Help with a new second hand rifle.

[goldiexxxx]

I would really appreciate some advice to correct an inaccurate secondhand rifle I just purchased.

So I was in the gun shop the other day and saw this ugly looking thing in the corner for $350 and thought to myself; self, that POS might just fill a role to get a younger family member more trigger time without the cost of a .308. So I bought a Yugo Zastava .223 which started life as a .222. From what I have learned on the interweb, these things are fairly accurate despite their flaws. It looks brand new to be honest but Yugoslavia has not been a nation since the early '90s so it proclaims its age stamped on the receiver.
The Zastava M85 was topped with a brand new Leupold VX1 3-9 and off to the range today. I had a couple packets of PPU 55gr chucked into the deal and I also had some PMC 55gr too along for a shot.
Well, so far, the accuracy has been horribly disappointing. Groups ranging from 1.5" to 4.6" @ 100m; seemingly worse as the day progressed.

I know I have a number of variables to eliminate here but would like some advice on the load I should be using. I mean here are the unknowns:
1. the scope is unproven although new
2. did I mount the scope correctly and screw it into the rings tight enough?
3. PPU and PMC ammo is probably questionable quality too
4. Zastava M85 .222s have a 1:14 twist. Will this stabilise a 55gr projectile coming out of a .223 round?

I can work on the things that you folks cant and will confirm the scope and rings. But here are the questions I need answering:

What load is going to suit this Frankenstein rifle?
Should is stabilise 55gr .223 rounds?
What hand-load would you recommend?
Should I be looking at the .222 section of the hand-loaders manual for the correct powder load?

Any and all advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Goldie

[AusTac]

Any rifle/firearm i add to my growing collection i take apart, being the age it is you never know whats going on underneath, id be checking out the bedding/wood condition, and ensure barrel isn't touching in the channel etc etc, then if your happy with that, a clean lube, then possible a scope swap and then see what happens, ppu certainly won't win any comps but it does group..sorta.

Love a rifle with a bit of history and character, good luck mate

[bigfellascott]

Try some ammo in the 50gn or even 40gn range but personally I would handload for it if you have the gear to do it - I use 20.5gn of AR2207 behind a 50gn pill in my 222 and get great results, 222's are easy to reload for as a rule and there are quite a few powder/projectile combos that work well in them.

I also run 2206H, 8208, 4198, BM2, BM1 and have found loads that shoot well using all those - just do some research and you will find a powder/projectile combo to suit I'm sure.

[goldiexxxx]

Thanks AusTac.
Yeah I did strip it down and give it a clean out, although it wasn't grubby, and was well lubed. I blew out a bit of crud in the floor plate latch that was stopping it from holding closed and adjusted the trigger a little lighter too. It doesn't have a wood stock, its all black plastic and the barrel is not floated either. I must admit, the blueing on this rifle is exceptional; a real deep dark finish, very nice.

Bigfellascott.
You have suggested what I was kind of thinking mate. I will be reloading for this rifle anyway and was thinking I may have to use 50gr or even lighter projectiles. I should add that it only has a 20" barrel, and so at 1:14 twist, that's not even 1.5 turns before she's airborne. About as much torque as you can put on a footy with the side of your boot!!

Anybody else with further advice or confirmed experience??

[wrenchman]

check and make sure the scope is not moveing also check you stock screws

[Gwion]

I wouldn't mind that barrel for my wildcat build. I'd be loading 40gn bullets with BM8202.
My Zasty benefited from a bit of a polish on the trigger parts. I also bedded the action and floated the barrel. It shoots 50gn bullets with 8208 at under 1/2inch at 100yds.

[tom604]

buy a couple of boxes of premium ammo,you know,the pricey kind get the bore checked out,you may have a damaged crown the scope should be fine,(new and just put on) look at the bedding and if its touching anywhere,(got worse as the day went on) barrel getting hot and touching more? it should be able to handle 50/55 grn bullets but a bit lighter wont hurt. i wouldn't hand load for it just yet until i made sure the bore is okay,if its shot out no amount of tweeking will get it to shoot

[Tripod]

I wouldn't mind that barrel for my wildcat build. I'd be loading 40gn bullets with BM8202.
My Zasty benefited from a bit of a polish on the trigger parts. I also bedded the action and floated the barrel. It shoots 50gn bullets with 8208 at under 1/2inch at 100yds.

What are ya building
I just picked up a Zasty that had the 222 barrel pulled and was fitted with a new barrel in 17rem and the rifle comes with the original unfired 222 barrel..
OP with the plastic stocks you need to be very very consistent with the way you hold it and the amount of pressure you exert on it if on the bench. Try putting a couple of shims under the action so that the barrel floats and see if that helps.

