Heavy 45/70 Loads

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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Gamerancher » 01 May 2017, 8:28 am

The Rossi clone of the '92 Winchester is a pretty good gun, then again, it is a copy of the '92. :lol: Pretty sure they are only available in "pistol" cartridges, just like the original.
It is the "Rio-grande" that I've seen with the rubbish reviews.
I had a Marlin Cowboy in .45-70, it was a good accurate gun. I liked the long octagonal barrel and the rifle handled well. It's just that me and Marlins don't get on, ( bloody case comes out of the wrong place when ejected :lol: ). Sold it to a good mate who still uses it for lever-action silhouette.
Sorry bigpete but I never loaded it up for hunting like you require so unable to give a report. I can say that they are popular and are snapped up when advertised. :thumbsup:
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by in2anity » 01 May 2017, 9:08 pm

Gamerancher wrote:The Rossi clone of the '92 Winchester is a pretty good gun, then again, it is a copy of the '92. :lol: Pretty sure they are only available in "pistol" cartridges, just like the original.
It is the "Rio-grande" that I've seen with the rubbish reviews.
I had a Marlin Cowboy in .45-70, it was a good accurate gun. I liked the long octagonal barrel and the rifle handled well. It's just that me and Marlins don't get on, ( bloody case comes out of the wrong place when ejected :lol: ). Sold it to a good mate who still uses it for lever-action silhouette.
Sorry bigpete but I never loaded it up for hunting like you require so unable to give a report. I can say that they are popular and are snapped up when advertised. :thumbsup:


If you don't mind my asking GR, what was the marlin model, and roughly how accurate was it with cast? Also were you using 2207? Also (sorry one more question) was it drilled and tapped for (arpeture) sights?
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Gamerancher » 02 May 2017, 11:40 am

In reply to in2anity;
It was an 1895CB (Cowboy). 26" octagonal barrel with "Ballard" rifling. I had a Lee Shaver economy soule tang sight on it. I can't remember if the tang was pre-drilled or not. I had a 17A Lyman front sight on it and used a fine post insert.( CLAS rules dictate post front sight)
I loaded it with 20gr of 2205 behind a 370gr RNFP plain base cast bullet. It was very accurate, never benched it,( we shoot silhouette off-hand) but it would hit point of aim every time if I did my bit. "Minute of ram @ 200m" is what we are after in our game. :D It certainly did that. Reduced loads of 2205 can be position sensitive, so consistency in your loading and firing action is required. I think I also used a load of 16gr of Trail-boss with some success. Bear in mind these are reduced "target" loads that I used for reduced recoil which I find leads to better scores. I never used that rifle for hunting.
We used to shoot a "fun" match using lever guns at the full distance silhouette targets. Best I did with it was 5 X 200m chickens and 7 X 300m pigs. Ran out of elevation for the 385m turkeys and 500m rams, aiming at trees on the hill to try to hit a target 'aint real conducive to accuracy. :lol:
I sold it on as all of my other lever guns are Winchesters and my firing and ejecting method works really well with them, I can basically catch the empty shell without looking. The same technique doesn't work with Marlins due to the side eject. Just couldn't adjust to it so sold it to a mate who does very well with it.
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by in2anity » 02 May 2017, 1:07 pm

Gamerancher wrote: Reduced loads of 2205 can be position sensitive, so consistency in your loading and firing action is required. I think I also used a load of 16gr of Trail-boss with some success.


Thanks GR appreciate it - I'm shooting rimfire silhouette myself these days (and am absolutely LOVING it btw, much more exciting than the UIT [Olympic style] prone discipline that I grew up with) - I want to move into centerfire silhouette down the track (hence the interest in an accurate 45/70). That's very interesting what you said about "position sensitive" powder. I've been shooting offhand all my life, and I always felt the powders / factories I happened to use always shot where the rifle was pointing when I pulled the trigger. For standing offhand, my 22 falls into this same boat - it shoots where I'm pointing.

Then along came Trail Boss (under a 30cal in a 336) - when I load TB, for some weird reason my offhand shots always seemed to fall low and to the right (with a benchrest zero). Do you feel TB can also be position sensitive? I kept putting it down to my sling being too tight, but maybe it's the characteristics of the powder? Also why 2205 for 45/70 instead of 2207 (like you use under lead for the 30/30)?

