204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by bigfellascott » 08 May 2017, 8:34 pm

The Rem 7.5's are a great primer for the 204, I'm over max loads with all my loads in the 204 and no signs of pressure at all, primers are fine, bolt lift is fine, cases are fine etc - if you can't get the 40's shooting any good get some 39gn SBK's I'd be very surprised if they don't shoot well in it (seems to be the bullet of choice for a lot of 204 owners.
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by bladeracer » 08 May 2017, 8:53 pm

bigfellascott wrote:The Rem 7.5's are a great primer for the 204, I'm over max loads with all my loads in the 204 and no signs of pressure at all, primers are fine, bolt lift is fine, cases are fine etc - if you can't get the 40's shooting any good get some 39gn SBK's I'd be very surprised if they don't shoot well in it (seems to be the bullet of choice for a lot of 204 owners.


Agreed, I'm using the Remington's and have to push way over max recommended to get even the first signs of pressure.
39gn SBK's go well in my Ruger at 3800fps.

According to this the Howa .204 is a 12"-twist?
http://www.howarifles.eu/resources/HOWA.pdf
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by Cooper » 08 May 2017, 10:54 pm

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That must be old? I thought all the Howa .223 were 1:9 in now not 1:12.

I have the mini action which I was told was 1:9. As per pic. Guess I need to measure twist to confirm!
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by Apollo » 08 May 2017, 11:03 pm

The link is to Howa 1500 Rifles. That's NOT what is being discussed here.

"Cooper" has a Howa Mini Action with a Heavy Barrel which is 20" and 1:9 Twist Rate.

http://www.osaaustralia.com.au/products ... vy-barrel/

Any of the info about loads mentioned so far are from people with a Howa 1500 Short Action 1:12 Twist and 24" Barrels as best I can tell. They aren't the same beast.

What is required is a powder load that will burn completely in the short 20" barrel in order to produce a decent velocity. Velocities and bullet weight will be different and hence why I keep saying a "Faster Powder" to get a complete burn before the bullet leaves the barrel. It should be possible to get very good accuracy from a short barrel. Barrel length really doesn't affect accuracy within reason, it will however never be possible to achieve the velocity created by longer barrels.

Every barrel behaves differently and hence why we do load development to find the combination that is "In Tune" for any given barrel.

Also, the .204 Ruger is a relatively high pressure cartridge at around 55-57,000 PSI and soft thin cup primers get a real workout and hence why it's a fair risk of piecing a primer and causing a blowback, frightening for shooter but also will end up damaging a bolt face. The thicker primer cups are CCI 450 & BR4 @ 0.025"...Remington 7 1/2 @0.025" and close are Federal 205M @0.225. The softest and thinest primers are the likes of Federal 200 @ 0.019" and hence why in so many calibres they show very early signs of flattening and/or piercing with even modest loads in the higher pressure cartridge designs.
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by Apollo » 08 May 2017, 11:16 pm

Sorry "Cooper" ... You posted whilst I was still typing. You are correct.

The other guys are talking about Howa 1500's I believe and these are referred to as "Short Action", come in 24" barrels and 1:12 Twist Rate. So, a different animal.

As a side point, I shoot a 6mmPPC Target Rifle. One barrel because it has been re-chamber a few times is 18" and the other is 24". Same 64gr Bullets but different powder loads and velocities but both are extremely accurate at 0.1 MOA... that's correct, it's one hole groups basically and anything worse is operator error and/or not reading conditions.

BTW... If your Mini Barrel was still 1:9 Twist but 24" length then I don't think you would be having a problem at all with the 40gr Bullets even with AR2208 powder.
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by bladeracer » 09 May 2017, 3:38 am

Cooper wrote:That must be old? I thought all the Howa .223 were 1:9 in now not 1:12.

I have the mini action which I was told was 1:9. As per pic. Guess I need to measure twist to confirm!


Yes, the .223 is 9" twist - but I'm unable to find anything anywhere that indicates any Howa .204 as being anything other than 12" twist rate.
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/barreled-receivers/1500-barreled-action-mini-action-heavy-blue-204-ruger-prod94580.aspx?psize=96&avs%7cManufacturer_1=HOWA

I did see on a forum somebody that custom barreled one to a 10" twist.
I would definitely measure your twist yourself.
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by bladeracer » 09 May 2017, 4:26 am

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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by Apollo » 09 May 2017, 8:47 am

I think "Cooper" had better measure the Twist Rate.

Any of the information is a bit ambiguous listing the twist rates. The mention of 1:9 Twist at the end of the specifications in brackets may or may not only refer to the last calibre mentioned, being the .223R. Perhaps that is the only 1:9 twist. Who knows...?? I don't own one, sorry. I have only played with one Howa 1500 and that was a .223R with a measured 1:9 Twist Varmint Barrel. It was pretty accurate once a decent load was found for two weights of bullets to be used.

