Heavy 45/70 Loads

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by bigpete » 26 Apr 2017, 1:45 pm

OK so I've just ordered myself a Rossi 45/70 to use as back up for a muzzleloader/longbow buff hunt I've got coming up. I've got access to a CBE 570gn bullet mold if I want it,and I was curious if anyone has any experience loading that weight bullets in a 45/70 ?
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Gamerancher » 26 Apr 2017, 2:53 pm

Depends on the rifle and the design of the bullet. Do you have a pic or maybe the dimensions of the bullet?
I shoot 560gr cast bullets out of a .45-90 CPA single shot, cartridge O.A.L would be too long for most lever guns. Even the 530gr bullet I used to shoot out of a .45-70 Sharps gave an O.A.L that wouldn't fit in a Marlin cowboy.

William "Buffalo Bill" Cody shot thousands of buffalo (bison) using the standard U.S army loading of 405gr lead bullet over 70gr of black powder in a Trapdoor Springfield rifle. Maybe look at replicating that load using smokeless. :unknown:

I do hope you are the "big" part of bigpete, that's a lot of lead you need to motivate, you'll certainly notice the recoil shooting that much bullet out of a light weight lever-gun. :D
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by TheDude » 26 Apr 2017, 2:58 pm

I load 535gr cast but only with 2F black powder. No experience with smokeless in the 45/70

Load books I've seen dont seem to got much higher than 500gr pills
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Tiger650 » 26 Apr 2017, 6:03 pm

I do hope you are the "big" part of bigpete, that's a lot of lead you need to motivate, you'll certainly notice the recoil shooting that much bullet out of a light weight lever-gun. :D

Certainly will give a nudge, I have a couple of Rossi '92 Win copies in .357", I believe they are basically the same rifle as the .45/70 but actually heavier because of the larger bore / same OD barrel !

If you are new to the rifle maybe google "The Rossi Rifleman" a band of very knowledgeable gentlemen for sure.
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Gamerancher » 27 Apr 2017, 10:39 am

Lyman cast bullet handbook recommends a maximum load for lever guns of 55gr of AR 2208 behind a 405gr cast bullet. Also recommends maximum C.O.L of 2.550".
That load is listed as producing @ 1772 f/s.
The Rossi Rio-grande in .45-70 is a Marlin 336 action clone. Lots of bad reviews re quality in the U.S. Advice would be to carefully examine it in shop before paying and taking possession.
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by GLS_1956 » 27 Apr 2017, 11:05 am

The 45/70 load for the infantry rifle was 500gr bullet over 70 gr of black powder. The load was reduced to a 405 gr bullet over 55 gr of black powder for the lighter cavalry carbine.
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Gamerancher » 27 Apr 2017, 12:19 pm

Sort of correct but not quite. The initial U.S army loading for the .45-70 was with a 405gr bullet, swaged from 1:12 tin/lead alloy over 70gr of blackpowder, the 500gr bullet was not introduced until 1881. You are correct about the lighter powder loading for the cavalry carbine.
A correction to my statement about W. Cody, he used a .50-70 Gov. :oops:
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by bigpete » 27 Apr 2017, 4:23 pm

Doesn't matter anyway. Just been informed Rossi no longer make them,therefore my local can't get me one in.
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Tiger650 » 27 Apr 2017, 8:39 pm

.454 Casull ?
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Mick280 » 28 Apr 2017, 4:53 pm

Gamerancher wrote:Depends on the rifle and the design of the bullet. Do you have a pic or maybe the dimensions of the bullet?
I shoot 560gr cast bullets out of a .45-90 CPA single shot, cartridge O.A.L would be too long for most lever guns. Even the 530gr bullet I used to shoot out of a .45-70 Sharps gave an O.A.L that wouldn't fit in a Marlin cowboy.

William "Buffalo Bill" Cody shot thousands of buffalo (bison) using the standard U.S army loading of 405gr lead bullet over 70gr of black powder in a Trapdoor Springfield rifle. Maybe look at replicating that load using smokeless. :unknown:

I do hope you are the "big" part of bigpete, that's a lot of lead you need to motivate, you'll certainly notice the recoil shooting that much bullet out of a light weight lever-gun. :D



I've been toying about with loads for my 45-70's for a while now and read in an article somewhere that I would get very good accuracy by duplicating the old standard load of 405 gn cast over 70 gn's of black with velocity running somewhere in between 1200 and 1400 fps.
I ended up running 23.5 gn's of 2207 just out of the ADI books load charts to land the velocity somewhere in that range and it turned out to be a very good load in both my 1886 and my Hi-Wall.
Easy on the shoulder as well!!!
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Gamerancher » 29 Apr 2017, 10:37 am

