brass and used a petroleum based degreaser from Bunnings as a final cleaning step as this is what I had on hand. - i left the brass ~1/2 day to dry before reloading and they looked and felt dry at the time.

For the reloads, I lubed the projectiles with a squirt of Liquid Alox and left them to dry for 24 hrs (still a little tacky at time of reloading).

Proceeded with reloading which was a combination of new brass and old brass with AR 2205 (the old brass being the degreased stuff and kept separate from the new when loaded).
When firing, the new brass went fine. The old brass provided erratic results and no where near the loads in the new brass.
I kept a couple of each type (new brass / old brass) and pulled them apart when I got home.

The powder from the new brass looked light in color and dry like powder straight from the tin. The old brass powder looked decidedly darker and clumped together additionally there was a yellow residue inside the case. Photo of powder is attached - the darker is from the old cases.
I ignited the collected powders from the cases and there appeared to be no difference in the way they burnt.

My thoughts are that there was residual degreaser (and maybe Alox) in contact with the powder and this somehow - Harry Potter Magic - contaminated the powder and interfered with its burning.

Has anyone come across this before?
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DaleH
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by Norton » 27 Nov 2013, 6:23 am

DaleH wrote:I ignited the collected powders from the cases and there appeared to be no difference in the way they burnt.


Burning it maybe not, under pressure though I expect it's a different story.

The powder on the left almost looks like it's wet... Way more than I'd expect from some residual lube.

That's definitely the only source? Couldn't have been a bad tub of powder that got left open/somewhere it shouldn't have been?
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by buster » 27 Nov 2013, 7:35 am

Norton wrote:The powder on the left almost looks like it's wet... Way more than I'd expect from some residual lube.

That's definitely the only source?


That was my first thought too.

It looks like it's soaked through, not just picked up a little around the outside of the brass.
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by Wheelbarrow » 27 Nov 2013, 8:12 am

DaleH wrote:My thoughts are that there was residual degreaser (and maybe Alox) in contact with the powder and this somehow - Harry Potter Magic - contaminated the powder and interfered with its burning.


That would have been my thought too but like the guys have said, that seems like a lot more than just 'residue' ?
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by Hardcast » 27 Nov 2013, 9:38 am

I do remember trying alsorts of things to clean cases with including petrol. It never worked for me, so wondering if the petroleum based degreeser is
leaving a residue that just happens to interact with powder. I know I use unleaded petrol every morning at work to clean Texta off plastic boxes, and it leaves a residue. Unlike the petrol from years ago which pretty well used to leave a dry almost white look about it and no residue.
I guess a small amount of powder surrounded by the residue, would certainly interact. Probably a bit thicker around the square corner of the case near the primer.

I soak my cases in Auto Thinners for at least 2 hours to remove any residue that might be about, then I blow every case out with compressed air.
It works very well, done it that way for about 8 years and some of the neck sized cases have been reloaded 20 odd times. probably more.

Hope you find the answer.
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by DaleH » 27 Nov 2013, 10:23 am

Thanks for the input guys.
Just to confirm, the powder was from the same tin and the clean cases were loaded first and then I did the degreased cases all out of the same load in the powder thrower.
This weekend i am going to re-wash the cases and and rinse in hot soapy water, dry them in the sun (this means "oven) when the Mrs isnt around) and then reload and try again.
I will also do a bit of "CSI" work to see if I can replicate the effect out of the case. Will let you know how I get on.
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by Vati » 27 Nov 2013, 10:31 am

DaleH wrote:Just to confirm, the powder was from the same tin and the clean cases were loaded first and then I did the degreased cases all out of the same load in the powder thrower.


If it's all out of the same tin/thrower then I guess that's your answer.

Must have been picked up from inside the brass.

Degrease thoroughly obviously... But probably worth trying another cleaner/degreaser too in case the one you're using has a particularly undesirable reaction with powder, even if there are only traces left over.
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by DaleH » 27 Nov 2013, 10:37 am

All powder was from the same tin and thrower load - I loaded the new cases and then followed with the degreased ones.