The problems "Cooper" is having would make more sense if his was in fact a 1:12 Twist. Barrel too short to enable a high enough velocity to get the 40gr bullets to work reasonably with a powder available to the reloader bearing in mind that Factory Ammo is usually pretty hot and uses an unknown powder or perhaps a blended powder not available to the public.

Wish the rifle was a bit closer to me, sounds like an interesting project to go through any number of fast burn powders I have on the shelf.
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by Gwion » 09 May 2017, 9:20 am

Yep. I think the (9") only refers to the 223. My main reason for thinking this is because I can't imagine Howa fitting a 222 with a 1:9 barrel.
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by bigfellascott » 09 May 2017, 10:04 am

Apollo wrote:I think "Cooper" had better measure the Twist Rate.

Any of the information is a bit ambiguous listing the twist rates. The mention of 1:9 Twist at the end of the specifications in brackets may or may not only refer to the last calibre mentioned, being the .223R. Perhaps that is the only 1:9 twist. Who knows...?? I don't own one, sorry. I have only played with one Howa 1500 and that was a .223R with a measured 1:9 Twist Varmint Barrel. It was pretty accurate once a decent load was found for two weights of bullets to be used.

The problems "Cooper" is having would make more sense if his was in fact a 1:12 Twist. Barrel too short to enable a high enough velocity to get the 40gr bullets to work reasonably with a powder available to the reloader bearing in mind that Factory Ammo is usually pretty hot and uses an unknown powder or perhaps a blended powder not available to the public.

Wish the rifle was a bit closer to me, sounds like an interesting project to go through any number of fast burn powders I have on the shelf.


Yep I reckon it is a 1in12 and I reckon you are spot on re the barrel length being a bit short to help stablise the 40gn with the powders he has available to him, personally I would just get some lighter projies and go from there (those 40's seem to be problematic when it comes to the 204's and just ain't worth the time and effort/expense when there are other projies available that shoot fine and kill just as well. :thumbsup:
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by Cooper » 09 May 2017, 10:15 am

I'll try and measure the twist tonight...

I have a squeaky clean barrel and a 1 in 10(1/2) :crazy: twist
I tried several times using a cleaning rod and jamming a couple of cleaning patches on to make it tight enough. But couldn't get an accurate reading. To be continued... I'll stick with 32gr bullets and try work up a good load. I also see a visit to gun shop in the near future to get some faster burning powder and some more factory ammo to shoot.
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by Cooper » 21 May 2017, 7:30 pm

Well I'm shooting half inch groups with both 8208 and 2206h. I actually had reduce the load with 8208. Now running 27.3gr which is below the staring load in the ADI manual. I've ordered 1000 32gr Z max and need to get some new Norma or Noslar brass as I've already had a few neck splits with the Hornady brass.
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by bigfellascott » 22 May 2017, 10:41 am

Not sure it's a good idea to use loads less than the starting load recommended, just suss it out a little bit to make sure it's safe to do so (I'm sure there was a reason not too but can't recall what it was now) maybe send a email to ADI and see what they say.
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by happyhunter » 22 May 2017, 11:44 am

Cooper wrote:Well I'm shooting half inch groups with both 8208 and 2206h. I actually had reduce the load with 8208. Now running 27.3gr which is below the staring load in the ADI manual. I've ordered 1000 32gr Z max and need to get some new Norma or Noslar brass as I've already had a few neck splits with the Hornady brass.


I'm running Remington brass and Remington primers and 29.2 grains AR2206H for the 32 Zmax. It likes the compressed load.
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by bladeracer » 22 May 2017, 11:51 am

happyhunter wrote:I'm running Remington brass and Remington primers and 29.2 grains AR2206H for the 32 Zmax. It likes the compressed load.


I run the identical load but in Norma brass.
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by Cooper » 22 May 2017, 12:49 pm

Interesting that the compressed load works well with the 2206H. I just started in middle 27.5gr 2206H when I was struggling with Benchmark 8208. The groups went from an inch with the bench mark 8208 to half an in with the 2206H. I wait til I have new brass before I do any load development. I've also ordered a new thumb hole Boyds stock. As the Houge standard stock is pretty bad, it flexes when using the bipod.
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by southwest shooter » 23 May 2017, 2:45 pm

40gr vmax , Waste of time ! Throw them away and use 32gr zmax . Rabbits and foxes no drama .
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by Cooper » 26 May 2017, 10:21 pm

bigfellascott wrote:Not sure it's a good idea to use loads less than the starting load recommended, just suss it out a little bit to make sure it's safe to do so (I'm sure there was a reason not too but can't recall what it was now) maybe send a email to ADI and see what they say.


