204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

[Cooper]

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Still early days. But I loaded up some 32gr Zmax and 40gr Vmax. I have a new Howa mini action which I believe has a 1 in 9 twist. I put 12 shots of factory through to sight I and tried some staring loads using AR2208. I have benchmark 8208 and AR2206H. But I thought I'd start somewhere and I have heaps of AR2208. The 32 Zmax were fine. But the 40gr Vmax have a problem. See pictures (having trouble loading- pictures) will try again

[Supaduke]

Not stabilising, possibly too heavy. Powders would be adequate to drive it fast enough. Being a mini action Howa , I'm assuming the rifle is newish and not shot out. Stick to 32gr or try a faster powder like 2206 or 8208

[bigfellascott]

Yep lots of 204's won't stabilise the 40gn V-max - hence why most use the 39gn SBK instead as it usually shoots very well.

[Apollo]

I would check the twist rate, most .204 Ruger are 1:12 and 40gr Bullets may or may not work well. The photo shows that they are not stable at all and nothing you can do about it. If it is 1:9 Twist then you are not driving them fast enough.

As Scott says, try some 39gr SBK as they are a different shape and length bullet so may just work in your Howa.

You need to drive them hard and AR 2208 is not a good powder for this cartridge, go a faster powder. AR2206H - AR8208 - BM2 - AR2219 in that order. The later two are really good with the lighter 30-32gr Bullets.

You need to drive a .204 Ruger hard, light loads do not perform well especially out in the field with a breeze. Push it....

PS... Be careful of the Primers being used. Do not use Federal 200 Primers as they are way too soft in their cup and you will most likely get a pierced primer causing blow back which is not nice to your own face nor the Bolt Head. Federal 205M, CCI and/or Remington 7.5 all are much better suited to this high pressure cartridge design.

[bladeracer]

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Still early days. But I loaded up some 32gr Zmax and 40gr Vmax. I have a new Howa mini action which I believe has a 1 in 9 twist. I put 12 shots of factory through to sight I and tried some staring loads using AR2208. I have benchmark 8208 and AR2206H. But I thought I'd start somewhere and I have heaps of AR2208. The 32 Zmax were fine. But the 40gr Vmax have a problem. See pictures (having trouble loading- pictures) will try again

Wow, I've never seen that. My Ruger shoots the 40gn VMax very well indeed, even at low velocities and Ruger specifies 12"-twist.
I'm using AR2206H and BM8208.
I would measure your twist rate to be sure.
What velocities are you getting?

[Apollo]

"I've never seen that." Do you mean you have never seen a bullet "tumble" and hit a target sideways..??

Typical example in any calibre of a bullet that is not suited to the twist rate and does not stabilise...ie tumbles. Sometimes it can be corrected by driving the velocity up quite a large amount but the stability will always be on the edge.

Sometimes the bullet will not even reach the target, causes quite a bit of head scratching and wondering what happened... Gee, I'm a bad shot or wow, how did I miss that.

[bladeracer]

"I've never seen that." Do you mean you have never seen a bullet "tumble" and hit a target sideways..??

Typical example in any calibre of a bullet that is not suited to the twist rate and does not stabilise...ie tumbles. Sometimes it can be corrected by driving the velocity up quite a large amount but the stability will always be on the edge.

Sometimes the bullet will not even reach the target, causes quite a bit of head scratching and wondering what happened... Gee, I'm a bad shot or wow, how did I miss that.

I've seen bullets tumble, I've never seen a 40gn VMax tumble from my Ruger .204

[bigfellascott]

The ADI charts shows 2206H starting at 26gn going up to 27.7c for the 40gn Vmax and 8208 starting at 26gn going up to 27.3gn so have a look at those if you have the powder, hopefully they will get it to stabilise as they are faster burning which should help stabilise it with some luck.

http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloade ... on_WEB.pdf

[Cooper]

I will try and do some bench mark 8208 loads tomorrow. I also have Ar2206H. My Howa mini has the 20 inch varmint heavy barrel. It seems to be shooting the 32gr bullets fine. I also have a Magneto speed to check velocity. I was surprised by the tumble of the 40gr Vmax. Maybe it just doesn't like them? Bear in mind the gun now has a grand total of 25 shoots through it. Looks like I'll be doing a bit of load development. Thanks for the replies.

