6.5 Creedmoor loads

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6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by Sydneywizard » 30 Jul 2017, 4:39 pm

Hi all,

I am looking to reload Nosler Custom Competition 123 gr projectile using AR2206H for 6.5 Creedmoor.

The ADI handbook does not list 123 gr and the next closest bullet listed is 130 gr. The starting load listed for that bullet is 30.1 gr and the max load is 33.8 gr.

Nosler's load data for their 123 gr Custom Competition projectile using IMR 4895 (which is apparently an equivalent powder) is, starting load 35 gr and the max load is 39 gr.

That's a very big difference for an equivalent powder.

Anyone got any ideas on a safe starting load using AR2206H? I'm also open to trying AR2208 if anyone has any real world experience with that powder for a 6.5 CM.
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by bladeracer » 30 Jul 2017, 5:02 pm

Sydneywizard wrote:Hi all,

I am looking to reload Nosler Custom Competition 123 gr projectile using AR2206H for 6.5 Creedmoor.

The ADI handbook does not list 123 gr and the next closest bullet listed is 130 gr. The starting load listed for that bullet is 30.1 gr and the max load is 33.8 gr.

Nosler's load data for their 123 gr Custom Competition projectile using IMR 4895 (which is apparently an equivalent powder) is, starting load 35 gr and the max load is 39 gr.

That's a very big difference for an equivalent powder.

Anyone got any ideas on a safe starting load using AR2206H? I'm also open to trying AR2208 if anyone has any real world experience with that powder for a 6.5 CM.


Don't have any real-world experience with the 6.5mm Creedmoor, but I am used to seeing discrepancies in ADI's numbers :-)
They list the 120gn at 34.0-37.4gn and the 130gn at 30.1-33.8gn of AR2206H.
I would load five up at about 35.5gn to 36.0gn and work up to pressure signs.

AR2209 looks like a good choice in the 6.5mm Creedmore - compressed loads in almost all bullet weights. You can't fill a case better than that. But 20% more expensive to run than AR2206H.
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by Sydneywizard » 30 Jul 2017, 6:15 pm

Thanks Bladeracer but I have been using AR2209 and the results are very unimpressive. They shoot <1 MOA at 50-100 m but once I get out to +200 m, they started spraying around a bit. When I first got the CM, I used the AR2206H as that was all I had on hand and the results were under 1 MOA up to 200 m, but then I read that AR2209 (H4350) was "the go" and ever since then, I have been trying to make it work.

In the meantime, I have checked that scope, rings, and base plates are not the culprit. All that left is to swap out that Hogue stock for a GRS but that won't happen for a few weeks. So, I'm going back to what worked originally for me.

Hopefully, it's not a dud rifle.
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by bladeracer » 30 Jul 2017, 7:02 pm

Sydneywizard wrote:Thanks Bladeracer but I have been using AR2209 and the results are very unimpressive. They shoot <1 MOA at 50-100 m but once I get out to +200 m, they started spraying around a bit. When I first got the CM, I used the AR2206H as that was all I had on hand and the results were under 1 MOA up to 200 m, but then I read that AR2209 (H4350) was "the go" and ever since then, I have been trying to make it work.

In the meantime, I have checked that scope, rings, and base plates are not the culprit. All that left is to swap out that Hogue stock for a GRS but that won't happen for a few weeks. So, I'm going back to what worked originally for me.

Hopefully, it's not a dud rifle.


I'm a fan of AR2206H due to its versatility, but if I were building a long-range precision rifle I'd try a few different powders and work with the most consistent.
I'm assuming you shoot other rifles out past 200m without the spraying effect?
Do all bullets get this same result?
The 140gn has better BC, and I noticed that Nosler only offers the 140gn in their Match ammo range.
Is there a reason you're using the 123gn bullet?
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by Gwion » 30 Jul 2017, 7:05 pm

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/10/1 ... -accuracy/

According to the guys who came up with the Houston Warehouse experiement, their findings from 6 years of accuracy testing was that there is no such thing as a rifle that shoots well to 100yds but "opens up" after that, or vice versa. If it shoots tight at 100 then it will shoot just as tight at 200, all things being equal.

Things that you could look at are your shooting technique and also reloading technique. I suspect that if your bullet run-out/concentricity is off then the issue my compound the further out you shoot but i am a firm believer that most people's issue with accuracy at range is their own shooting technique; but then, none of us really want to admit that, do we! :lol:

Not having a go, just food for thought.
A GRS stock would be nice. I am saving for one my self. :thumbsup: My experience with hogue stocks is that they suck arse for anything but blasting pests under 150m you can bed & stabilise them but if you can save for a better stock then do so!
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by Chronos » 30 Jul 2017, 7:43 pm

Gwion wrote:http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/10/18/secrets-of-the-houston-warehouse-lessons-in-extreme-rifle-accuracy/

According to the guys who came up with the Houston Warehouse experiement, their findings from 6 years of accuracy testing was that there is no such thing as a rifle that shoots well to 100yds but "opens up" after that, or vice versa. If it shoots tight at 100 then it will shoot just as tight at 200, all things being equal.