Gamerancher wrote:In reply to in2anity;
It was an 1895CB (Cowboy). 26" octagonal barrel with "Ballard" rifling. I had a Lee Shaver economy soule tang sight on it. I can't remember if the tang was pre-drilled or not. I had a 17A Lyman front sight on it and used a fine post insert.( CLAS rules dictate post front sight) ... Ran out of elevation for the 385m turkeys and 500m rams, aiming at trees on the hill to try to hit a target 'aint real conducive to accuracy. :lol:


I read somewhere that the 1895CB is drilled the same as the 336 (this is what I'm trying to verify), meaning I should be able to transpose my Williams FP-336 receiver and lyman 17A (off my 336) onto the the 1895. I even replaced the elevation screw with the "long tk" version a while back, so I have a heap of elevation up my sleeve for reduced loads. Very tempting indeed...

Gamerancher wrote:I can basically catch the empty shell without looking. The same technique doesn't work with Marlins due to the side eject


Why can't you just let them fall? Is it because you don't want them to be damaged/dented by falling?
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by bladeracer » 02 May 2017, 1:27 pm

in2anity wrote:
Gamerancher wrote: Reduced loads of 2205 can be position sensitive, so consistency in your loading and firing action is required. I think I also used a load of 16gr of Trail-boss with some success.


Thanks GR appreciate it - I'm shooting rimfire silhouette myself these days (and am absolutely LOVING it btw, much more exciting than the UIT [Olympic style] prone discipline that I grew up with) - I want to move into centerfire silhouette down the track (hence the interest in an accurate 45/70). That's very interesting what you said about "position sensitive" powder. I've been shooting offhand all my life, and I always felt the powders / factories I happened to use always shot where the rifle was pointing when I pulled the trigger. For standing offhand, my 22 falls into this same boat - it shoots where I'm pointing.

Then along came Trail Boss (under a 30cal in a 336) - when I load TB, for some weird reason my offhand shots always seemed to fall low and to the right (with a benchrest zero). Do you feel TB can also be position sensitive? I kept putting it down to my sling being too tight, but maybe it's the characteristics powder? Also why 2205 for 45/70 instead of 2207 (like you use in a 30/30)?



I think he's referring to the position of the powder in the case, not the position of the shooter. Reduced loads leave a lot of air space in the case. If you point the rifle downwards before firing, the powder will be at the front of the case against the bullet. If you point it upwards the powder will be dumped right against the flash hole. Generally, for target shooting the powder will lie along the bottom of the case. Consistency counts.

I never expect my shots to hit the same point from different rests. Between bags, bipod, sling support and field rests it's likely to change. Zero the same way you intend to shoot.
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by in2anity » 02 May 2017, 1:30 pm

bladeracer wrote:I think he's referring to the position of the powder in the case, not the position of the shooter. Reduced loads leave a lot of air space in the case. If you point the rifle downwards before firing, the powder will be at the front of the case against the bullet. If you point it upwards the powder will be dumped right against the flash hole. Generally, for target shooting the powder will lie along the bottom of the case. Consistency counts.

I never expect my shots to hit the same point from different rests. Between bags, bipod, sling support and field rests it's likely to change. Zero the same way you intend to shoot.


Yeah after re-reading, that just occurred to me actually, makes sense :crazy: it's weird how the phenomenon only (seems to) exist when i use TB though, yet TB is a really fluffy powder, so you'd think it'd be the opposite.. Maybe it's a bit of cognitive bias on my end...
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by bladeracer » 02 May 2017, 1:42 pm

in2anity wrote:Yeah after re-reading, that just occurred to me actually, makes sense :crazy: it's weird how the phenomenon only (seems to) exist when i use TB though, yet TB is a really fluffy powder, so you'd think it'd be the opposite.. Maybe it's a bit of cognitive bias on my end...



Are you using magnum primers?
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by in2anity » 02 May 2017, 1:59 pm

bladeracer wrote:Are you using magnum primers?