[Cooper]

Well three velocity checks in I decided I won't be using my Magneto speed of my 204 again. With the 40gr VMax I'd already decided it would be a bit risky with the bullet tumbling so dramatically.

Third shot in using 32gr loaded with Ar2208 27gr bullet failed to reach target (splatter or muzzle blast slightly marked Magneto speed) first two shots were fine. Bullets holes touching each other 3180fps average.

Tried the 40gr Vmax's loaded with 26.6grs of benchmark 8208. I'd only loaded two. Both tumbled. Gun doesn't like 40gr Vmax's

Tried both factory Hornady and Sellior bellot and both shot incredably well. Probably .3 or .4 (only at 63 metres)

Fire the rest of AR2208 loaded ammo. Not as good factory but still only half an inch group size.

Still have no idea what caused 32gr Zmax to fail to reach target. The only think I noticed is a slight bit of damage to some of the ballistic tip from a sharp edge inside the Lee bullet seating die. Will try clean up sharp edge inside die. Only a very slight nick on the tip. Dunno?

[Cooper]

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Not a very clear picture of damage to ballistic tips

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[bigfellascott]

I'd be upping the charge if it's only reaching 3100fps with the 32s way too slow - you should be able to get those up around 3800fps if not more. They factory shoots well by the looks of it any idea of velocities with those?

[Gwion]

Concur. Sounds slow for a .204. Maybe that is the issue as suggested earlier.

[Apollo]

3,100 fps is even slow for a 40gr Bullet in a .204 Ruger. For 32gr Bullets you should be around 4,000 fps or better. Even mild loads should be above 3,900 fps.

When I first started with a .204 Ruger I was using Hornady Varmint Express factory ammo which used 32gr V-Max Bullets. Factory velocity claim was 4,225 fps and my Chrony figures weren't that high but not a great deal slower either. I was really just testing different ammo and collecting spent cases. The 40gr V-Max version factory claim 3,900 fps and again I never recorded a velocity that high, however the CZ 527 and Sako 85 Varmints did not like the 40gr Ammo. They both work well using 39gr Sierra BlitzKings and my first tests were using Federal V-Shok which at that time used the Sierra 39gr BK bullet, factory claimed velocity was 3,750 fps and I actually measured a higher velocity.

These days Mate and I both use Nosler Custom Brass, expensive but very very good. It's fully factory prepped and sorted Norma Brass. Does give much more consistent results when testing loads.

Even though I have near 1,000 39gr SBK's we would rather use lighter bullets so have a huge supply of Berger 30gr and 35gr which used to see the most use. Don't think I'll run out of bullets. Fun calibre and quick but not as quick as the Sako S491 22BR I use when the wind picks up.

[bladeracer]

3,100 fps is even slow for a 40gr Bullet in a .204 Ruger. For 32gr Bullets you should be around 4,000 fps or better. Even mild loads should be above 3,900 fps.

When I first started with a .204 Ruger I was using Hornady Varmint Express factory ammo which used 32gr V-Max Bullets. Factory velocity claim was 4,225 fps and my Chrony figures weren't that high but not a great deal slower either. I was really just testing different ammo and collecting spent cases. The 40gr V-Max version factory claim 3,900 fps and again I never recorded a velocity that high, however the CZ 527 and Sako 85 Varmints did not like the 40gr Ammo. They both work well using 39gr Sierra BlitzKings and my first tests were using Federal V-Shok which at that time used the Sierra 39gr BK bullet, factory claimed velocity was 3,750 fps and I actually measured a higher velocity.

