Will diff primers effect accuracy

[Garth]

I shoot a 30.06 but lately can't get close to the target.I have changed scopes didn't work checked rifle all good .Iam using 47 G n 2208 165 gn projectiles as always but started using s b primers .I have even taken muzzle brake off tried that bullts shoot about 4 inch under target. .with brake on shoots up about same .so am trying different primers and 2209 hope works sending me nuts Help

[Barnard]

not usually by a large amount,.......but yes different primers can have an effect on accuracy.

have you checked the rifles bedding, scope bases, or crown even?

[Garth]

Yes guns only shot about 500 rounds checked bedding seams OK just got it back from Ginsburg's couple month back got brake put on cheers

[Garth]

Gunsmiths

[brett1868]

How did it shoot before the brake was fitted? Is the brake a clamp on or screw on type?

[Garth]

Screw on I thought maybe the brake so shot it without it on still crap just can't put my finger on it. So going to try different primers and 2209 .I don't thinking will change much .but IL give it a try if not back to gunsmiths

[brett1868]

I'll try again....how did it shoot before the brake? Has it ever shot well?

[Oldbloke]

"bullts shoot about 4 inch under target."

Am I misunderstanding? Has point of impact changed? Or groups larger.?

[Garth]

It did shoot a bit better before brake but was never a a real accurate rifle yes did shoot groups

[brett1868]

I'm thinking crown was damaged or not turned cleanly when the barrel was threaded for the brake.

[Garth]

Cheers Bret thank you can't think of any think else I will take it back see what they say

[bladeracer]

I shoot a 30.06 but lately can't get close to the target.I have changed scopes didn't work checked rifle all good .Iam using 47 G n 2208 165 gn projectiles as always but started using s b primers .I have even taken muzzle brake off tried that bullts shoot about 4 inch under target. .with brake on shoots up about same .so am trying different primers and 2209 hope works sending me nuts Help

Not sure exactly what you mean about "can't get close to the target" - just how far off zero is your rifle?
If it's shooting four-inches low are you saying that even adjusting the scope elevation it still shoots low?

I've been using Remington 7-1/2 and 9-1/2M's, but I've also tried the odd packet of CCI and a several hundred non-magnum 9-1/2's.
I also used 100 Federals that I've had since '83.
No measurable difference with any of them in a variety of calibers, bullet weights and velocities.

[Garth]

Even adjusting scope still shoots all over the place tried 50 yards still does same

[<<Genesis93>>]

It did shoot a bit better before brake but was never a a real accurate rifle yes did shoot groups

partly answered it....
Were you using the SAME loads before?

Was it a new/old rifle...

the 'smith.... may have had a hand in this, check the crown take a pic and post...

Note your load is at the 'soft' end, bump it up a few notches... then report back to base

The primer will make a difference, eg a mag primer might engulf the whole or majority of the powder column in the 06...while a standard not, so it would certainly alter the pressure characteristic (internal ballistics) but provided you use the SAME primer, your POI shouldnt change....

[Oldbloke]

Sooo, how big r the groups at 50 yards?

[Garth]

Same loads groups I guess you can call it groups are inches apart .look I shoot a shot it might be 4 it more inches low of bulls eye next shot can go any were .must be the crown. Can't hunk of any think else

[brett1868]

Check the bedding / action screws / scope mounts and scope along with the crown since it would have been removed from the stock to thread the barrel. All being fair dinkum that's all that could have changed during the process. Could simply be a buggered reticle or loose mount, I had this on a rifle couple years back where the rail was hand tight but recoil loose resulting in unexplained and frustrating vertical stringing.

[Garth]

Done all that taking back to Gunsmiths they can work it out thanks every one

[Oldbloke]

Does not sound like change of primers. Like Brett said, something loose or a dodgy job on the barrel crown.
Has happened to me too.

[Garth]

Well I think found the cause s**t scope rings .couldn't feel any movement but Smith took it apart was movement .the mounts are squarish the ring screws round was jumping when I shot the 30.06. You could see where it was rubbing the guy is good $130 set steel rings and am good to go hast to of been the prob .notch up a bit more knowledge cheers ever one

[Garth]

Well it was scope rings can't believe it every think seemed tight .took to Gunsmiths . Was round scope base screws going into square grooves on mounts ..could see where it was scraping from30.06 recoil lesson cheap crap rings got some steel rings $130 but helices and learn get what you're for. Thank guys for advice towered correct

[brett1868]

Well it was scope rings can't believe it every think seemed tight .took to Gunsmiths . Was round scope base screws going into square grooves on mounts ..could see where it was scraping from30.06 recoil lesson cheap crap rings got some steel rings $130 but helices and learn get what you're for. Thank guys for advice towered correct

Sweet....always good to solve a mystery, I know personally how frustrating these problems can get. Good luck and report back on how it groups now

[WaltzingMatilda]

Definitely sounds mechanical to me and I'd be looking at the crown, bedding and locking lugs. BUT there is another possibility - and please don't be offended. The 30-06 offers a recoil which is close to threshold. I'm guessing that you have noticed this by the light loads (47 gn of 2208 is fairly low) and the muzzle break has been added for a reason. This can lead to a nasty flinch and loss of your group.

