Help: loading 44MAG for lever action

[Gamerancher]

On another note, for you fella's in Victoria, the Nationals for lever-gun silhouette are on at Little River, May 3-6, 2018.
So, plenty of notice there for ya. Get a load working and get to practicing your off-hand shooting.
I can also bring a couple of loaner guns if anyone is keen to have a go and doesn't own one.
I expect to see a bunch of you there, no excuses.

[bladeracer]

On another note, for you fella's in Victoria, the Nationals for lever-gun silhouette are on at Little River, May 3-6, 2018.
So, plenty of notice there for ya. Get a load working and get to practicing your off-hand shooting.
I can also bring a couple of loaner guns if anyone is keen to have a go and doesn't own one.
I expect to see a bunch of you there, no excuses.

Can you give me a bit of a run down on what this involves? Ranges? Can we print targets for practicing? Is there a rule of thumb on how much terminal energy is required to drop each target?

[bladeracer]

Have you slugged the bore on your rifle? You absolutely have to have the sizes right when using cast projectiles.

Yes, the bore is .430" on a .45" ball pushed through the bore. But I have fired bullets up to .434" so far.

[bladeracer]

Fella's , I don't own a Marlin apart from my 39a, but my brother in law is a Marlin "nut" and I'm pretty sure he found slower loads to be better in his micro-groove barrels with cast bullets. Also .001 - .002" over bore diameter is what he has found to work best. A load of 7g of Trailboss works well in my Win '94, alternatively, 6.5 gr of AS-30. Both loads use 240gr cast bullets.

I managed to test the hard bullets finally and there is some improvement. They went into about seven-inches at 50m doing 1050fps, and very consistently (velocity deviation in single digits) so I think it's finally stopped gas-cutting.
Then I shot ten Nolser 240gn JHP's at 1240fps. The first four went the usual eighteen-inches-odd as they blew out the leading, then settled into about three-inches. So I'm going to load some more of the hard-cast bullets and try them again with an unleaded bore. I'll also try sizing them down to .431" to see if the hard lead is more important than the size.

The Noslers shed all their jackets neatly passing through the second layer of rubber and only the points above the cannelure deformed. But the hard-cast lead had no deformation whatever, I could shoot them again I reckon. They'd be alright for silhouette but not for hunting.
But having to cast them so hard really reduces the value of shooting them instead of jacketed bullets. I didn't do much looking around but I paid 48c each for 700 Nosler and Hornady jacketed bullets. These cost me 28c each to cast due to the solder content. I can recycle them for free shooting here at home so it's a one-off cost, but it still annoys me

[bigpete]

Try shooting them unsized juststarting

[Gamerancher]

On another note, for you fella's in Victoria, the Nationals for lever-gun silhouette are on at Little River, May 3-6, 2018.
So, plenty of notice there for ya. Get a load working and get to practicing your off-hand shooting.
I can also bring a couple of loaner guns if anyone is keen to have a go and doesn't own one.
I expect to see a bunch of you there, no excuses.

Can you give me a bit of a run down on what this involves? Ranges? Can we print targets for practicing? Is there a rule of thumb on how much terminal energy is required to drop each target?

I hate double quoting but my reply won't make sense otherwise.
Here's a link to the rule book. You'll find scale templates for the targets at the end.
https://ssaa.org.au/assets/disciplines/ ... e-book.pdf

[bladeracer]

Here's a link to the rule book. You'll find scale templates for the targets at the end.
https://ssaa.org.au/assets/disciplines/ ... e-book.pdf

Thanks Gamerancher
Any comment on the required energy to knock over the steels at these ranges?
Or do you know of a forum that might be able to give me some guidance on that?
Basically, is the .44 Magnum a handicap, should I grab a .45-70?

[in2anity]

Here's a link to the rule book. You'll find scale templates for the targets at the end.
https://ssaa.org.au/assets/disciplines/ ... e-book.pdf

Thanks Gamerancher
Any comment on the required energy to knock over the steels at these ranges?
Or do you know of a forum that might be able to give me some guidance on that?
Basically, is the .44 Magnum a handicap, should I grab a .45-70?