Things that you could look at are your shooting technique and also reloading technique. I suspect that if your bullet run-out/concentricity is off then the issue my compound the further out you shoot but i am a firm believer that most people's issue with accuracy at range is their own shooting technique; but then, none of us really want to admit that, do we! :lol:

Not having a go, just food for thought.
A GRS stock would be nice. I am saving for one my self. :thumbsup: My experience with hogue stocks is that they suck arse for anything but blasting pests under 150m you can bed & stabilise them but if you can save for a better stock then do so!



This.

For the record I know a guy who's rifle is more accurate at 600m than 300m :allegedly:

:lol:

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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by Sydneywizard » 30 Jul 2017, 9:07 pm

Yes, I normally shoot the 140 gr but I have had some difficulty sourcing them regularly and I came across some cheap lots of 123 gr, so I thought it might be a good idea to develop some data on it. I also had the same issue with the 140 gr from the word go.

No question that I'm no Jerry Miculek but I'd like to think that I'm no flog either. I do shoot every week with my CZ 452 to keep working on my technique as that's the one skill that needs constant practice. My 223 with the same Hogue stock shoots MOA or better out to 200 m, so using that as a benchmark, I can vaguely assume that the CM should perform equally well in my hands. Is there room for improvement? Of course there is. Till the day I stop shooting, it will be a work in progress.

Yes, I did read that report on PR Blog some time ago and the conclusions were interesting, which make my issue even more puzzling to me.

I have also looked at my reloading technique and I have to say that I am quite fastidious with the quality of my output. I never reload more than 20 cartridges at one session, just so I don't get bored or distracted and I can concentrate on producing quality ammo. I have even gone back to reloading to SAAMI specs, to eliminate any variables in my reloads. I might get a box of factory ammo and use that to get some sort of a benchmark.

I do appreciate the "what about this" and "what about that" but you can see that this not just one bad session out on the range but over a fair number of sessions and over a moderate period of time. It's just very frustrating not getting the results one expects.
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by Gwion » 30 Jul 2017, 9:24 pm

Parallax, eye relief, cheek weld.

All more likely to cause issues with precision at range than a load that will shoot sub moa at 100. Also things that could be different than that on your 223rem, even with the same stock. Even a slight issue with cant on your scope and slight variations in cheek weld would cause compounded 'spraying' at range.
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by bladeracer » 30 Jul 2017, 9:24 pm

Sydneywizard wrote:Yes, I normally shoot the 140 gr but I have had some difficulty sourcing them regularly and I came across some cheap lots of 123 gr, so I thought it might be a good idea to develop some data on it. I also had the same issue with the 140 gr from the word go.

No question that I'm no Jerry Miculek but I'd like to think that I'm no flog either. I do shoot every week with my CZ 452 to keep working on my technique as that's the one skill that needs constant practice. My 223 with the same Hogue stock shoots MOA or better out to 200 m, so using that as a benchmark, I can vaguely assume that the CM should perform equally well in my hands. Is there room for improvement? Of course there is. Till the day I stop shooting, it will be a work in progress.

Yes, I did read that report on PR Blog some time ago and the conclusions were interesting, which make my issue even more puzzling to me.

I have also looked at my reloading technique and I have to say that I am quite fastidious with the quality of my output. I never reload more than 20 cartridges at one session, just so I don't get bored or distracted and I can concentrate on producing quality ammo. I have even gone back to reloading to SAAMI specs, to eliminate any variables in my reloads. I might get a box of factory ammo and use that to get some sort of a benchmark.

I do appreciate the "what about this" and "what about that" but you can see that this not just one bad session out on the range but over a fair number of sessions and over a moderate period of time. It's just very frustrating not getting the results one expects.


I can certainly understand the frustration.
What do you mean you're loading to SAAMI specs? SAAMI only specifies cartridge dimensions.
Factory ammo might help, or having somebody else try your rifle to see if they get different results.
Are you ensuring cant is controlled? Cant has magnified effects at longer ranges.
Are you dialing the scope into the range and aiming at the reticle or are you holding over? If the bullets are not hitting your reticle then cant effects will also be magnified.
Do you have photos of the groups that might help diagnose an issue?
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by bladeracer » 30 Jul 2017, 9:42 pm

I just had a look through some sites I order from and none have the 140gn CC unfortunately.
I like Nosler but consider them more expensive than they should be.
Have you tried other bullets at all?
Hornady ELD-M, Sierra SMK/TMK, Berger VLD/Hybrid Target maybe?
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by Cooper » 31 Jul 2017, 9:09 am