I will do a bit of "reloading CSI" this weekend and re-clean and wash in hot soapy water the degreased cases and dry them in the sun (NB - this means "oven" when the Mrs isn't home) load them up and fire them again.
I will also try to "reverse engineer" the contamination and see what I can come up with - will let you know how it goes.

Thanks all for your input.
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by Blackened » 27 Nov 2013, 2:58 pm

Let us know how you go.

I'm interested to see just how little contamination you had to get the powder so far off.

If you've got the time it would be appreciated.
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by DaleH » 01 Dec 2013, 11:58 pm

Just a follow up guys.

contamination was due to degreaser residue. Whatever it was, there was enough to also effect the operation of the primers. I emptied the cases, cleaned off the projectiles in boiling soapy water, dried them and reloaded with fresh powder - erratic results - looks like the byproducts of the degreaser and powder either got into the primer hole and partially blocked it or interfered with the primer operation. Go a missfire on one of the reloads. Disassembled and tried to set off the primer in the rifle and by igniting powder in the case to no avail - looks like it well and truly stuffed the primer.

Note to everyone - do not use the red degreaser that you can get from Bunnings - if you do, wash everything in hot soapy water before use.
I have now got the next week to beat the crap out of my bullet puller to recovery all the cases and projectiles - I will fire off all the primers once I have the cases emptied and start from scratch
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by reddog » 02 Dec 2013, 6:45 am

Have you tried a mix of normal white vinegar and lemon juice in water . Chuck your cases in leave them for a while then
rinse with clean water then dry them , works for me .
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by Xerox » 02 Dec 2013, 8:09 am

reddog wrote:Have you tried a mix of normal white vinegar and lemon juice in water . Chuck your cases in leave them for a while then
rinse with clean water then dry them , works for me .


Good old vinegar and lemon.

Fixes everything :D
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by DaleH » 02 Dec 2013, 9:18 pm

worth a try!
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by Lorgar » 03 Dec 2013, 7:37 am

How'd you go Dale?

Figure it out?
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by DaleH » 03 Dec 2013, 9:59 am

Was definitely the degreaser I used.
I pulled apart more of the reloaded cartridges and they were all the same - some of them so bad that the flash hole was blocked up with yellow gunk (one of the primers would not go off at all).
Cleaned the projectiles and cases (hot soapy water this time) and reloaded with fresh primers and powder (same batched as I used previously) and all fired fine with good velocities and not erratic like the last batch. So the only thing changed between this run and the last was the degreaser.
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by whert » 03 Dec 2013, 1:47 pm

DaleH wrote:Was definitely the degreaser I used.


Oh well, lesson learned.

At least the only problem you had was poor accuracy and nothing went bang which wasn't supposed to.
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by Blackened » 03 Dec 2013, 2:40 pm

DaleH wrote:Was definitely the degreaser I used.


Cool, thanks for the update.

Surprising that so little could contaminate the powder so badly.
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by DaleH » 03 Dec 2013, 3:03 pm

Would like to find out exactly what the reaction was and if there are any other potential problems - I have dropped the guys at ADI an email and will let you know if I hear anything back.
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by Yelp » 03 Dec 2013, 3:08 pm

DaleH wrote:Cleaned the projectiles and cases (hot soapy water this time) and reloaded with fresh primers and powder (same batched as I used previously) and all fired fine with good velocities and not erratic like the last batch.


Didn't bother with lemon/vinegar or any of that in the end?
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by DaleH » 03 Dec 2013, 3:35 pm

Soapy water did the trick of cleaning the degreaser and the other crap. I thought I would try the easy one first (boil the kettle and pour water into container with a good squirt of detergent then rinse with boiling water). Once out of the soapy water you could feel the difference on the surface of the cases.
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by Warrigul » 03 Dec 2013, 6:56 pm

I have never used degreaser etc on cases, I occaisonally get some flake carbon come out when I tap them upside down but it has never been an issue. I have cases that have been reloaded up to 30 times without any issue.