Yeah I'm only 0.2gr under the suggested starting load. So I wouldn't exactly call it reduced load. If think it's not wise to start below the starting load as it can actually cause higher pressure. Which is kinder the opposite to what you would think. Less powder less bang. Think it is more of an issue when reduced charges of slower burning powders are used.

Any I've bought some AR2219 to try. It has a faster burn rate compared to 2206H and benchmark 8208. I've also bought 1000 32 Zmax and my Boyds thumb hole stock has come in. I'll post some picks when I get it all together.
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by bigfellascott » 27 May 2017, 12:24 am

I look forward to seeing how it all goes mate, keep us posted.
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by Apollo » 27 May 2017, 1:54 am

Cooper wrote:
bigfellascott wrote:Not sure it's a good idea to use loads less than the starting load recommended, just suss it out a little bit to make sure it's safe to do so (I'm sure there was a reason not too but can't recall what it was now) maybe send a email to ADI and see what they say.


Yeah I'm only 0.2gr under the suggested starting load. So I wouldn't exactly call it reduced load. If think it's not wise to start below the starting load as it can actually cause higher pressure. Which is kinder the opposite to what you would think. Less powder less bang. Think it is more of an issue when reduced charges of slower burning powders are used.

Any I've bought some AR2219 to try. It has a faster burn rate compared to 2206H and benchmark 8208. I've also bought 1000 32 Zmax and my Boyds thumb hole stock has come in. I'll post some picks when I get it all together.


The higher pressure from less than suggested minimum loads can become a danger as the extra free space over the top of the powder gets into being a "flash over" or mini explosion and those pressures can become quite dangerous. In my mind reduced loads are done to reduce velocity without creating the dangerous situation of that void in the cartridge case, hence why very slow powders are used that will still fill the case to a safe level. Enjoy your experiment but don't reduce loads too far.

I do think you will have much better accuracy results if you increase your loads quite a bit towards maximum. In most calibres/catridges there are accuracy nodes as the barrel harmonics even out to the ideal release point for the bullet. Some maybe just one, some two and often there can be three accuracy nodes as the velocity increases. Hence load development in steps of ever increasing powder loads. One of those loads is far more consistent than the others and that is what most settle for. The .204R likes to push bullets fast so in my view you should be using much hotter loads than you are playing with...just my view over many experiments with many calibres.

In your shorter barrel, the idea of using a faster burn rate powder is to ensure you are getting a complete powder burn before the bullet exits the barrel muzzle and also hence give you higher velocity from a complete powder burn. What doesn't get burnt before the bullet exits is just a waste. We are talking about a controlled burn and the powder burns all the way down a barrel to create the gas pressure to push the bullet. It's not an explosion or burn in the cartridge case.

Each to their own though.
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by bladeracer » 27 May 2017, 2:53 am

Apollo wrote:I do think you will have much better accuracy results if you increase your loads quite a bit towards maximum. In most calibres/catridges there are accuracy nodes as the barrel harmonics even out to the ideal release point for the bullet. Some maybe just one, some two and often there can be three accuracy nodes as the velocity increases. Hence load development in steps of ever increasing powder loads. One of those loads is far more consistent than the others and that is what most settle for. The .204R likes to push bullets fast so in my view you should be using much hotter loads than you are playing with...just my view over many experiments with many calibres.


I've found the same, the .204 just gets more accurate the harder you push it.
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by Ben78 » 27 May 2017, 7:34 am

Apollo wrote:Enjoy your experiment but don't reduce loads too far.


Keep in mind that ADI say that 2206H is safe to 60% of maximum load, that would be 17.6 grains behind the 32g vmax in a 204. Another option, if you like playing around, is trail boss. When I had my 223 I had a load that was accurate with 8 grains and gave around 2200fps with 40g vmax. I called it my hornet load as it was basically the same really.
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by Cooper » 21 Mar 2018, 10:22 am

I tried some 40gr Berger projectiles in my 204. The Berger reloading I have is quite conservative with loads. Max is 26.3gr with 8208 benchmark. I started at 25gr 8208. The manual stats the 1-12 twist is ok for the 40gr projectiles. However the Berger box says the optimum twist is 1-10.

The Berger 40 grain weren't as bad as the 40gr Vmax but aren't fully stabilising as the holes in target are a bit off. I'll try pushing then a bit faster and see what happens. Might also try the 39gr Sierras. Otherwise it is just the 32 Zmax for my 204
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by southwest shooter » 21 Mar 2018, 10:27 am

Cooper wrote:I tried some 40gr Berger projectiles in my 204. The Berger reloading I have is quite conservative with loads. Max is 26.3gr with 8208 benchmark. I started at 25gr 8208. The manual stats the 1-12 twist is ok for the 40gr projectiles. However the Berger box says the optimum twist is 1-10.