Interested in the 6.5 Creedmoor. Have heard a lot of people run (H350) ar2209.
I think ar2206H definaltely would be better with lighter projectiles. Will be watching with interest.
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by in2anity » 31 Jul 2017, 9:30 pm

Gwion wrote:http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/10/18/secrets-of-the-houston-warehouse-lessons-in-extreme-rifle-accuracy/

According to the guys who came up with the Houston Warehouse experiement, their findings from 6 years of accuracy testing was that there is no such thing as a rifle that shoots well to 100yds but "opens up" after that, or vice versa. If it shoots tight at 100 then it will shoot just as tight at 200, all things being equal.

Things that you could look at are your shooting technique and also reloading technique. I suspect that if your bullet run-out/concentricity is off then the issue my compound the further out you shoot but i am a firm believer that most people's issue with accuracy at range is their own shooting technique; but then, none of us really want to admit that, do we! :lol:

Not having a go, just food for thought.
A GRS stock would be nice. I am saving for one my self. :thumbsup: My experience with hogue stocks is that they suck arse for anything but blasting pests under 150m you can bed & stabilise them but if you can save for a better stock then do so!


Except for stability - a slow, lower weight, low BC projectile can go to crap in a hurry once it loses too much speed. Granted this is unlikely the case for standard 6.5 loads. I'd be carefully examining your targets at those longer ranges OP for any signs of instability - if it's keyholing then you maybe on to something.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by Gwion » 01 Aug 2017, 9:27 am

If it is loosing stability at 200yds then something is drastically wrong. For something like the 6.5Creed, 200yds is spitting distance. My 223 with 50gn bullets can print a 1" group at 200 so the light bullet loosing stability is highly doubtful. I'd be looking closely at my shooting technique, checking for scope cant, rifle cant, parallax settings, scope set up to minimise parallax and checking bullet concentricity. The only way I can think a bullet would be unstable at 200 if if it wasn't being pushed fast enough, was in too slow a twist rate or was way out of concentricity. Sure, another powder might give more consistent velocities but shooting sub moa at 100 but larger at 200 is not a powder problem, I reckon it's either your aim, your shot release or the bullet is entering the rifling side ways or all of the above.
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by Gamerancher » 01 Aug 2017, 4:03 pm

My "real world" experience with the 6.5 Creedmoor has led me to use the following loads for high power metallic silhouette.
I use 40 grains of 2209 behind a 140gr Hornady ELD match bullet. 1 in 7.5" twist rate, 24" barrel. Prints 3" groups on 500m rams.
I use 36gr of 2206H behind 108gr Lapua Scenars for my 200, 300 and 385m targets. sub 1/2" @ 100m. Holds up all the way out.

Dave Emory from Hornady, (one of the blokes who came up with the 6.5 Creedmoor) recommends a maximum load of 39.2 gr of Varget, ( ADI 2208 ) or a maximum of 43.9 gr of H4350, ( ADI 2209 ) behind the 123gr bullet.
Hornady uses H4350, ( ADI 2209) for its match grade ammo.
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by Strikey » 01 Aug 2017, 9:05 pm

Gamerancher wrote:My "real world" experience with the 6.5 Creedmoor has led me to use the following loads for high power metallic silhouette.
I use 40 grains of 2209 behind a 140gr Hornady ELD match bullet. 1 in 7.5" twist rate, 24" barrel. Prints 3" groups on 500m rams.
I use 36gr of 2206H behind 108gr Lapua Scenars for my 200, 300 and 385m targets. sub 1/2" @ 100m. Holds up all the way out.

Dave Emory from Hornady, (one of the blokes who came up with the 6.5 Creedmoor) recommends a maximum load of 39.2 gr of Varget, ( ADI 2208 ) or a maximum of 43.9 gr of H4350, ( ADI 2209 ) behind the 123gr bullet.
Hornady uses H4350, ( ADI 2209) for its match grade ammo.


Mate have ya got a man bun like all the other Creedmoor trendies,lol :sarcasm: :allegedly:
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by Gwion » 02 Aug 2017, 12:18 am

Oi! What have you got against man buns! :problem:

Actually, mines more like a japanese top knot! :lol:
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by Gamerancher » 02 Aug 2017, 7:49 am

G'day Strikey, no, I don't have the "man-bun" and I drink flat white coffee not latte!
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by in2anity » 02 Aug 2017, 11:52 am

Crew cut and international roast for me...
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by JimTom » 07 Aug 2018, 5:39 pm

Anyone having any success with the 143gn ELD X projectiles?
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by Flyer » 18 Aug 2018, 12:41 pm

I will let you know at some point, as I haven't started loading my 143s yet. I'm starting with 123gr Lapua Scenars, which I've loaded and will test (hopefully) tomorrow. The Scenars will be my offhand target load out to 200m, so I'm not so much fussed about velocity as accuracy. I've loaded them from 42.8 to 44.8gr of 2209 in .4gr increments.