I've posted here before that you'll almost always find a sweet spot duplicating black-powder velocities in rifles that were designed for black-powder cartridges.
One I used to use in a Marlin Cowboy .45-70 for lever -gun silhouette was 20gr of 2205 behind a 370 RNFP cast bullet. Mild as hell to use and quite accurate out to the rams @ 200m.
I would add that 2205 is position sensitive when using light loads and would not recommend that load for hunting.
It's different when shooting at the range in competition where each shot is made in a controlled manor. Elevating the barrel while tapping the butt before each shot put the powder back against the primer for more consistency with the less than full case.
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Mick280 » 29 Apr 2017, 12:50 pm

Gamerancher wrote:I've posted here before that you'll almost always find a sweet spot duplicating black-powder velocities in rifles that were designed for black-powder cartridges.
One I used to use in a Marlin Cowboy .45-70 for lever -gun silhouette was 20gr of 2205 behind a 370 RNFP cast bullet. Mild as hell to use and quite accurate out to the rams @ 200m.
I would add that 2205 is position sensitive when using light loads and would not recommend that load for hunting.
It's different when shooting at the range in competition where each shot is made in a controlled manor. Elevating the barrel while tapping the butt before each shot put the powder back against the primer for more consistency with the less than full case.



It could even have been one of your posts that I was referring too mate!!
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by bigpete » 29 Apr 2017, 8:37 pm

OK so none of that info is much use when I'm talking about trying to develop a heavy load to smash a buff with.
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Mick280 » 29 Apr 2017, 8:45 pm

400 gn Barnes Origional on 47 gn's of 2207!!!
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Supaduke » 30 Apr 2017, 10:18 am

Haven't hunted with it yet, but I have used a 325gr FTX projectile in front of 50gr of 2207. Punches holes in 12mm steel plate at 200m easily.

That load will drop any creature that walks this earth.

I have used 405gr projectiles and they gobble up quite a bit of case capacity to maintain an OAL that will cycle.

I imagine 500+gr projies will not leave much capacity left to get enough oomph for any sort of decent range. No science in that however , just something I have observed when reloading.
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Mick280 » 30 Apr 2017, 11:03 am

Supaduke wrote:Haven't hunted with it yet, but I have used a 325gr FTX projectile in front of 50gr of 2207. Punches holes in 12mm steel plate at 200m easily.

That load will drop any creature that walks this earth.

I have used 405gr projectiles and they gobble up quite a bit of case capacity to maintain an OAL that will cycle.

I imagine 500+gr projies will not leave much capacity left to get enough oomph for any sort of decent range. No science in that however , just something I have observed when reloading.



The 400 gn Barnes cycle just fine in my 86,Seated and crimped into the canalure and hit like a 14 lb sledgehammer!!
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Wm.Traynor » 30 Apr 2017, 1:57 pm

Gamerancher wrote:The Rossi Rio-grande in .45-70 is a Marlin 336 action clone. Lots of bad reviews re quality in the U.S. Advice would be to carefully examine it in shop before paying and taking possession.


I'm glad you can't get a Rossi, bigpete. My 30/30 RG was a piece of junk and I flogged it off :cry:
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by bigpete » 30 Apr 2017, 5:20 pm

Honestly that's the first bad report I've heard. But now I'm looking at a marlin 1895CB
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Gamerancher » 01 May 2017, 8:28 am

The Rossi clone of the '92 Winchester is a pretty good gun, then again, it is a copy of the '92. :lol: Pretty sure they are only available in "pistol" cartridges, just like the original.
It is the "Rio-grande" that I've seen with the rubbish reviews.
I had a Marlin Cowboy in .45-70, it was a good accurate gun. I liked the long octagonal barrel and the rifle handled well. It's just that me and Marlins don't get on, ( bloody case comes out of the wrong place when ejected :lol: ). Sold it to a good mate who still uses it for lever-action silhouette.
Sorry bigpete but I never loaded it up for hunting like you require so unable to give a report. I can say that they are popular and are snapped up when advertised. :thumbsup:
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by in2anity » 01 May 2017, 9:08 pm

Gamerancher wrote:The Rossi clone of the '92 Winchester is a pretty good gun, then again, it is a copy of the '92. :lol: Pretty sure they are only available in "pistol" cartridges, just like the original.
It is the "Rio-grande" that I've seen with the rubbish reviews.
I had a Marlin Cowboy in .45-70, it was a good accurate gun. I liked the long octagonal barrel and the rifle handled well. It's just that me and Marlins don't get on, ( bloody case comes out of the wrong place when ejected :lol: ). Sold it to a good mate who still uses it for lever-action silhouette.
Sorry bigpete but I never loaded it up for hunting like you require so unable to give a report. I can say that they are popular and are snapped up when advertised. :thumbsup:


If you don't mind my asking GR, what was the marlin model, and roughly how accurate was it with cast? Also were you using 2207? Also (sorry one more question) was it drilled and tapped for (arpeture) sights?
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Gamerancher » 02 May 2017, 11:40 am

In reply to in2anity;
It was an 1895CB (Cowboy). 26" octagonal barrel with "Ballard" rifling. I had a Lee Shaver economy soule tang sight on it. I can't remember if the tang was pre-drilled or not. I had a 17A Lyman front sight on it and used a fine post insert.( CLAS rules dictate post front sight)
I loaded it with 20gr of 2205 behind a 370gr RNFP plain base cast bullet. It was very accurate, never benched it,( we shoot silhouette off-hand) but it would hit point of aim every time if I did my bit. "Minute of ram @ 200m" is what we are after in our game. :D It certainly did that. Reduced loads of 2205 can be position sensitive, so consistency in your loading and firing action is required. I think I also used a load of 16gr of Trail-boss with some success. Bear in mind these are reduced "target" loads that I used for reduced recoil which I find leads to better scores. I never used that rifle for hunting.
We used to shoot a "fun" match using lever guns at the full distance silhouette targets. Best I did with it was 5 X 200m chickens and 7 X 300m pigs. Ran out of elevation for the 385m turkeys and 500m rams, aiming at trees on the hill to try to hit a target 'aint real conducive to accuracy. :lol:
I sold it on as all of my other lever guns are Winchesters and my firing and ejecting method works really well with them, I can basically catch the empty shell without looking. The same technique doesn't work with Marlins due to the side eject. Just couldn't adjust to it so sold it to a mate who does very well with it.
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by in2anity » 02 May 2017, 1:07 pm

Gamerancher wrote: Reduced loads of 2205 can be position sensitive, so consistency in your loading and firing action is required. I think I also used a load of 16gr of Trail-boss with some success.


Thanks GR appreciate it - I'm shooting rimfire silhouette myself these days (and am absolutely LOVING it btw, much more exciting than the UIT [Olympic style] prone discipline that I grew up with) - I want to move into centerfire silhouette down the track (hence the interest in an accurate 45/70). That's very interesting what you said about "position sensitive" powder. I've been shooting offhand all my life, and I always felt the powders / factories I happened to use always shot where the rifle was pointing when I pulled the trigger. For standing offhand, my 22 falls into this same boat - it shoots where I'm pointing.

Then along came Trail Boss (under a 30cal in a 336) - when I load TB, for some weird reason my offhand shots always seemed to fall low and to the right (with a benchrest zero). Do you feel TB can also be position sensitive? I kept putting it down to my sling being too tight, but maybe it's the characteristics of the powder? Also why 2205 for 45/70 instead of 2207 (like you use under lead for the 30/30)?

Gamerancher wrote:In reply to in2anity;
It was an 1895CB (Cowboy). 26" octagonal barrel with "Ballard" rifling. I had a Lee Shaver economy soule tang sight on it. I can't remember if the tang was pre-drilled or not. I had a 17A Lyman front sight on it and used a fine post insert.( CLAS rules dictate post front sight) ... Ran out of elevation for the 385m turkeys and 500m rams, aiming at trees on the hill to try to hit a target 'aint real conducive to accuracy. :lol:


I read somewhere that the 1895CB is drilled the same as the 336 (this is what I'm trying to verify), meaning I should be able to transpose my Williams FP-336 receiver and lyman 17A (off my 336) onto the the 1895. I even replaced the elevation screw with the "long tk" version a while back, so I have a heap of elevation up my sleeve for reduced loads. Very tempting indeed...

Gamerancher wrote:I can basically catch the empty shell without looking. The same technique doesn't work with Marlins due to the side eject


Why can't you just let them fall? Is it because you don't want them to be damaged/dented by falling?
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by bladeracer » 02 May 2017, 1:27 pm

in2anity wrote:
Gamerancher wrote: Reduced loads of 2205 can be position sensitive, so consistency in your loading and firing action is required. I think I also used a load of 16gr of Trail-boss with some success.


