Help: loading 44MAG for lever action

[in2anity]

Didnt the rules say something about no front tunnel sights though. The rules are pretty hard to read with the four different disciplens all in together. It would be easier if they had complete different sections even if they had to repeat rules that were the same.

Thanks again
It may well be time to buy myself some more steel silhouettes.
I need to do some more work on the loads to improve accuracy I think.
I was thinking this comp would be irons only but it seems to allow scopes, is that correct?
I bought a peep sight for the Norinco .22 and am planning to find one for the Marlin as well, but I have it scoped currently for load development.

I was referring to CLAS (cowboy lever action silhouette) in which case scopes are not permitted; you can use an open, receiver (peep) or tang rear and a post or bead front sight (i.e no front tunnels allowed). I presume that's the comp you want to participate in?

"Rifle Metallic Silhouette" aka "Centrefire Silhouette Rifle" or "Centrefire Hunting Rifle" more colloquially known just as "high power..." permits scopes; but that's normally shot with bolt guns (rams are at 500m) where accuracy becomes more important.

[bladeracer]

Didnt the rules say something about no front tunnel sights though. The rules are pretty hard to read with the four different disciplens all in together. It would be easier if they had complete different sections even if they had to repeat rules that were the same.

Yep, it's not the easiest tome to wade through

Is it possible to enter several disciplines on the same day?
Like I could do the lever action CLAS and maybe another class with the .303?

[in2anity]

Is it possible to enter several disciplines on the same day?
Like I could do the lever action CLAS and maybe another class with the .303?

Absolutely - so long as your rifle complies with the rulebook. And this is especially where recoil takes its toll - if you participate in 2,3 even 4 matches in a day, you get pretty tired, and the heavier the recoil, the faster you fatigue. This is why people are increasingly choosing 7mm-08 and 6.5 creedmore over 308 (for high power).

In regard to your 303 (which i presume is service) - there's not really a category for service rifles; it'd have to fall under high power I guess. And unless you have it scoped (and is exceptionally accurate), you'd be putting yourself at somewhat of a disadvantage I feel.

Blade have you ever tried "Combined Services" comp?

[bladeracer]

Is it possible to enter several disciplines on the same day?
Like I could do the lever action CLAS and maybe another class with the .303?

Absolutely - so long as your rifle complies with the rulebook. And this is especially where recoil takes its toll - if you participate in 2,3 even 4 matches in a day, you get pretty tired, and the heavier the recoil, the faster you fatigue. This is why people are increasingly choosing 7mm-08 and 6.5 creedmore over 308 (for high power).

In regard to your 303 (which i presume is service) - there's not really a category for service rifles; it'd have to fall under high power I guess. And unless you have it scoped (and is exceptionally accurate), you'd be putting yourself at somewhat of a disadvantage I feel.

Blade have you ever tried "Combined Services" comp?

I could bring the 7mm-08 (I guess the MDT chassis is okay?), I just thought one of the milsurps might be more fun is all
Other than IPSC I've never done any competition shooting, except as a kid I was on the small-bore team with ARMY cadets, and air rifles with PCYC before that.
I don't know of anywhere within a couple hours other than F-Class at Rosedale and a pistol club in Traralgon that does "rapid fire" type shooting. There is a shotgun club nearby (Flynn Creek I think?) apparently that does Field Comp but I haven't caught up with them yet. My shoulder really isn't up to 12-gauge yet.

[groundhog]

Bladeracer, there is Service rifle Silhouette, it is outlined in the rule book and is shot with service rifles in exactly the same way as the Centerfire rifle match. I think the national record sits at about 19 for this because as you can imagine shooting this with open sights is interesting to say the least. This match has been dropped from the national rotation meaning that it will no longer have a national title but it is still shot in Queensland and from memory I think that they are also now allowing the use of after market sights - Parker Hales and such. If you are interested let me know and I will put you in contact with some people.

As for the MDT chassis it should be OK however the upper weight limit for "Heavy Gun" is 4.6kg which isn't massively heavy so it may not pass scrutineering.

[groundhog]

Sorry Bladeracer I just saw that you are in Vic. Little River range has silhouette competitions and is currently gearing up to host the CLAS nationals in May. If you are interested in more info the offer of putting you in touch with the right person still stands.

[in2anity]

Huh did not know about service rifle silhouette groundhog! Jeepers I take they're at high power distances, wow would that be tough with irons.

[groundhog]

Yeah! Single figure scores even zeros are not uncommon in service rifle, it got dropped in favour of the far more enjoyable Black powder match - still with open sights but shot prone from cross sticks.

[in2anity]

Yeah! Single figure scores even zeros are not uncommon in service rifle, it got dropped in favour of the far more enjoyable Black powder match - still with open sights but shot prone from cross sticks.

Explains why I've never seen a service match

[groundhog]

Fair enough, Where do you shoot?

[in2anity]

Fair enough, Where do you shoot?

Mainly Silverdale (NSW) rimfire silhouette, but I've also been to Bowral (+backyard practice at a mates farm); I'm aiming to do a lot more centerfire in the future as I have developed rifles/loads for high power hunting and CLAS now. How about yourself?

[Gamerancher]

The service rifle was dropped at Nationals because more of us wanted to shoot our BPCR's than service. When you've got nearly $4000 invested in a rifle, you want to shoot it more than a crappy old $400 SMLE. ( That'll get some angry comments )
We were all keen to shoot service while it was shot "as well as" BPCR, but they started shooting it "instead of" and that was
why it was dropped. There was simply more interest in the BPCR.
The rules dictate service rifles are to be shot "as issued", so no changing of sights is permitted. If some clubs are allowing that, it would be at a club level only.

We are now way, way off topic.