The 143 ELD Xs will be my long-range target and hunting load and I plan to load them up to, or around, 42gr of 2209. from the research I've done, the 143s don't mind a jump. Mine will be about .070" off the lands at 2.860". My 123 Scenars are .015" off the lands at 2.850". Both are mag length in my Sako A7.
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by JimTom » 18 Aug 2018, 1:09 pm

Very interested in the results mate
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by Flyer » 26 Aug 2018, 11:10 pm

Here you go mate. I tried the 143gr ELD-X in my 24.4" Sako A7 Creedmoor today and had best results with 41.8gr of 2209. That was with Lapua brass and CCI BR4 primers. Second shot was a called flier, so I'll probably go back and revist 41.4, 41.6 and 41.8. 42.2 started to spread. No pressure signs with any of these loads, and they were all sub-MOA apart from the 42.2 load.

Incidentally, Hornady's published load with the 140gr A-max is 41.5gr of 2209, so they were obviously on the money.

IMG_0387.jpg
IMG_0387.jpg (369.81 KiB) Viewed 8785 times


Last week I also tried the 123gr Lapua Scenars and had my best group with 43.2gr of 2209. All 4-shot groups.

IMG_0359.JPG
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by JimTom » 27 Aug 2018, 7:04 am

Thanks for going to the effort of showing us your results. Much appreciated mate.
I have everything ready to start except the rifle. Goodness knows how long it will be until that turns up. I have the 143ELD X as well, and the 123 SST to try.
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by Flyer » 27 Aug 2018, 2:20 pm

Well, if you have your heart set on a Lithgow, I do hope it's not too long for your sake. In any case, it seems 41.5gr of 2209 - or thereabouts - is the magic number for the Creedmoor, as a lot of the accuracy loads I've seen online appear to be around this point. Most have been in the 41-42 range, so that's what I used as my starting point.
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by JimTom » 27 Aug 2018, 6:15 pm

Yep I will start some just shy of that and work up myself. Have been thinking of ditching the Lithgow and getting a Tikka instead.
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by Flyer » 28 Aug 2018, 4:56 pm

TAC A1? Noice! Can't see how you could go wrong with that.
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by Oryx Pit » 28 Aug 2018, 5:08 pm

Not in CM, but maybe interesting.
I've had good success with the 143g ELD-X out of the 260 rem.
2209 44.5g (HOT) Avg 2800 f/s (ES16) Lapua brass with fed primers. Under 0.6 inch groups at 100 yards.
In the field good expansion and retention in red deer.
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by JimTom » 28 Aug 2018, 7:31 pm

Thanks mate, good info.
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by JimTom » 29 Aug 2018, 4:17 pm

Flyer wrote:TAC A1? Noice! Can't see how you could go wrong with that.


Nah mate not into the tactical chassis rifles. Was thinking more along the lines of the CTR.
Nothin wrong with the Tac of course, just not for me.
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Re: 6.5 Creedmoor loads

Post by Flyer » 30 Aug 2018, 2:04 am

Well clearly I'm biased, but when I went looking for a 6.5CM, the Sako A7 Roughtech Pro ticked a lot of boxes for the same price or cheaper than a CTR. It has a three-lug bolt, short action, top-load feeding, stainless fluted 24.4" barrel and an alloy bedding block system that, IMO, is superior to the Sako 85 and Tikka bedding systems. The textured synthetic stock is nicer and it has an alloy X-frame running through it, so is more rigid than the Tikka and about 200g lighter than the equivalent 24" CTR. It also has a 5-shot MOA guarantee.

I know the A7 has a reputation for being a "Tikka with a Sako badge", but the Roughtech series are another beast compared to the base model A7s that don't have the same alloy frame, bedding system and textured stock finish.The Roughtech Range is another step above but is heavier - albeit with a heavy fluted 26" barrel.

I think they're worth the extra money over the Tikka, but that's my opinion. I do own a couple of Sako 85s and rate my A7 up there with them.

Downsides? They're a push-feed, unlike the Sako 85 controlled round feed (which I prefer). 3-shot mag can be limiting depending on what you want to use it for. The trigger housing, mag and bolt shroud are plastic, but I don't really notice them. I always top-load the mag, so rarely take it out. There's a mob here in WA that make stainless parts for the A7, as well as titanium action screws: https://www.atlasworxs.com/collections/sako-a7

Anyway, something to think about. If you can get to a gun shop and handle them, you might be pleasantly surprised how well balanced the A7 is. That's what sold me. Good luck!
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