[Wm.Traynor]

Groups with more vertical dispersion than horizontal, can indicate a bedding problem. As tom604 says above, the barrel might be touching. If it floats, it could be action bedding or loose screws.
Wondering if your 223 ammo feeds from the magazine ok?

[goldiexxxx]

Wrenchman:
Yeah the stock was screwed down tight, but I'm not too sure about the rings. I was probably a little hesitant to screw down too tight onto a brand new scope. I have since tightened further and will have to see if it makes a difference next time.

Tom604:
Mate the barrel is probably touching all the way to the receiver! She's no supermodel this thing. See picture. Don't be fooled by the angle, its only a 20" barrel.

20170321_162655.jpg (590.48 KiB) Viewed 6190 times

If the scope is ok and it still shoots quality ammo poorly then I think a bedding might be in order. I didn't want this thing to be a project but hey, I don't think it will take too much to get it shooting reasonable.

[goldiexxxx]

Wm.Traynor:

It didn't feed well when I first picked it up. I took it back to the shop and the gunsmith fiddled with the mag spring a bit and it worked without problems when I picked it up. He also ground the bottom edge of the bolt face a little to give it a sharper edge to pick up the lip of the round. But it still seems to have a problem unless I use a technique of pushing up and forward on the bolt handle. I think the mini-mauser action is to blame as they have shortened the action a little too much. The rear receiver bridge is a bit short creating a little too much play (droop) in the bolt when fully rear. this creates the possibility of over-riding rounds when chambering. A simple technique adjustment fixes it, but that's not idea I suppose.

[Gwion]

I wouldn't mind that barrel for my wildcat build. I'd be loading 40gn bullets with BM8202.
My Zasty benefited from a bit of a polish on the trigger parts. I also bedded the action and floated the barrel. It shoots 50gn bullets with 8208 at under 1/2inch at 100yds.

What are ya building
I just picked up a Zasty that had the 222 barrel pulled and was fitted with a new barrel in 17rem and the rifle comes with the original unfired 222 barrel..
OP with the plastic stocks you need to be very very consistent with the way you hold it and the amount of pressure you exert on it if on the bench. Try putting a couple of shims under the action so that the barrel floats and see if that helps.

Not to hi-jack the OPs thread, i'll send you a PM.

[Gwion]

OP.
Definitely start by free floating that barrel. It is a pretty quick easy job.
Also look at the bedding for any shiny spots and give them a little scrape back as they may be indicating areas where the action is being affected under battery.
Then test it again with the same ammo as before and see if there is any improvement. If so, do a simple work up in the lower half of the velocity range with 40-45gn bullets in 0.3gn increments of powder. Shoot 2 x 3round groups of each load and see if you get anything that markedly improves on the factory stuff.

AS i said, my trigger was rather 'gritty' and rough, so i pulled it apart and gave it a little honing to smooth it up without changing any geometry. Made a big difference to shooting the rifle but i would do it if you aren't that way inclined because getting it back together isn't as easy as pulling it apart and it is easy to make a mistake with the honing and end up with an unsafe trigger.

The barrel channel and bedding is the first step.

[goldiexxxx]

Gwion:
I shimmed the receiver which has now floated the barrel. I already adjusted the trigger which I found a bit too light for my liking and have made it a bit firmer since. I really don't mind the two stage trigger feel on any rifle to be honest, at least I know then when the sear is about to break. Got to get to the range now to see if anything has improved.

[Gwion]

Worth a try. Good luck!

[goldiexxxx]

OK, so got a chance to try it out again this weekend.
So after floating the barrel, I wanted to shoot some of the same ammo to see if there was an improvement. I only had some of the PMC 55gr left and this at least grouped on target instead of flying all over the place, including off target. I also now had some Hornady 55gr SP in steel cases and a packet of Fiocchi 50gr ballistic tips. I shot 10 rounds of each with the following extreme spreads:
PMC 55gr - 3.1"
Hornady 55gr - 3"
Fiocchi 50gr - 3.2" (vertical string)

However, I did shoot a single 5 shot of the Fiocchi of 1.4" which was a little promising. So I'm thinking that even the 50gr are still only marginally stabilising and I will need to go to a 45 or 40gr projectile for reloading. I have loaded 50 rounds of Hornady 40gr V-max using ADI 2207 starting at 20gr and working up to 22gr in half grain intervals. I will try these out over Easter. I am also trying to get hold of the Hornady 45gr Hornets too before the weekend but I will need to shop around town.

Putting the specs into the online stabiliser calculators, it shows that only 45gr projectiles will fully stabilise in this rifle. Is that correct? Doesn't seem right when I read all the hoo hah about how great the 222 with a 14" twist is.

[Gwion]

At least you have some improvement. Have checked the crown?
I'll bet you still have a bedding problem so if you have the time and skill, I suggest you get some devcon and bed it properly, including pillars. Once it is bedded, torque it down.
Then start on load development.
No reason you can't get it shooting if you are willing to put in the time and effort.

