Old Knowledge: how relevant or accurate today?

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

Old Knowledge: how relevant or accurate today?

Post by Gwion » 09 Jun 2017, 4:48 pm

Not mentioning any names or places but i have been chatting with a number of old (no, not older, OLD) shooters. Now, these guys have a life time of experience and can shoot like stink but when the subject turns to reloading they have some pretty fixed and seemingly limited ideas. I just want to run some of it past you people for opinions.

To start, there seems to be no acknowledgement that an individual rifle has it's own harmonic characteristics and they insist on certain formulas of x# of grains of a certain powder for a certain bullet in a certain length barrel. On the weekend, one guy was telling me "always put 46gn of ###" and "these lapua cases aren't as good as the winchesters because they don't shoot as well with the same load" (paraphrasing). I have tried opening a conversation about individual load development for a particular rifle but am met with shaking heads and blank looks. The same bloke asked me what i had loaded in my rifle. I told him and he replied, "not enough!". I responded that i had a different caliber and bullet weight but he didn't get it. I mean, this load shoots 0.3MOA every time i test it for a group (not over an extended string adjusting for bull but in a quick string in the same patch of wind shooting purely for group size). The same guy insists that one of his rifles just has a bad barrel because it doesn't shoot as straight as his other rifle and that it could take 2000 rounds to "come good". Again, blank stares when i mention load development for the rifle.

Another guy, who takes the self appointed role of club guru, advises younger shooters to arbitrarily add another grain to the charge is the load isn't performing as desired. He also thinks he needs a new barrel (ok, maybe he does) for one of his rifles but doesn't even consider tweeking his load or re-seating his bullets out further.

Again, these guys have a heap of target shooting experience and can shoot and read wind very well but it concerns me that younger shooters are being given advice that seems rudimentary and unproductive for their improvement in the sport. It must just lead to frustration and wasting good components. Not blowing my horn but i can generally spend around 50 rounds to develop a load that shoots under 0.5MOA in my rifles.

I guess i'm looking for advice as to how to introduce the concept of individual load development without coming across as the "young" upstart. It's hard to discuss this stuff with people who have been shooting longer than me but who are wasting time, money and energy while advising younger shooters to do the same. One bloke about my age with a very nice rifle has never done any load development and i have watched his frustration in following this kind of advice over the last couple of years. I've offered him to come over to do some load testing but it is yet to happen.

Any thoughts?
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Re: Old Knowledge: how relevant or accurate today?

Post by Daddybang » 09 Jun 2017, 5:06 pm

Unfortunately gwion people get"stuck" in their ways and you will not change their minds. They tend to discard any new ideas and information because what they do works for them and "always has". As for the younger people most of the time you can only try to show them a better way some will accept the advice some won't don't let it stress you out. :drinks:
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Re: Old Knowledge: how relevant or accurate today?

Post by Gwion » 09 Jun 2017, 6:39 pm

SG, are you suggesting that a load doesn't need to be tuned to the rifle over the period of the barrel life or that one load should work on a variety of rifles depending only on cartridge and barrel length?
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Re: Old Knowledge: how relevant or accurate today?

Post by Supaduke » 09 Jun 2017, 6:50 pm

Being old does not guarantee wisdom. Young dummies just grow up to be old dummies.

Plus a lot of older fellas fall into the thought process of 'anything new is sh1t'. Be it music, fashion, technology etc.

Every generation thinks the next one is soft and stupid.

If they don't want to enter into any sort of conversation about different techniques , don't waste your effort, just nod and smile. Truly wise men never stop learning.

Same as car guys, I like old cars as much as the next guy but when blokes stubbornly refuse to concede that on a technical basis a modern car poo's on their classic from a great height in safety, efficiency, handling etc I just shrug.

I have met plenty of older gentlemen that are truly wise. I have also met quite a few that are nothing short of a d1ckhead. Just state your case, if they are open to other ideas , good. If not , don't waste your breath.
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Re: Old Knowledge: how relevant or accurate today?

Post by Wm.Traynor » 09 Jun 2017, 7:21 pm

Reminds me of when I left College after an Agricultural education. The old Digger I worked for wasn't having any of it. As Supaduke says, "don't waste your breath". You aren't responsible for them so save your strength :)
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Re: Old Knowledge: how relevant or accurate today?

Post by Strikey » 09 Jun 2017, 7:31 pm

Gwion, in my experience shooting Fullbore with the OLD blokes I learnt not to ask about reloading, they have probably been around shooting most of their lives but most are newbies to the black art of reloading and tuning a load to suit different rifles, barrels, chambers, projectiles,etc,etc. These old blokes mostly started Fullbore shooting when they were only allowed to use military ammo for the 303 rifles of the day and then the 7•62x51, if they all had the one type of ammo you possibly had to shoot the barrel in. You learn an awful lot on reading conditions from them but not reloading and some of the loads I have heard being used is a credit to the strength of their rifles actions :thumbsup:
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Re: Old Knowledge: how relevant or accurate today?