Blade for CLAS the 44 mag will easily knock the rams over - they’re only at 200m. Even a 30-30 @ 1600fps knocks them over.

[bladeracer]

Blade for CLAS the 44 mag will easily knock the rams over - they’re only at 200m. Even a 30-30 @ 1600fps knocks them over.

Cool, thanks for that, I shall set to practicing

[in2anity]

My 2c on the subject; the key is finding that accurate load with just enough power to consistently knock down the rams - recoil takes its toll after a match or two (and really effects your consistency) so if possible you wanna keep it to the minimum required.

[bladeracer]

My 2c on the subject; the key is finding that accurate load with just enough power to consistently knock down the rams - recoil takes its toll after a match or two (and really effects your consistency) so if possible you wanna keep it to the minimum required.

Yep, that's why I'd like to load to what I need to knock them over at 200m, without going much heavier than that.
The 240gn JHP at 1250fps is pretty comfortable to shoot for my damaged shoulder, but it's only making about 450ft/lb at 200m.

[in2anity]

My 2c on the subject; the key is finding that accurate load with just enough power to consistently knock down the rams - recoil takes its toll after a match or two (and really effects your consistency) so if possible you wanna keep it to the minimum required.

Yep, that's why I'd like to load to what I need to knock them over at 200m, without going much heavier than that.
The 240gn JHP at 1250fps is pretty comfortable to shoot for my damaged shoulder, but it's only making about 450ft/lb at 200m.

I reckon that'll come close - might ring a few, but if you hit em high I think it'll work. If it doesn't, you won't need much more oomph - FWIW I've extrapolated 500ft/lb at 200m (from the classic 17gn 2207 30/30 load). One way to find out

[Gamerancher]

Lucky they don't enforce plagiarism laws on this site ol' mate.

[in2anity]

Lucky they don't enforce plagiarism laws on this site ol' mate.

You weren’t around, so I figured I’d step up to the plate ol' mate, just trying to help

[bladeracer]

Yep, that's why I'd like to load to what I need to knock them over at 200m, without going much heavier than that. The 240gn JHP at 1250fps is pretty comfortable to shoot for my damaged shoulder, but it's only making about 450ft/lb at 200m.

I reckon that'll come close - might ring a few, but if you hit em high I think it'll work. If it doesn't, you won't need much more oomph - FWIW I've extrapolated 500ft/lb at 200m (from the classic 17gn 2207 30/30 load). One way to find out [/quote]

Thanks again
It may well be time to buy myself some more steel silhouettes.
I need to do some more work on the loads to improve accuracy I think.
I was thinking this comp would be irons only but it seems to allow scopes, is that correct?
I bought a peep sight for the Norinco .22 and am planning to find one for the Marlin as well, but I have it scoped currently for load development.

[in2anity]

Thanks again
It may well be time to buy myself some more steel silhouettes.
I need to do some more work on the loads to improve accuracy I think.
I was thinking this comp would be irons only but it seems to allow scopes, is that correct?
I bought a peep sight for the Norinco .22 and am planning to find one for the Marlin as well, but I have it scoped currently for load development.

I was referring to CLAS (cowboy lever action silhouette) in which case scopes are not permitted; you can use an open, receiver (peep) or tang rear and a post or bead front sight (i.e no front tunnels allowed). I presume that's the comp you want to participate in?

"Rifle Metallic Silhouette" aka "Centrefire Silhouette Rifle" or "Centrefire Hunting Rifle" more colloquially known just as "high power..." permits scopes; but that's normally shot with bolt guns (rams are at 500m) where accuracy becomes more important.

[bladeracer]

I was referring to CLAS (cowboy lever action silhouette) in which case scopes are not permitted; you can use a open, receiver (peep) or tang rear and a post or bead front sight (i.e no front tunnels allowed). I presume that's the comp you want to participate in?

High power rifle permits scopes; but that's normally shot with bolt guns (rams are at 500m) where accuracy becomes more important.