[Wm.Traynor]

Sounds like a project.
Love a project

[Oldbloke]

Sounds like a lemon. Ill offer you $250.

[goldiexxxx]

No have not had it to a gunsmith yet, would like to shoot it a bit first so I get a feel for what its problem may be if anything. I will get plenty of chance this long weekend as I'm going bush and plan on setting up a little 100m range to do some more ammo testing.

I was not able to get the 45gr projectiles I was after but instead settled on a pack of Sierra 45gr .223s intended for the older Hornet chambering. How do you think these will shoot in a barrel which is intended for .224? Again, I've loaded 50 rounds with ten each starting at 20gr AR2207 and working up to 22gr in half grain increments.

[Wm.Traynor]

In theory, if those Sierras really are one thou too small, then you should get horrible groups. The proof will be in the shooting, so Good Luck

[goldiexxxx]

So I had some success with the lighter handloads. Here are the results @ 100m:

10 shot groups of 40gr Hornady V-max charged with ADI AR2207:
20gr - 2.17"
20.5gr - 2.66"
21gr - 4.63"
21.5gr - 1.5"
22gr - 2.13"

5 shot groups of 45gr Sierra Hornet (.223) charged with ADI AR2207:
20gr - 2.73"
20.5gr - 2.65" & 1.25"
21gr - 1.98" & 0.93"
21.5gr - 1.63" & 1.5"
22gr - 1.87" & 2.6"

The 45gr Sierra's results were a little more inconsistent than the Hornady V-max, but it still showed a lot of promise for when I can get my hands on some .224 45gr projectiles. I think it proved that the .223's did not suffer greatly from the 1 thou less in diameter.

So I think I have a successful load for 40gr V-max and I'm keen to get a bipod mounted and shoot those again from the prone position to confirm (I don't really shoot well at the bench). I have a feeling that I may have even greater success with 45gr when I can get them and will be running 50 rounds of them for a test also. I will look into getting the crown checked too.

[Gwion]

Getting there!

[goldiexxxx]

Alright, so I've got it sorted out now thanks to the help provided by you blokes.

1. Firstly, shimming the receiver and thus getting the barrel floated made a huge improvement. I know its still not the same as a proper bedding job, but its working well. The stock on this rifle not only supports the action, but the full length of the barrel. This obviously has huge affects as the barrel heats up.

2. The suggested load info provided also was invaluable and turned out to be spot on the money.

3. I mounted an aftermarket sling swivel stud and then attached my bipod to help make a better shooting platform. That, combined with the concrete shooting bench at the range, was far more stable than my blow-mould camping table used last weekend. (but at least that session gave me the info to progress forward with the handloading)

4. I dropped to three round groups rather than five as suggested also, which helped to remove doubt created by the heating of the light sporter barrel.

5. I sorted the brass so that it was consistent within each load type.

It was pretty quiet at the range today so I had plenty of opportunity to settle down and get some groups on paper. Here are the results with a bit of breeze:

40gr Hornady V-Max
Powder AR2207 - 21.5gr
Fiocchi Brass
COL - 2.245" (0.02 off the lands)
Average group size - 1"

45gr Sierra Hornet (.223)
Powder AR2207
PPU brass
COL - 2.148"
3 x 3 round groups average -20.5gr - 1.7"
3 x 3 round groups average - 21gr - 0.95"
3 x 3 round groups average - 21.5gr - 1.37"
1 x 3 round group (one of each) - 0.42" ODD!!

50gr Hornady SP
Powder AR2207
PMC Brass
COL - 2.240" (0.02" off the lands)
1 x 3 round group - 19.5gr - 2"
1 x 3 round group -20gr - 1.4"
2 x 3 round groups average - 20.5gr - 2"
3 x 3 round groups average - 21gr - 0.62" (one group was .39")
3 x 3 round groups average - 21.5gr - 0.86"

Just for comparison which helps to highlight the obvious
FIOCCHI 50gr V-Max Factory ammo
1 x 3 round group - 1.37"
Hornady 55gr SP (Steel cases) Factory ammo
1 x 3 round group - 3.7"

So there it is; My now permanent load for this Zastava M85 .223 (once a .222) is a 50gr bullet, charged with 21gr of AR2207, giving just over 1/2" group average with further tweaking if I get bored one day.

Thanks very much fellas, it has been a fun learning curve for me over the last few weeks and now I am armed with a whole lot more info to re-evaluate my .308 loads too.

Cheers, Goldie

[Oldbloke]

Sounds like a lemon. Ill offer you $250.

Are you sure? I can do $255.

[Gwion]

Woohoo!
Well done.

[Oldbloke]

Woohoo!
Well done.

+1

[duncan61]

Might have to float the .222