Thanks GR appreciate it - I'm shooting rimfire silhouette myself these days (and am absolutely LOVING it btw, much more exciting than the UIT [Olympic style] prone discipline that I grew up with) - I want to move into centerfire silhouette down the track (hence the interest in an accurate 45/70). That's very interesting what you said about "position sensitive" powder. I've been shooting offhand all my life, and I always felt the powders / factories I happened to use always shot where the rifle was pointing when I pulled the trigger. For standing offhand, my 22 falls into this same boat - it shoots where I'm pointing.

Then along came Trail Boss (under a 30cal in a 336) - when I load TB, for some weird reason my offhand shots always seemed to fall low and to the right (with a benchrest zero). Do you feel TB can also be position sensitive? I kept putting it down to my sling being too tight, but maybe it's the characteristics powder? Also why 2205 for 45/70 instead of 2207 (like you use in a 30/30)?



I think he's referring to the position of the powder in the case, not the position of the shooter. Reduced loads leave a lot of air space in the case. If you point the rifle downwards before firing, the powder will be at the front of the case against the bullet. If you point it upwards the powder will be dumped right against the flash hole. Generally, for target shooting the powder will lie along the bottom of the case. Consistency counts.

I never expect my shots to hit the same point from different rests. Between bags, bipod, sling support and field rests it's likely to change. Zero the same way you intend to shoot.
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by in2anity » 02 May 2017, 1:30 pm

bladeracer wrote:I think he's referring to the position of the powder in the case, not the position of the shooter. Reduced loads leave a lot of air space in the case. If you point the rifle downwards before firing, the powder will be at the front of the case against the bullet. If you point it upwards the powder will be dumped right against the flash hole. Generally, for target shooting the powder will lie along the bottom of the case. Consistency counts.

I never expect my shots to hit the same point from different rests. Between bags, bipod, sling support and field rests it's likely to change. Zero the same way you intend to shoot.


Yeah after re-reading, that just occurred to me actually, makes sense :crazy: it's weird how the phenomenon only (seems to) exist when i use TB though, yet TB is a really fluffy powder, so you'd think it'd be the opposite.. Maybe it's a bit of cognitive bias on my end...
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by bladeracer » 02 May 2017, 1:42 pm

in2anity wrote:Yeah after re-reading, that just occurred to me actually, makes sense :crazy: it's weird how the phenomenon only (seems to) exist when i use TB though, yet TB is a really fluffy powder, so you'd think it'd be the opposite.. Maybe it's a bit of cognitive bias on my end...



Are you using magnum primers?
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by in2anity » 02 May 2017, 1:59 pm

bladeracer wrote:Are you using magnum primers?


I've experimented with them to try and achieve better stabilisation, but I never concluded whether they affected the (apparent) anomaly I speak of. I still have a packet or two in my safe i think...
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by bladeracer » 02 May 2017, 2:14 pm

in2anity wrote:
bladeracer wrote:Are you using magnum primers?


I've experimented with them to try and achieve better stabilisation, but I never concluded whether they affected the (apparent) anomaly I speak of. I still have a packet or two in my safe i think...



You could also try using a case filler to keep the powder over the flash hole.
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Gamerancher » 02 May 2017, 3:23 pm

Trail-boss works best with a "full" case, i.e full to the base of the seated bullet. Never compress it.

I don't use "fillers", introducing an unknown into the equation. Had a very long and interesting discussion with one of Americas most respected shooter/gun writers on the subject and he convinced me to leave them out.

Using reduced loads of fast burning powders in large rifle cases requires a lot of attention to detail when reloading to avoid "double" charging.

By position sensitive I mean the powder charge within the case. That 2205 load needs to be kept against the primer for best consistency, this was achieved by elevating the barrel and bumping the butt before firing. There was no problem with not doing this, but accuracy went to sh!t if you didn't.

With regards the Marlin, top of the action is pre-drilled, so if your Williams is a top mount, it should fit.
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Oldbloke » 02 May 2017, 6:56 pm

"By position sensitive I mean the powder charge within the case. That 2205 load needs to be kept against the primer for best consistency, this was achieved by elevating the barrel and bumping the butt before firing. There was no problem with not doing this, but accuracy went to sh!t if you didn't."

No expert here, but that is what I found too.
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by in2anity » 02 May 2017, 8:54 pm

Well bigpete if you do end up going with the marlin 1895CB AND you want a peep reciever AND you get a Williams FP-336, may I suggest you get the TK version. It's called the FP-336-TK. The reason I suggest this is because it comes with micrometer target knobs and the long elevation screw already - you'll need this to really reach out. I made the mistake of getting the standard version, and then I had to retrofit it with the long screw once I was reaching past 200m (when shooting cast lead over reduced loads that is).
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