Back to the original thread, there are a few blokes/blokettes that shoot the .44mag for both pistol caliber and rifle. They usually load up fairly hot loads to get the 200m rams. 240 grainers with 23.5 grains of 2205 tends to knock 'em over.
The pistol caliber targets are 1/2 size and 1/2 distance, reduced loads, i.e. something like 7gr of trailboss or 6.5gr of AS-30 are more than adequate.

[in2anity]

We are now way, way off topic.

Back to the original thread, there are a few blokes/blokettes that shoot the .44mag for both pistol caliber and rifle. They usually load up fairly hot loads to get the 200m rams. 240 grainers with 23.5 grains of 2205 tends to knock 'em over.

The original thread has nothing to do with metallic silhouette requirements just sayin but yeah agreed good to swing it back to 44mag loads discussion

[bladeracer]

Back to the original thread, there are a few blokes/blokettes that shoot the .44mag for both pistol caliber and rifle. They usually load up fairly hot loads to get the 200m rams. 240 grainers with 23.5 grains of 2205 tends to knock 'em over.
The pistol caliber targets are 1/2 size and 1/2 distance, reduced loads, i.e. something like 7gr of trailboss or 6.5gr of AS-30 are more than adequate.

Okay, looking at ADI data 23.5gn of AR2205 makes roughly the same 1750fps that I got from the factory Federal AE 240gn loads. That's making about 630ft/lbs at 200m, 40% more punch than my current 240gn load.

[Gamerancher]

The full size rams @ 200m are "soft-set". The correct setting is just forward of topple point.
In the 500m competitions they are "hard-set" and require at least 1000ft/lb of energy to knock down reliably. To put that into context, a .243win cannot be relied upon to knock them down. As you can imagine, when set just forward of topple point they require a lot less.
Your current load would be more than adequate for the pistol caliber class and providing you have the elevation adjustment would more than likely be okay for the chickens, pigs and turkeys in the rifle class. You may just have to load 'em up for rams.
The contact details for the bloke running the CLAS Nationals at Little River next year are in the ad which can be found in the competitions section of the SSAA journal. Get in touch with Mark and see if there are any shoots coming up so that you may "try before you buy" so to speak.
If you think "plinking" is fun with lever-guns, have a crack at silhouette. The visual spectacle of falling / flying targets and the resounding clang in your ears can be very addictive.
We have been known to enjoy ourselves once the guns are put away also.

[bladeracer]

The full size rams @ 200m are "soft-set". The correct setting is just forward of topple point.
In the 500m competitions they are "hard-set" and require at least 1000ft/lb of energy to knock down reliably. To put that into context, a .243win cannot be relied upon to knock them down. As you can imagine, when set just forward of topple point they require a lot less.
Your current load would be more than adequate for the pistol caliber class and providing you have the elevation adjustment would more than likely be okay for the chickens, pigs and turkeys in the rifle class. You may just have to load 'em up for rams.
The contact details for the bloke running the CLAS Nationals at Little River next year are in the ad which can be found in the competitions section of the SSAA journal. Get in touch with Mark and see if there are any shoots coming up so that you may "try before you buy" so to speak.
If you think "plinking" is fun with lever-guns, have a crack at silhouette. The visual spectacle of falling / flying targets and the resounding clang in your ears can be very addictive.
We have been known to enjoy ourselves once the guns are put away also.

Okay, I can't see any possibility of making 1000ft/lb out of the .44 Magnum at 200m. I'd need to punch a 300gn at 1950fps to make that. Hornady does factory .243 100gn BTSP ammo that makes 1350ft/lbs at 200m. And that does not knock them over reliably? They do a .30-30 load 160gn that makes about 1250ft/lbs at 200m - would that be reliable?
Rather than try to load to a number I think I'm going to have get one of the biggest targets and practice on it myself to see where the minimum energy falls.

[Gamerancher]

You don't need 1000ft/lb @ 200m. I was referring to what is needed @ 500m. The targets are set differently, please re-read my post.
200m is the distance for lever guns, 500m is for scoped high power, BPCR and service rifle.
"Soft-setting" makes them a lot easier to knock over, that is why even reduced loads in .30-30's will knock them over. I've knocked them down @ 200m with reduced .44mag loads. If you can get 240gr of lead to hit , it will work. The trick with the .44 is to get a load that gets out there with the elevation available with your sights.
I have been using .38-55's for a while now shooting reduced loads behind a 250gr cast bullet that is 100% effective on rams @ 200m.
If you have the means to make a full size ram target, including the correct size feet, it can be very useful for working out loads that work.

[bladeracer]

You don't need 1000ft/lb @ 200m. I was referring to what is needed @ 500m. The targets are set differently, please re-read my post.
200m is the distance for lever guns, 500m is for scoped high power, BPCR and service rifle.
"Soft-setting" makes them a lot easier to knock over, that is why even reduced loads in .30-30's will knock them over. I've knocked them down @ 200m with reduced .44mag loads. If you can get 240gr of lead to hit , it will work. The trick with the .44 is to get a load that gets out there with the elevation available with your sights.
I have been using .38-55's for a while now shooting reduced loads behind a 250gr cast bullet that is 100% effective on rams @ 200m.
If you have the means to make a full size ram target, including the correct size feet, it can be very useful for working out loads that work.

My mistake, been a busy day
I'll hunt up some 3/8" steel plate 27" by 32" to cut out a ram with 4" by 5" feet and then try to work up a load that just reliably knocks it down.

[Gamerancher]

No worries mate, we've all been there.

Yeah, I reckon you wont be disappointed. You can set him up as a swinger for practice but setting him up on a rail for load development takes all of the guess work out of it. Best of luck with it. The .44 is relatively popular with folks that shoot one gun for the two events.