I've trained a lot of shooters over the years and it's not uncommon for folk to develop a flinch without knowing it (especially with service rifles). So go back to basics - good body position, cheek on the stock, breathing and determine your natural point of aim. Then go through a dry firing exercise and see if you are pulling off-centre. If this is happening then you will need to work at the dry firing and perhaps get some coaching.

Give it a go.

Walt

[Garth]

Well back to the board rifle still doing at 50 yard still same 100 nothing .so not scope not primers not the load not flinching .back to gun Smith feel like throwing it into a furnace ha ha dam thing

[Gwion]

Put some black texta on the back of your locking lugs. Use a fired case in the chamber and close/open the bolt a few times. Take bolt out and check to see how much ink has worn off. Ideally both surfaces of the lugs should be evenly and almost completely worn off. If one or the other has no wear, or significantly less wear, then it can effect accuracy. It's a simple test to diagnose an issue here. It is unlikely that this will effect your accuracy as much as you say but it could be contributing, as mentioned above.

Next. Remove barrelled action from stock and look for obvious shiny patches or marks on the action, stock bedding and barrel channel. If nothing is obvious, get that texta out again and paint the action where it meets the bedding (don't worry, metho or turps will clean it). Put the rifle back together and fire off a dozen rounds or so. Pull it apart again and look for uneven wear and signs of pressure points (small patches completely worn off; the black stuff will now be on the coresponding section of stock). Signs of uneven wear here indicate bedding issues which will have a significant effect on accuracy. You can bed it yourself or get someone experienced to do it for you.

Finally, remove any brakes, muzzle caps or what have you. Clean the barrel/bore and any powder residue at the crown. Shoot 10 or 20 rounds then examine the barrel crown. Powder residue should be making a nice, even star burst pattern on the crown with the lands defining the gaps between the bursts. If these bursts and gaps are irregular or ill defined it is an indication of crown issues.

A competent smith will be able to sort out all these issues. The lugs can be lapped even or cut on a lathe but if cut on a lath then the barrel should be removed and the bearing surfaces in the action cut to match. If all this is going on you may as well get the bolt face cut true to these as well.

A good crown cut should be a simple job for any smith worthy of business.

Bedding takes time to do properly and so a good job will not be cheap. There are some good tutorials available and products online to do it yourself if you have the time and aptitude to pay attention to detail.

There are also basic trouble shooting things to sort out with technique before you go looking for problems with the rifle. Be sure you are not the source of concern by carefully addressing issues like checking that your rests aren't interferring with sling mounts under recoil; if using a bi-pod, is it properly secured and are you loading it properly/evenly, shot to shot; is the load you are using remotely suited to your rifle; is your eye relief and cheek weld even, aligned and consistent.....

The list goes on. Systematically work through all these issues one at a time and look for improvements and if the rifle is still not shooting straight, sell it and take up knitting.

Edited multiple times because my phone and auto correct are a pain in the arse!

[<<Genesis93>>]

Well back to the board rifle still doing at 50 yard still same 100 nothing .so not scope not primers not the load not flinching .back to gun Smith feel like throwing it into a furnace ha ha dam thing

Garth, stop throwing money at this smith.

-It was OK

-went to smith

-Was not OK

If I have got that part correct so far....

-Smith worked on pointy end

yes?

Then check to see Mr Smith DID NOT F$ck up your rifle.

Take a pic of the crown (feel like I've already suggested that)
Have a look down the tube...... I was after all attached to a heavy rotating machine... get my drift??

Perhaps it could still be a fitment thing, action to stock....

good luck

[Gwion]

I was trying not to put it so bluntly as Gen, but yes, you might be best served to look for a new "smith". However, I believe you mentioned that the gun never shot so well in the first place. As Brett first indicated, crown is most likely issue but there are obviously pre-existing issues. The change in harmonics after the work may just be amplifying these issues (hence the huge difference in POI with brake on/off). It could also be amplified by poorly suited load.
Testing for mechanical faults as described above will at least help identify where issues lie. Post pics of test results if it helps.

That 8" difference in POI with bake on/off seems excessive. What is the barrel profile and what make/model of rifle?

[Gwion]

Ps. Not to be rude but have you actually eliminated yourself as being the major issue by asking a proven, accurate shooter to try a few groups for you?

[Garth]

Had half a dozen people shoot it all target shooter like me still does same .no one can work it out Smith's cost me nothing so far .some guys had similar prob barrel whip got new varmint barrel prob went away .the gun is a mossburgs patriot 30.06 I have been trying to Elli men at each prob.rings scope loads primers .barrel doesn't touch stock all good no flinching .action seams fine all screw are fine got me

[Gwion]

From a quick search of the Mossberg site, this rifle is factory tested (in 308) to be a 2MOA gun at best.

What are you actually getting and what are you expecting from this rifle?