Post by Tiger650 » 09 Jun 2017, 7:48 pm

Strikey wrote:Gwion, in my experience shooting Fullbore with the OLD blokes I learnt not to ask about reloading, they have probably been around shooting most of their lives but most are newbies to the black art of reloading and tuning a load to suit different rifles, barrels, chambers, projectiles,etc,etc. These old blokes mostly started Fullbore shooting when they were only allowed to use military ammo for the 303 rifles of the day and then the 7•62x51, if they all had the one type of ammo you possibly had to shoot the barrel in. You learn an awful lot on reading conditions from them but not reloading and some of the loads I have heard being used is a credit to the strength of their rifles actions :thumbsup:


Well said.
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Re: Old Knowledge: how relevant or accurate today?

Post by Gwion » 09 Jun 2017, 11:47 pm

Strikey wrote:Gwion, in my experience shooting Fullbore with the OLD blokes I learnt not to ask about reloading, they have probably been around shooting most of their lives but most are newbies to the black art of reloading and tuning a load to suit different rifles, barrels, chambers, projectiles,etc,etc. These old blokes mostly started Fullbore shooting when they were only allowed to use military ammo for the 303 rifles of the day and then the 7•62x51, if they all had the one type of ammo you possibly had to shoot the barrel in. You learn an awful lot on reading conditions from them but not reloading and some of the loads I have heard being used is a credit to the strength of their rifles actions :thumbsup:


Absolutely. Like the 100 Lapua 308 cases I have waiting to be smelted for knife baulsters because that mate with the custom rifle only got 5-6 loads out of them before the primer pockets started loosening up! Must have been when he was told to change to 2206h from 2208 without any mention of reworking the load.

Just pick a powder and a random charge and away you go...... apparently. :problem:
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Re: Old Knowledge: how relevant or accurate today?

Post by Oldbloke » 10 Jun 2017, 1:57 pm

"Being old does not guarantee wisdom. Young dummies just grow up to be old dummies."
TRUE

"Truly wise men never stop learning."
TRUE AGAIN.

AND TO TOP IT OFF.
FIGJAM. :lol:
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Re: Old Knowledge: how relevant or accurate today?

Post by aam » 10 Jun 2017, 5:58 pm

Strikey wrote:Gwion, in my experience shooting Fullbore with the OLD blokes I learnt not to ask about reloading, they have probably been around shooting most of their lives but most are newbies to the black art of reloading and tuning a load to suit different rifles, barrels, chambers, projectiles,etc,etc. These old blokes mostly started Fullbore shooting when they were only allowed to use military ammo for the 303 rifles of the day and then the 7•62x51, if they all had the one type of ammo you possibly had to shoot the barrel in. You learn an awful lot on reading conditions from them but not reloading and some of the loads I have heard being used is a credit to the strength of their rifles actions :thumbsup:


This^^^^^^^
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Re: Old Knowledge: how relevant or accurate today?

Post by Gwion » 11 Jun 2017, 7:04 pm

Oldbloke wrote:"Being old does not guarantee wisdom. Young dummies just grow up to be old dummies."
TRUE

"Truly wise men never stop learning."
TRUE AGAIN.

AND TO TOP IT OFF.
FIGJAM. :lol:


There is definitely a bit of that going on with one of these guys but the other one is actually quite modest about his shooting abilities. They are both closer to 90 than to 80, i think.

I'm not wanting to change their minds, just be able to get across to the younger guys so they don't waste time, ammo and money and get disheartened and frustrated.
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Re: Old Knowledge: how relevant or accurate today?

Post by Supaduke » 11 Jun 2017, 8:36 pm

Proof is in the pudding. Demonstrate tighter groups and they will want to know how. Talk to the younger blokes directly. Rather than be disparaging about the old fellas just explain there are more ways to skin a cat. Most younger shooters are very open to ideas on how to shoot better. Simply point out "well this is how 'I' do it". Explain the methodology behind your methods and I'm sure they will get on board.
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Re: Old Knowledge: how relevant or accurate today?

Post by straightshooter » 13 Jun 2017, 8:48 am

Although in general I agree with Supaduke's earlier post in this thread, I would have to add that much advice and many so called 'new ideas' are quite useless and don't deliver what is claimed. They are generally derived from advertising hype and not from any kind of systematic analysis or the use of 'scientific method'.
It is one of those sad facts of life that in order to be able to sift the good advice from the useless or bad advice you need to either be sufficiently knowledgeable so that you probably didn't need the advice in the first place or have the ability to think analytically.
If you are an honest (with yourself) inquisitive thinking person you will soon establish what 'works' and what in reality is a wasteful 'ritual'.
There used to be a science show on TV in the 60's with Prof Julius Sumner Miller whose catch phrase was 'why is it so'.
Nothing like that exists these days. So you will just have to rely on somebody telling you what one of the Kardashian's back side is up to this week.
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Re: Old Knowledge: how relevant or accurate today?

Post by Gwion » 13 Jun 2017, 10:35 am

While you may have a point, SS, I hardly think the theory of individual rifles having their own harmonic signature or other unique qualities due to tolerances in machining and metallurgy falls in this category. If it did, all rifle of the same make and model would shoot the exactly the same with the same ammunition and there would be no advantage to tuning a load to your rifle. I think most agree that most rifles shoot best with a tuned load. Yes, a perfectly build rifle will be less fussy but a barrel isn't bad just because it won't shoot well with what one person considers a standard load. With a little tweeting, that rifle/barrel may shoot very well indeed.
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