I've experimented with them to try and achieve better stabilisation, but I never concluded whether they affected the (apparent) anomaly I speak of. I still have a packet or two in my safe i think...
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by bladeracer » 02 May 2017, 2:14 pm

in2anity wrote:
bladeracer wrote:Are you using magnum primers?


I've experimented with them to try and achieve better stabilisation, but I never concluded whether they affected the (apparent) anomaly I speak of. I still have a packet or two in my safe i think...



You could also try using a case filler to keep the powder over the flash hole.
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Gamerancher » 02 May 2017, 3:23 pm

Trail-boss works best with a "full" case, i.e full to the base of the seated bullet. Never compress it.

I don't use "fillers", introducing an unknown into the equation. Had a very long and interesting discussion with one of Americas most respected shooter/gun writers on the subject and he convinced me to leave them out.

Using reduced loads of fast burning powders in large rifle cases requires a lot of attention to detail when reloading to avoid "double" charging.

By position sensitive I mean the powder charge within the case. That 2205 load needs to be kept against the primer for best consistency, this was achieved by elevating the barrel and bumping the butt before firing. There was no problem with not doing this, but accuracy went to sh!t if you didn't.

With regards the Marlin, top of the action is pre-drilled, so if your Williams is a top mount, it should fit.
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Oldbloke » 02 May 2017, 6:56 pm

"By position sensitive I mean the powder charge within the case. That 2205 load needs to be kept against the primer for best consistency, this was achieved by elevating the barrel and bumping the butt before firing. There was no problem with not doing this, but accuracy went to sh!t if you didn't."

No expert here, but that is what I found too.
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by in2anity » 02 May 2017, 8:54 pm

Well bigpete if you do end up going with the marlin 1895CB AND you want a peep reciever AND you get a Williams FP-336, may I suggest you get the TK version. It's called the FP-336-TK. The reason I suggest this is because it comes with micrometer target knobs and the long elevation screw already - you'll need this to really reach out. I made the mistake of getting the standard version, and then I had to retrofit it with the long screw once I was reaching past 200m (when shooting cast lead over reduced loads that is).
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by bigpete » 02 May 2017, 9:10 pm

No worries
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Wm.Traynor » 03 May 2017, 9:40 am

Could not resist "window shopping"
1895 Marlin SB 26" Octagonal barrel $1475
Hope it you like it bigpete :thumbsup: FWIW, RealGuns liked his
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by in2anity » 03 May 2017, 10:42 am

Very nice. The 26" barrel would definitely help with iron-sight precision. My only complaint is the lack of sling studs (mainly for a stabilising sling). Also the triggers suck on the marlins - you need to put a "Wild West Trigger Happy Kit" in her to really make her sing. Do you guys think the mechanical accuracy of the 18.5" would surpass the 26" version?
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Gamerancher » 03 May 2017, 11:30 am

No. Longer barrel will give better velocity, stabilize heavier bullets better and the longer sight radius is better when using iron sights.

Also, someone asked why I catch my empty cases, purely to look after them at the range, landing on concrete is not good for them.
If I'm in the bush hunting, over the years I've developed a habit of doing the same, it saves loosing them.
In2anity, slings are not allowed in "sillywet" mate.
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by in2anity » 03 May 2017, 11:48 am

Gamerancher wrote:In2anity, slings are not allowed in "sillywet" mate.


Found that out not so long ago when I started shooting rimfire silhouette; the sling doesn't work too well standing anyway. But I like to use a sling for 2/3 positions in 3-position centerfire matches is all... not to mention in the field. But hey, practically I don't really see myself lugging around a 26" barrel on foot - that's what the 30/30 is for i guess :thumbsup:
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Gamerancher » 03 May 2017, 1:23 pm

I wouldn't be recommending a 1895 CB in .45-70 for 3 P shooting. :lol:
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by in2anity » 03 May 2017, 1:53 pm

Gamerancher wrote:I wouldn't be recommending a 1895 CB in .45-70 for 3 P shooting. :lol:


i mean it'll probably never happen; i guess it'd have to fall under a fun MRCA match... but why do you think it'd be a bad idea?
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Gamerancher » 04 May 2017, 9:39 am

This is the 3 P shooting I'm talking about.
3 p shooting.jpg
3 p shooting.jpg (49.28 KiB) Viewed 7009 times

This is the type of rifle used.
3 p rifle.jpg
3 p rifle.jpg (34.38 KiB) Viewed 7009 times


Now do you see why I don't think a Marlin Cowboy in .45-70 would be suitable.
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by in2anity » 04 May 2017, 9:47 am

Gamerancher wrote:This is the 3 P shooting I'm talking about..