These days Mate and I both use Nosler Custom Brass, expensive but very very good. It's fully factory prepped and sorted Norma Brass. Does give much more consistent results when testing loads.

Even though I have near 1,000 39gr SBK's we would rather use lighter bullets so have a huge supply of Berger 30gr and 35gr which used to see the most use. Don't think I'll run out of bullets. Fun calibre and quick but not as quick as the Sako S491 22BR I use when the wind picks up.

The 32gn VMax/ZMax works fine even at subsonic velocities. My favorite Trailboss load is the ZMax on 8.5gns at 2400fps, have put hundreds of those through my Ruger. Easy sub-MoA.

[happyhunter]

I will try and do some bench mark 8208 loads tomorrow. I also have Ar2206H. My Howa mini has the 20 inch varmint heavy barrel. It seems to be shooting the 32gr bullets fine. I also have a Magneto speed to check velocity. I was surprised by the tumble of the 40gr Vmax. Maybe it just doesn't like them? Bear in mind the gun now has a grand total of 25 shoots through it. Looks like I'll be doing a bit of load development. Thanks for the replies.

There is your answer.. 20" barrel isn't long enough to get the velocity you need to spin the 40s fast enough to stabilize. Unlikely the Howa is a 1:9 twist, otherwise you wouldn't be key holing the 40s. Try 39 grain SBKs and if they don't work be happy with the 32s as that is what the 204 is designed to shoot best.

Something a lot of people forget is that the 204 is based on a magnum case. Magnums carry more powder therefore like longer barrels. Most 204 Rugers have 24" barrels, some 26". At 20 inches, the Howa is never going to achieve the velocities the 204 is capable of.

[Apollo]

The shorter barrel is also most likely not burning all the powder with the likes of AR2208 and as in most short barrels it needs a faster burning powder to achieve a full burn before the bullet exits the barrel. I'd be trying AR2219 or Bench Mark 2, even Alliant Reloader 10X if Bench Mark 8208 isn't achieving good results.

Even though it is a Magnum Case and even using Magnum type Primers it still should be giving a full powder burn to achieve decent results.

The CZ 527 Varmint that I tested for a mate has a 25.5" barrel and I think that contributed a lot to it's excellent performance.

[Cooper]

I think Apollo is on the money.
I still cannot believe how good the factory ammo is .3 and .4 groups. I thought 8208 was going to powder and I was going to have to load it hot. Some far I have just started to flatten primers and groups aren't closing up. Around 1 inch
Switched to 2206h and shoot a .4 group.
Also tried trail boss 8.5grs for around an inch. Thanks Bladeracer.

I need to do some more AR2206H testing. But looking very promising.
I fire the gun the other evening and the muzzle flash was extremely noticeable. Therefore I think Apollo is right about the short barrel. I was thinking about BM2. Haven't thought about Ar2219.
Also I'm not using magnum primers. Just standard Small rifle primers. I have some Small rifle magnum primers so will try them. Thanks

[bigfellascott]

The Rem 7.5's are a great primer for the 204, I'm over max loads with all my loads in the 204 and no signs of pressure at all, primers are fine, bolt lift is fine, cases are fine etc - if you can't get the 40's shooting any good get some 39gn SBK's I'd be very surprised if they don't shoot well in it (seems to be the bullet of choice for a lot of 204 owners.

[bladeracer]

The Rem 7.5's are a great primer for the 204, I'm over max loads with all my loads in the 204 and no signs of pressure at all, primers are fine, bolt lift is fine, cases are fine etc - if you can't get the 40's shooting any good get some 39gn SBK's I'd be very surprised if they don't shoot well in it (seems to be the bullet of choice for a lot of 204 owners.

Agreed, I'm using the Remington's and have to push way over max recommended to get even the first signs of pressure.
39gn SBK's go well in my Ruger at 3800fps.