The Berger 40 grain weren't as bad as the 40gr Vmax but aren't fully stabilising as the holes in target are a bit off. I'll try pushing then a bit faster and see what happens. Might also try the 39gr Sierras. Otherwise it is just the 32 Zmax for my 204

Stick with the 32g z max , never had a fox complain yet ! 39g blitzkings go great but to pricey for me .
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by bigfellascott » 21 Mar 2018, 4:30 pm

Yeah the 32s or 39s generally shoot well so would be a good option I think the 30gn Bergerac shoot well too or it might be 35gn Bergerac anyway suss them out too.
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by Cooper » 21 Mar 2018, 6:50 pm

bigfellascott wrote:Yeah the 32s or 39s generally shoot well so would be a good option I think the 30gn Bergerac shoot well too or it might be 35gn Bergerac anyway suss them out too.


Yeah I got some of the 35s when I got the 40s. They might have done 30s at some stage. The 35s shoot fine with my 32 Zmax load. Only shot 3. Was mainly interested what the 40s would do.
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by Ballisticdog » 23 Mar 2020, 12:43 pm

A late response to an old post, but have to say the 40gn V-Max is a superb projectile from my Tikka T3X Super Varmint Stainless. I started with the low load from ADI using the AR2206H powder (26 grains) and worked up to the "maximum" load of 27.7 grains. My chrono came nowhere near what the book velocity was. But I could not see where my slightly shorter barrel would be making so much difference (200fps). I use a Magnetospeed chrono so muzzle velocity should be pretty close to correct. I made a full pressure sign examination of my brass and found no signs of excessive pressure so I increased my powder charge in 3/10ths of a grain increments until I saw a slight extractor mark on the base of the case. This did not occur until I had reached 29.9 grains of 2206H (very compressed load) and a muzzle velocity of 3,845fps. Accuracy from the beginning was acceptable but not exceptional at the lower velocities, groups began to tighten considerably with the smallest 5 shot group being 9mm at 100yd. being from the 28.6 grain load with MV 3,760fps. then open out again as the MV increased. The 28.6 grains of 2206H show no obvious pressure signs in this rifle but they did in a friends Tikka, so the same load does not suit all rifles/chambers/throats. While I have the floor I would like to add that I have found the best all round projectile in my rifle is the 39gn Speer TNT FBHP. I use the same powder and grains of it with only an average of 20fps difference and the accuracy is outstanding with exceptional results on wild dogs. An added advantage is that both the 40gn Hornady and the 39gn Speer have the same point of impact right out to 300yd and only 50mm different at 548yd. I have not had the opportunity to compare the results on wild dogs beyond 300yds. but the Speer does seem to create a bit more damage closer to the entry point than the V-Max, but the wild dogs do not know the difference. It is a difficult thing to give advice to someone with your problem as many factors enter the equation. Bullet weight, twist rate, barrel length, velocity, seating depth (distance to lands), powder, primer all come into play. Add to that the differences in chamber from rifle to rifle even from the same manufacturer and I am sure you can see where it goes. My advice is that you try different projectiles/powders/velocities in your particular rifle until you find the sweet spot. Sometimes we are lucky and find the sweet spot right off other times we have to hunt around for it.
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by in2anity » 24 Mar 2020, 11:05 am

I've stabilized 40gr pills out of a 1:12 with AR2219. Not peak accuracy, but certainly not keyholing like above. However these days I just stick to AR2206H and the 32-grainers. Very capable, even on the 400m mound. Probably beyond (never tried). More accurate than I am, even from slung prone.
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by Bello » 24 Jul 2023, 1:33 pm

Took the new guy (Tikka 204 stainless hunter), for a range day.
I sold my Sako VLS (Varmint laminated stainless) in 204 Ruger some years ago. I wasn't using it, so out it went.

Lately my young fella has been nagging me about a 204.
So I bit the bullet and bought a second hand Tikka from Used guns, just so he can have some fun.
Took it to the range for a work out with some old 204 ammo I had loaded for my Sako.

Had a fun morning.
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Re: 204 ruger. 40gr Vmax problem.

Post by animalpest » 24 Jul 2023, 2:37 pm

Unfortunately the CoP for kangaroo shooting lists the 40gr bullet for use in the .204. If not roo shooting, then shoot the bullet that suits you best.
Loading 8208 with the 35gr suits the Sako. The Sierra 39gr will normally shoot very well in most rifles.
The primer does not need to be a magnum. If you see "magnum" on the cartridge, that doesnt mean much.
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