That must be what I saw that made me think no scopes, missed it went I went looking though.
I like irons so I'll put in plenty of practice.
Far too early to say if I can make the comp, but at least I know it's coming

[in2anity]

That must be what I saw that made me think no scopes, missed it went I went looking though.
I like irons so I'll put in plenty of practice.
Far too early to say if I can make the comp, but at least I know it's coming

You're brave going irons - i can't shoot for s**t with a slot, give me a peep any day!

[bladeracer]

You're brave going irons - i can't shoot for s**t with dovetails, give me a peep any day!

Peeps are also iron sights
I struggle with irons these days as well, except at close ranges.
I didn't like the buckhorn thingie initially, but as long as I concentrate on the sight picture it is surprisingly accurate.
I picked up a Williams receiver peep sight that fits the standard dovetail on the JW21. I expect I'll need to modify the front sight to suit it but haven't had a chance to play with it yet. I haven't decided whether to get a pic rail peep sight for the Marlin or go with a Marlin-specific unit that replaces the rail. When I finish developing some loads and remove the scope then I'll decide on that.

[in2anity]

You're brave going irons - i can't shoot for s**t with dovetails, give me a peep any day!

Peeps are also iron sights
I struggle with irons these days as well, except at close ranges.
I didn't like the buckhorn thingie initially, but as long as I concentrate on the sight picture it is surprisingly accurate.
I picked up a Williams receiver peep sight that fits the standard dovetail on the JW21. I expect I'll need to modify the front sight to suit it but haven't had a chance to play with it yet. I haven't decided whether to get a pic rail peep sight for the Marlin or go with a Marlin-specific unit that replaces the rail. When I finish developing some loads and remove the scope then I'll decide on that.

I have the Williams FP-336 on my Marlin with a 0.05" aperture + the "long elevation screw" + "target knob" + elevation "locking knob" which gets me well past 200m mark on the mild 17gr load.

336W_sights.jpg (699.86 KiB) Viewed 6645 times

I'd order the FP-336-TK though in retrospect - it has all of those bits already (besides the aperture).

[bladeracer]

I have the Williams FP-336 on my Marlin with a 0.05" aperture + the "long elevation screw" + "target knob" + elevation "locking knob" which gets me well past 200m mark on the mild 17gr load.

336W_sights.jpg

I'd order the FP-336-TK though in retrospect - it has all of those bits already (besides the aperture).

I did look at those but I don't like having all those knobs sticking out to get caught on things.
Do you know if it can be swapped in and out without losing zero?

[in2anity]

I have the Williams FP-336 on my Marlin with a 0.05" aperture + the "long elevation screw" + "target knob" + elevation "locking knob" which gets me well past 200m mark on the mild 17gr load.

336W_sights.jpg

I'd order the FP-336-TK though in retrospect - it has all of those bits already (besides the aperture).

I did look at those but I don't like having all those knobs sticking out to get caught on things.
Do you know if it can be swapped in and out without losing zero?

Sorry never really payed too much attention tbh - just presumed the rezero was necessary. BTW you don't really need the locking knob on the side - you actually have ample. time to make scope adjustments during a comp because you can do it at the end of each second bank - and then you have another 15 secs to "ready", so using a little flat-head screwdriver would be fine.

[bladeracer]

Do you know if it can be swapped in and out without losing zero?

Sorry never really payed too much attention tbh - just presumed the rezero was necessary.

No worries
For $120 it might be worth having a play with even if I don't leave it on the rifle permanently.
I assume it works with the standard front sight okay?

[in2anity]

Do you know if it can be swapped in and out without losing zero?

Sorry never really payed too much attention tbh - just presumed the rezero was necessary.

No worries
For $120 it might be worth having a play with even if I don't leave it on the rifle permanently.
I assume it works with the standard front sight okay?

Yeah it does, but I have a lyman front sight with interchangable inserts - the blade is a little finer than the factory version. I swap in the tunnel for 3-p. But yeah there are plenty that just keep the original front sight for MS.

[in2anity]

Didnt the rules say something about no front tunnel sights though. The rules are pretty hard to read with the four different disciplens all in together. It would be easier if they had complete different sections even if they had to repeat rules that were the same.

