Will diff primers effect accuracy

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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by Oldbloke » 09 Feb 2017, 3:26 pm

Does not sound like change of primers. Like Brett said, something loose or a dodgy job on the barrel crown.
Has happened to me too.
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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by Garth » 09 Feb 2017, 6:29 pm

Well I think found the cause s**t scope rings .couldn't feel any movement but Smith took it apart was movement .the mounts are squarish the ring screws round was jumping when I shot the 30.06. You could see where it was rubbing the guy is good $130 set steel rings and am good to go hast to of been the prob .notch up a bit more knowledge cheers ever one
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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by Garth » 09 Feb 2017, 9:21 pm

Well it was scope rings can't believe it every think seemed tight .took to Gunsmiths . Was round scope base screws going into square grooves on mounts ..could see where it was scraping from30.06 recoil lesson cheap crap rings got some steel rings $130 but helices and learn get what you're for. Thank guys for advice towered correct
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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by brett1868 » 09 Feb 2017, 10:57 pm

Garth wrote:Well it was scope rings can't believe it every think seemed tight .took to Gunsmiths . Was round scope base screws going into square grooves on mounts ..could see where it was scraping from30.06 recoil lesson cheap crap rings got some steel rings $130 but helices and learn get what you're for. Thank guys for advice towered correct


Sweet....always good to solve a mystery, I know personally how frustrating these problems can get. Good luck and report back on how it groups now :)
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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by WaltzingMatilda » 09 Feb 2017, 11:41 pm

Definitely sounds mechanical to me and I'd be looking at the crown, bedding and locking lugs. BUT there is another possibility - and please don't be offended. The 30-06 offers a recoil which is close to threshold. I'm guessing that you have noticed this by the light loads (47 gn of 2208 is fairly low) and the muzzle break has been added for a reason. This can lead to a nasty flinch and loss of your group.

I've trained a lot of shooters over the years and it's not uncommon for folk to develop a flinch without knowing it (especially with service rifles). So go back to basics - good body position, cheek on the stock, breathing and determine your natural point of aim. Then go through a dry firing exercise and see if you are pulling off-centre. If this is happening then you will need to work at the dry firing and perhaps get some coaching.

Give it a go.

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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by Garth » 12 Feb 2017, 10:34 pm

Well back to the board rifle still doing at 50 yard still same 100 nothing .so not scope not primers not the load not flinching .back to gun Smith feel like throwing it into a furnace ha ha dam thing
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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by Gwion » 13 Feb 2017, 7:35 am

Put some black texta on the back of your locking lugs. Use a fired case in the chamber and close/open the bolt a few times. Take bolt out and check to see how much ink has worn off. Ideally both surfaces of the lugs should be evenly and almost completely worn off. If one or the other has no wear, or significantly less wear, then it can effect accuracy. It's a simple test to diagnose an issue here. It is unlikely that this will effect your accuracy as much as you say but it could be contributing, as mentioned above.

Next. Remove barrelled action from stock and look for obvious shiny patches or marks on the action, stock bedding and barrel channel. If nothing is obvious, get that texta out again and paint the action where it meets the bedding (don't worry, metho or turps will clean it). Put the rifle back together and fire off a dozen rounds or so. Pull it apart again and look for uneven wear and signs of pressure points (small patches completely worn off; the black stuff will now be on the coresponding section of stock). Signs of uneven wear here indicate bedding issues which will have a significant effect on accuracy. You can bed it yourself or get someone experienced to do it for you.

Finally, remove any brakes, muzzle caps or what have you. Clean the barrel/bore and any powder residue at the crown. Shoot 10 or 20 rounds then examine the barrel crown. Powder residue should be making a nice, even star burst pattern on the crown with the lands defining the gaps between the bursts. If these bursts and gaps are irregular or ill defined it is an indication of crown issues.

A competent smith will be able to sort out all these issues. The lugs can be lapped even or cut on a lathe but if cut on a lath then the barrel should be removed and the bearing surfaces in the action cut to match. If all this is going on you may as well get the bolt face cut true to these as well.

A good crown cut should be a simple job for any smith worthy of business.

Bedding takes time to do properly and so a good job will not be cheap. There are some good tutorials available and products online to do it yourself if you have the time and aptitude to pay attention to detail.

There are also basic trouble shooting things to sort out with technique before you go looking for problems with the rifle. Be sure you are not the source of concern by carefully addressing issues like checking that your rests aren't interferring with sling mounts under recoil; if using a bi-pod, is it properly secured and are you loading it properly/evenly, shot to shot; is the load you are using remotely suited to your rifle; is your eye relief and cheek weld even, aligned and consistent.....

The list goes on. Systematically work through all these issues one at a time and look for improvements and if the rifle is still not shooting straight, sell it and take up knitting.

Edited multiple times because my phone and auto correct are a pain in the arse!
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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 13 Feb 2017, 8:06 am

Garth wrote:Well back to the board rifle still doing at 50 yard still same 100 nothing .so not scope not primers not the load not flinching .back to gun Smith feel like throwing it into a furnace ha ha dam thing


Garth, stop throwing money at this smith.