According to this the Howa .204 is a 12"-twist?
http://www.howarifles.eu/resources/HOWA.pdf

[Cooper]

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That must be old? I thought all the Howa .223 were 1:9 in now not 1:12.

I have the mini action which I was told was 1:9. As per pic. Guess I need to measure twist to confirm!

[Apollo]

The link is to Howa 1500 Rifles. That's NOT what is being discussed here.

"Cooper" has a Howa Mini Action with a Heavy Barrel which is 20" and 1:9 Twist Rate.

http://www.osaaustralia.com.au/products ... vy-barrel/

Any of the info about loads mentioned so far are from people with a Howa 1500 Short Action 1:12 Twist and 24" Barrels as best I can tell. They aren't the same beast.

What is required is a powder load that will burn completely in the short 20" barrel in order to produce a decent velocity. Velocities and bullet weight will be different and hence why I keep saying a "Faster Powder" to get a complete burn before the bullet leaves the barrel. It should be possible to get very good accuracy from a short barrel. Barrel length really doesn't affect accuracy within reason, it will however never be possible to achieve the velocity created by longer barrels.

Every barrel behaves differently and hence why we do load development to find the combination that is "In Tune" for any given barrel.

Also, the .204 Ruger is a relatively high pressure cartridge at around 55-57,000 PSI and soft thin cup primers get a real workout and hence why it's a fair risk of piecing a primer and causing a blowback, frightening for shooter but also will end up damaging a bolt face. The thicker primer cups are CCI 450 & BR4 @ 0.025"...Remington 7 1/2 @0.025" and close are Federal 205M @0.225. The softest and thinest primers are the likes of Federal 200 @ 0.019" and hence why in so many calibres they show very early signs of flattening and/or piercing with even modest loads in the higher pressure cartridge designs.

[Apollo]

Sorry "Cooper" ... You posted whilst I was still typing. You are correct.

The other guys are talking about Howa 1500's I believe and these are referred to as "Short Action", come in 24" barrels and 1:12 Twist Rate. So, a different animal.

As a side point, I shoot a 6mmPPC Target Rifle. One barrel because it has been re-chamber a few times is 18" and the other is 24". Same 64gr Bullets but different powder loads and velocities but both are extremely accurate at 0.1 MOA... that's correct, it's one hole groups basically and anything worse is operator error and/or not reading conditions.

BTW... If your Mini Barrel was still 1:9 Twist but 24" length then I don't think you would be having a problem at all with the 40gr Bullets even with AR2208 powder.

[bladeracer]

That must be old? I thought all the Howa .223 were 1:9 in now not 1:12.

I have the mini action which I was told was 1:9. As per pic. Guess I need to measure twist to confirm!

Yes, the .223 is 9" twist - but I'm unable to find anything anywhere that indicates any Howa .204 as being anything other than 12" twist rate.
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/barreled-receivers/1500-barreled-action-mini-action-heavy-blue-204-ruger-prod94580.aspx?psize=96&avs%7cManufacturer_1=HOWA

I did see on a forum somebody that custom barreled one to a 10" twist.
I would definitely measure your twist yourself.

[bladeracer]

From what I can find if you want a 9"-twist .204 you'd have to get a custom barrel.

Pac-Nor have the biggest range - 7", 8", 8.5", 9", 10", 11", 12", 14" and 16".
http://pac-nor.com/barrels/

Benchmark and Douglas do 8", 9", 10", 11" and 12".
http://benchmark-barrels.com/Benchmark_Barrels/Benchmark_Barrels_-_Contours.html
http://www.douglasbarrels.net/chamberings/index.html

Bartlein do 9", 10", 11", 12" and 13".
http://bartleinbarrels.com/calibers/

Kreiger and Hart do 9", 10", 11" and 12".
http://www.brunoshooters.com/category/barrels_krieger_20.html
http://www.hartbarrels.com/barrels/caliber-and-twist/