I think some people worry about case cleanliness a bit too much.
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by agentzero » 03 Dec 2013, 8:08 pm

Warrigul wrote:I occaisonally get some flake carbon come out when I tap them upside down but it has never been an issue.


Too little to make and difference to case density/velocity I suppose if it's only a flake or two?
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by Warrigul » 03 Dec 2013, 8:35 pm

agentzero wrote:Too little to make and difference to case density/velocity I suppose if it's only a flake or two?


With the .308 reloads they were match grade F Class loads, I annealed, body sized, length trimmed, occaisonally polished the outside with steel wool but NEVER cleaned out the inside other than a tap on a wooden block and a scratch with a piece of wire occaisonally to check for seperation. I had very little vertical stringing which is the biggest indicator of load variation.

However there are sound reasons why cleaning cases should make a difference and if done properly it can't hurt to do(and they look nice), I just wouldn't use degreaser.
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by Granting » 04 Dec 2013, 8:46 am

Warrigul wrote:...but NEVER cleaned out the inside other than a tap on a wooden block and a scratch with a piece of wire occaisonally to check for seperation.


Same, I never both to clean inside brass.

I figure tumbling will always take out what it can and the same amount of residue will always be in side the case, so it's still consistent whether always clean or always dirty inside.
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by Warrigul » 04 Dec 2013, 9:54 am

Granting wrote:
Warrigul wrote:...but NEVER cleaned out the inside other than a tap on a wooden block and a scratch with a piece of wire occaisonally to check for seperation.


Same, I never both to clean inside brass.

I figure tumbling will always take out what it can and the same amount of residue will always be in side the case, so it's still consistent whether always clean or always dirty inside.


There is someone out there with OC disorder insisting that it is neccesary, honestly somewhere after the 10,000th reload(I kept track of how many primers I had used up to this point but haven't bothered for a couple of years now) load it stopped being fun for me and became a chore that has to be done, so I look for ways to make it less work for me.

Keeping the insides of my cases is not on my list of things to do(with the exception of the odd bit of blackpowder I shoot).
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by remnt » 04 Dec 2013, 10:07 am

Warrigul wrote:honestly somewhere after the 10,000th reload


Soooo, you've been shooting for a while then? :lol:
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by Warrigul » 04 Dec 2013, 10:15 am

remnt wrote:
Warrigul wrote:honestly somewhere after the 10,000th reload


Soooo, you've been shooting for a while then? :lol:


I have only been reloading for seven years, the first three years were .223, .243 .308, .300 win mag and .303 rifle for hunting and range work only, then LOTS of .38 and .357, cadet, hornet, mauser etc as well.

It doesn't take long to rack up a few thousand when you are reloading for a centerfire pistol or three, it is not as impressive as it sounds. I did the right thing last year and made a couple of mates learn how to reload for themselves.

For pistol I am a big fan of nickel cases, carbide dies, I never clean primer pockets and I never do a batch of less than 1000 cases.
Last edited by Warrigul on 04 Dec 2013, 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by Rippah » 04 Dec 2013, 10:17 am

I was having a chat with the pistol guy at my local range. He reckons you go through 5,000 rounds a year comp shooting if you're doing it "properly".
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by Warrigul » 04 Dec 2013, 10:21 am

Rippah wrote:I was having a chat with the pistol guy at my local range. He reckons you go through 5,000 rounds a year comp shooting if you're doing it "properly".


Yep, there is a reason so many progressive presses are sold in pistol calibres.
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Re: Powder Contamination

Post by Rocker » 04 Dec 2013, 1:16 pm

Rippah wrote:I was having a chat with the pistol guy at my local range. He reckons you go through 5,000 rounds a year comp shooting if you're doing it "properly".


Someone's obviously earning a lot more than me to be shooting it all away :lol:
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