-It was OK

-went to smith

-Was not OK

If I have got that part correct so far....

-Smith worked on pointy end

yes?

Then check to see Mr Smith DID NOT F$ck up your rifle.

Take a pic of the crown (feel like I've already suggested that)
Have a look down the tube...... I was after all attached to a heavy rotating machine... get my drift?? :problem:

Perhaps it could still be a fitment thing, action to stock....

good luck
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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by Gwion » 13 Feb 2017, 8:44 am

I was trying not to put it so bluntly as Gen, but yes, you might be best served to look for a new "smith". However, I believe you mentioned that the gun never shot so well in the first place. As Brett first indicated, crown is most likely issue but there are obviously pre-existing issues. The change in harmonics after the work may just be amplifying these issues (hence the huge difference in POI with brake on/off). It could also be amplified by poorly suited load.
Testing for mechanical faults as described above will at least help identify where issues lie. Post pics of test results if it helps.

That 8" difference in POI with bake on/off seems excessive. What is the barrel profile and what make/model of rifle?
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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by Gwion » 13 Feb 2017, 8:46 am

Ps. Not to be rude but have you actually eliminated yourself as being the major issue by asking a proven, accurate shooter to try a few groups for you?
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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by Garth » 13 Feb 2017, 11:17 am

Had half a dozen people shoot it all target shooter like me still does same .no one can work it out Smith's cost me nothing so far .some guys had similar prob barrel whip got new varmint barrel prob went away .the gun is a mossburgs patriot 30.06 I have been trying to Elli men at each prob.rings scope loads primers .barrel doesn't touch stock all good no flinching .action seams fine all screw are fine got me
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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by Gwion » 13 Feb 2017, 12:47 pm

From a quick search of the Mossberg site, this rifle is factory tested (in 308) to be a 2MOA gun at best.

What are you actually getting and what are you expecting from this rifle?
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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by Garth » 13 Feb 2017, 6:27 pm

Am expecting to be able to shoot 100 yes and actually hit the target close would be nice but won't even do that not much to ask of a rifle if I new how to send pics you would see why
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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 13 Feb 2017, 6:35 pm

Gwion wrote:From a quick search of the Mossberg site, this rifle is factory tested (in 308) to be a 2MOA gun at best.

What are you actually getting and what are you expecting from this rifle?


At worse? surely....
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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by Garth » 13 Feb 2017, 6:36 pm

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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by Garth » 13 Feb 2017, 6:49 pm

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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by Garth » 13 Feb 2017, 6:51 pm

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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by Garth » 13 Feb 2017, 6:55 pm

That's how bad it is hit I spot then goes any were that's 50 yards see what I mean .same with brake off it's stuffed
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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by Oldbloke » 13 Feb 2017, 8:37 pm

That must be an 8" to 10" group at 50 yards. Crap. What did it do prior to the crowning?

I notice there is a lot of copper fouling, that will not be helping. A good scrub with sweets 7.62 will fix that. Pics are not great but crown looks OK.
You said you fixed the scope rings, have you checked the bedding for obvious issues?
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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by Garth » 13 Feb 2017, 8:58 pm

It was a let better than that crap yep Smith pulled it a part every thing OK can't even sell it would be dishonest
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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 14 Feb 2017, 8:23 am

Hard to tell, not focused but the colour might be light reflecting..
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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by brett1868 » 14 Feb 2017, 8:23 am

Crown looks to be a recessed target type and properly chamfered but difficult to be %100 certain without a clearer picture. Looks as though everything has been put through the process of elimination yet problem remains so I'm not sure what to try next. I would give the barrel a proper scrubbing with a good quality copper remover and try some 3 shot groups at 25m with factory ammo and post a pic, lets eliminate the reloads.
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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by Gwion » 14 Feb 2017, 10:17 am

Pic is a bit glary but the crown looks uneven if you look closely at the lands at the crown.

Genisis; best or worst? :unknown: All i know is the site lists it tested to just under or just over 2MOA depending on which ammo used. 3-4 ammo types tested (from memory).
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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by Gamerancher » 14 Feb 2017, 10:30 am

My money is on the barrel harmonics have been totally f#cked up by the machining and muzzle brake.
Why did you feel the need to get it in the first place? :unknown:
Back to the drawing board buddy. Give that barrel a good clean, get all of that copper out, and start again.
You'll have to try developing a load that works with the new set-up.
Not having a go at you, just looking from a different angle. Good luck. :thumbsup: :drinks:
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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by Garth » 14 Feb 2017, 3:01 pm

Hey cheers for all the help really been good not much left to try .will give her a good clean try factory ammo you never give up lucky I have a sense kg humour ha ha but this gun has stumped my
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Re: Will diff primers effect accuracy

Post by Garth » 15 Feb 2017, 3:05 pm

Works great the gun from the factory I got was not sitting properly .here was a lump of glue sitting in the recoil lug housing plus the screws that hold the action .didn't go all the way in now it pulls the action down so it all sits properly .dodgy workman ship from factory plus we're burs in the crown .any way never buy one again Mr mossburgs
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