Oh right - I see the disconnect, I see your point, I think I'm using incorrect terminology (again! :? ) but this is the kind of 3 position (military) style I was referring to (and occasionally participate in):

Methuen sitting_BA7D3160-44D0-11E3-A7A7005056A302E6.jpg
Methuen sitting_BA7D3160-44D0-11E3-A7A7005056A302E6.jpg (78.53 KiB) Viewed 7007 times


But like I said it's obviously no milsurp rifle, so it'd have to be used in a "fun" match, or your score wouldn't be considered. I think the 1895CB could work quite well for this application (so long as you had those sling studs! which I think I'd bubba on somehow)
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by bigpete » 14 Jun 2017, 9:35 pm

I'm still chasing useful info in regards to this
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Gamerancher » 15 Jun 2017, 11:23 am

If I have been reading right, you are after a load using 2208 powder behind your 405gr cast bullets for hunting large beasts?
My suggestion would be to start at 45gr and work up to 50gr max. You will not have much success trying to drive that bullet much faster than about 1700f/s.
A leaded barrel and gas-cut bullets with a loss of accuracy will be the result of going much faster.
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by bigpete » 15 Jun 2017, 1:13 pm

No I'm looking for a load for 570gn projectiles
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Gamerancher » 15 Jun 2017, 1:20 pm

Okay, my bad. What do they look like, round nose, flat point ? Do you have some pics or dimensions? Your C.O.L is going to determine seating depth , hence, powder room in the case. More info required.
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by bigpete » 15 Jun 2017, 5:22 pm

Its the 570gn flat point gas check from CBE
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Tripod » 15 Jun 2017, 7:30 pm

Tiger650 wrote:.454 Casull ?
A brother and a good friend both have low mileage late production Marlins bought cheap after previous [ambitious] owners became shy of them.

I think you will find they are Rossi's as Marlin haven't made any in 454, If they had I would own one.
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Gamerancher » 16 Jun 2017, 10:39 am

Okay, you'll need to get them out at around 12-1300 f/s. That will be duplicating the "buffalo" loads that were used on the American Bison herds.
Folks are still using that loading today on modern Bison hunts.
Heart-lung shots with full penetration are ideal. Of coarse spine and brain shots work also.
That is a rather heavy bullet in your Marlin, usually 405gr due to C.O.L restrictions.
Perhaps start at 35gr of the 2208 that you want to use and work up. Don't be fooled by the large case capacity, it was designed for black-powder not smokeless.
You have to keep the pressure down to a maximum of 28000 CUP in the Marlin. High pressure smokeless loadings for this case are only for the Ruger #1 and #3.
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by Tripod » 16 Jun 2017, 1:53 pm

Gamerancher wrote:Okay, .
You have to keep the pressure down to a maximum of 28000 CUP in the Marlin. High pressure smokeless loadings for this case are only for the Ruger #1 and #3.

bulls**t, Marlin are good for 40,000 CUP Trapdoors are only loaded up to 28,000 CUP.
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Re: Heavy 45/70 Loads

Post by bigpete » 16 Jun 2017, 6:22 pm

Tripod wrote:
Gamerancher wrote:Okay, .
You have to keep the pressure down to a maximum of 28000 CUP in the Marlin. High pressure smokeless loadings for this case are only for the Ruger #1 and #3.

bulls**t, Marlin are good for 40,000 CUP Trapdoors are only loaded up to 28,000 CUP.

Yeah all the reloading data I've looked at says the Marlin's are good up to 40k.
I did find some data for a 550gn projectile and AR 2206H ,and some for the 570gn CBE using 2219. I've got 2206H,reloader 7, and W748 in stock along with 2208. So if anyone knows a load using one of them ......?
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