Shilen do 9", 10" and 12".
http://www.shilen.com/calibersAndTwists.html

McGowen do 10",11" and 12".
http://mcgowenbarrel.com/product-category/misc_barrels/

Lilja only do 11" and 12".
http://riflebarrels.com/product-category/drop-in-barrels/ar/ar15/204-ruger/

Muller Works do 8" and 11".
http://bugholes.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=88_89_94

Bulberry and ER Shaw only do 12".
https://www.bullberry.com/bolt-action-barrels
http://www.ershawbarrels.com/scb-twist-rates.php

Hawk Hill, Rock Creek, Broughton, Brux and Hardy don't list .204.
http://www.hawkhillcustom.com/rifle-barrels.html
http://www.rockcreekbarrels.com/barrel-info/
http://www.rifle-barrels.net/bore.html
http://www.bruxbarrels.com/
http://hardyrifleengineering.co.nz/category/barrels/calibres-and-twists/

[Apollo]

I think "Cooper" had better measure the Twist Rate.

Any of the information is a bit ambiguous listing the twist rates. The mention of 1:9 Twist at the end of the specifications in brackets may or may not only refer to the last calibre mentioned, being the .223R. Perhaps that is the only 1:9 twist. Who knows...?? I don't own one, sorry. I have only played with one Howa 1500 and that was a .223R with a measured 1:9 Twist Varmint Barrel. It was pretty accurate once a decent load was found for two weights of bullets to be used.

The problems "Cooper" is having would make more sense if his was in fact a 1:12 Twist. Barrel too short to enable a high enough velocity to get the 40gr bullets to work reasonably with a powder available to the reloader bearing in mind that Factory Ammo is usually pretty hot and uses an unknown powder or perhaps a blended powder not available to the public.

Wish the rifle was a bit closer to me, sounds like an interesting project to go through any number of fast burn powders I have on the shelf.

[Gwion]

Yep. I think the (9") only refers to the 223. My main reason for thinking this is because I can't imagine Howa fitting a 222 with a 1:9 barrel.

[bigfellascott]

I think "Cooper" had better measure the Twist Rate.

Any of the information is a bit ambiguous listing the twist rates. The mention of 1:9 Twist at the end of the specifications in brackets may or may not only refer to the last calibre mentioned, being the .223R. Perhaps that is the only 1:9 twist. Who knows...?? I don't own one, sorry. I have only played with one Howa 1500 and that was a .223R with a measured 1:9 Twist Varmint Barrel. It was pretty accurate once a decent load was found for two weights of bullets to be used.

The problems "Cooper" is having would make more sense if his was in fact a 1:12 Twist. Barrel too short to enable a high enough velocity to get the 40gr bullets to work reasonably with a powder available to the reloader bearing in mind that Factory Ammo is usually pretty hot and uses an unknown powder or perhaps a blended powder not available to the public.

Wish the rifle was a bit closer to me, sounds like an interesting project to go through any number of fast burn powders I have on the shelf.

Yep I reckon it is a 1in12 and I reckon you are spot on re the barrel length being a bit short to help stablise the 40gn with the powders he has available to him, personally I would just get some lighter projies and go from there (those 40's seem to be problematic when it comes to the 204's and just ain't worth the time and effort/expense when there are other projies available that shoot fine and kill just as well.

[Cooper]

I'll try and measure the twist tonight...

I have a squeaky clean barrel and a 1 in 10(1/2) twist
I tried several times using a cleaning rod and jamming a couple of cleaning patches on to make it tight enough. But couldn't get an accurate reading. To be continued... I'll stick with 32gr bullets and try work up a good load. I also see a visit to gun shop in the near future to get some faster burning powder and some more factory ammo to shoot.

[Cooper]

Well I'm shooting half inch groups with both 8208 and 2206h. I actually had reduce the load with 8208. Now running 27.3gr which is below the staring load in the ADI manual. I've ordered 1000 32gr Z max and need to get some new Norma or Noslar brass as I've already had a few neck splits with the Hornady brass.