Thanks again
It may well be time to buy myself some more steel silhouettes.
I need to do some more work on the loads to improve accuracy I think.
I was thinking this comp would be irons only but it seems to allow scopes, is that correct?
I bought a peep sight for the Norinco .22 and am planning to find one for the Marlin as well, but I have it scoped currently for load development.

I was referring to CLAS (cowboy lever action silhouette) in which case scopes are not permitted; you can use an open, receiver (peep) or tang rear and a post or bead front sight (i.e no front tunnels allowed). I presume that's the comp you want to participate in?

"Rifle Metallic Silhouette" aka "Centrefire Silhouette Rifle" or "Centrefire Hunting Rifle" more colloquially known just as "high power..." permits scopes; but that's normally shot with bolt guns (rams are at 500m) where accuracy becomes more important.

[bladeracer]

Didnt the rules say something about no front tunnel sights though. The rules are pretty hard to read with the four different disciplens all in together. It would be easier if they had complete different sections even if they had to repeat rules that were the same.

Yep, it's not the easiest tome to wade through

Is it possible to enter several disciplines on the same day?
Like I could do the lever action CLAS and maybe another class with the .303?

[in2anity]

Is it possible to enter several disciplines on the same day?
Like I could do the lever action CLAS and maybe another class with the .303?

Absolutely - so long as your rifle complies with the rulebook. And this is especially where recoil takes its toll - if you participate in 2,3 even 4 matches in a day, you get pretty tired, and the heavier the recoil, the faster you fatigue. This is why people are increasingly choosing 7mm-08 and 6.5 creedmore over 308 (for high power).

In regard to your 303 (which i presume is service) - there's not really a category for service rifles; it'd have to fall under high power I guess. And unless you have it scoped (and is exceptionally accurate), you'd be putting yourself at somewhat of a disadvantage I feel.

Blade have you ever tried "Combined Services" comp?

[bladeracer]

Is it possible to enter several disciplines on the same day?
Like I could do the lever action CLAS and maybe another class with the .303?

Absolutely - so long as your rifle complies with the rulebook. And this is especially where recoil takes its toll - if you participate in 2,3 even 4 matches in a day, you get pretty tired, and the heavier the recoil, the faster you fatigue. This is why people are increasingly choosing 7mm-08 and 6.5 creedmore over 308 (for high power).

In regard to your 303 (which i presume is service) - there's not really a category for service rifles; it'd have to fall under high power I guess. And unless you have it scoped (and is exceptionally accurate), you'd be putting yourself at somewhat of a disadvantage I feel.

Blade have you ever tried "Combined Services" comp?

I could bring the 7mm-08 (I guess the MDT chassis is okay?), I just thought one of the milsurps might be more fun is all
Other than IPSC I've never done any competition shooting, except as a kid I was on the small-bore team with ARMY cadets, and air rifles with PCYC before that.
I don't know of anywhere within a couple hours other than F-Class at Rosedale and a pistol club in Traralgon that does "rapid fire" type shooting. There is a shotgun club nearby (Flynn Creek I think?) apparently that does Field Comp but I haven't caught up with them yet. My shoulder really isn't up to 12-gauge yet.

[groundhog]

Bladeracer, there is Service rifle Silhouette, it is outlined in the rule book and is shot with service rifles in exactly the same way as the Centerfire rifle match. I think the national record sits at about 19 for this because as you can imagine shooting this with open sights is interesting to say the least. This match has been dropped from the national rotation meaning that it will no longer have a national title but it is still shot in Queensland and from memory I think that they are also now allowing the use of after market sights - Parker Hales and such. If you are interested let me know and I will put you in contact with some people.

As for the MDT chassis it should be OK however the upper weight limit for "Heavy Gun" is 4.6kg which isn't massively heavy so it may not pass scrutineering.

[groundhog]

Sorry Bladeracer I just saw that you are in Vic. Little River range has silhouette competitions and is currently gearing up to host the CLAS nationals in May. If you are interested in more info the offer of putting you in touch with the right person still stands.