6.5 creedmoor 140 gr loads max ar2209?

[Cooper]

So I have jump on the 6.5 creedmoor bandwagon.

Bought a Howa 6.5 creedmoor in a GRS stock with 26 inch barrel.

Only have put 30 or so shots through it do far. But have experienced my first stiff bolt lift with a just on maximum charge of Ar2209 with a 140gr projectile.

I started at 40gr of ar2209 for just under 2700fps with a 140gr SST. Then jumped to 41gr AR2209 in a fire formed case.

Not sure if have reached the max or something else is going on? I guess I'll be happy with around 2700fps. But I was hoping for a bit more out of a 26inch barrel? Should I full lenght size brass after the stiff bolt lift? Only 2 of the rounds were quite stiff out of the 6 with the max charge that I fired. Maybe the Hornady brass is a bit inconsistent?

[Gamerancher]

Was there any other pressure signs? Flattened , cratered primer for instance? Do the cases that were involved rechamber? Perhaps micing those cases against the others that weren't stiff, see if there is any difference. Weigh the cases, if those that gave trouble are significantly heavier than the rest it would indicate thicker brass. That translates to less room internally, ( volume ) and this results in higher chamber pressure compared to another case that has higher volume firing the same powder charge.
I use a 40gr load of 2209 behind the 140 ELD in mine for the 500m rams in metallic silhouette with no pressure problems and excellent accuracy. My rifle is built on a Winchester Model 70 action, 1-7.5 twist Tobler stainless barrel 24" long. A mate uses 41gr of 2209 behind the sierra 142gr matchkings for the same and has reported no pressure problems in his rifle. His is built on the Howa action but running a Tobler 1-8 twist stainless barrel.

What application is the rifle for? Target or hunting? Why do you want more than 2700f/s? That is the published expected velocity out of a maximum load for the 140gr bullet.

[Cooper]

I had run 40gr of AR2209 with no apparent signs of pressure. The brass that had the tight bolt lift seemed to rechamber OK. Bolt lift was a little firm. I am thinking that maybe the brass is a little inconsistent and or I need to adjust C.O.L out further which might reduce pressure or stick with a charge around 40gr. Was just chasing 2700fps for long range hunting if I could get there. Might have to stick with around 2650fps.

[Apollo]

Have you looked at the ADI (Hodgdon) reloading data to see where your powder charge relates to maximum.. ??

I don't own nor have ever shot a 6.5 Creedmoor, the closest I come is three rifles chambered 6.5x47 Lapua which is a "High Pressure" case calibre and easily exceeds 2,800 fps velocity with 140gr 6.5mm bullets yet alone lighter like 130gr or even better 123gr. Without being near a maximum case load of powder.

My thoughts are why are you trying to be at 2,700fps. Is it just that you believe the highest possible velocity is better, more accurate or what. I think I would be looking for the most accurate / consistent load even if it was well down on velocity. Thinking knock down power then in my view more accurate placement of shots on a critter are better than pushing something that's not accurate, pushing cases to the limit and the rifle action / bolt.

Perhaps better quality cases like Lapua, yes they are expensive but they will most likely last many times longer than inferior run of the mill cases. Case to case the quality is very high so you could discount that factor. They will most likely handle the near maximum loads far better if that's what floats your boat.

There are lots of possibles but just me I don't like any case load that is near maximum for any number of reasons.

[Cooper]

The ADI manual stats maximum at 40gr of AR2209. Also says 40gr is compressed which it was not in my Hornady brass? Hornady says 40.9gr and Nick Harvey says 41.0gr

So I knew I was getting close to maximum or above it. I was just hoping the 26inch would give me a bit of extra velocity. If this is not the case. So be it. I was considering going Lapua brass but it seems to be out of stock at most places. So I'll stick with the Hornady brass at this stage. But I will check for variation in cases.

I don't think I am one of those guys that has to have a maximum load. Chasing even last bit of velocity. I just had an idea of where I thought I should be and thought I was a bit under what it should be. I was obliviously closer to maximum than I thought. All good, first time I have experienced it for myself thats all.

Thanks for the input.

[Apollo]

You got me interested in this calibre so I did a little reading. First going back to an old story on Accurate Shooter of the comparison between 260 Remington, 6.5 Creedmoor and the 6.5x47 Lapua.

I also looked up the data in my Berger Reloading Manual. Now, most of the Berger Data is very conservative BUT they say for the 140gr H4350 (AR2209) at 40.7gr, 2630fps and 96% fill ratio. Curious figures but we don't know where Berger get their data from.

Also interesting is I think the Hornady Cases use large Rifle Primers where the Lapua uses Small Rifle Primers unless the info I found is incorrect about the Hornady Cases. Didn't look up much on the Norma Cases other than wow, they are expensive.

Back to the hard / stiffer bolt lift I wonder what you will find if you are able to accurately measure some cases overall their length and diameter etc compared to others. I suppose the primer wouldn't have backed out would it causing the bolt lift to be stiff... ?? Just a thought.

One of my best friends doing load development is my Mitutoyo 0.00005" accuracy Micrometer for measuring cases, especially around the head, and of cause their Calipers.

PS..

Those Creedmoor Cases are cheaper than my 6.5x47L and boy are cases getting expensive. Just as well I stocked up with several hundred some years ago when they were half the current price.

[Cooper]

image.jpeg (1.25 MiB) Viewed 12620 times

I fired 6 at 41gr here is 3 with a noticeable mark on the outside rim (extractor Mark?) doesn't look like the primers have backed out causing the problem. I put the black texta on the 6.5 to mark the cases which were fired with 41gr.

Also I should add. My initial case prep was just checking a couple of cases chambered ok. Them loaded them up. The cases fired at 41gr were fire formed and necked sized. The bolt seem to close fine. 3 had slight marks on outside rim. Two had noticeable stiff bolt lift. The other 3 seemed fine.

[Apollo]

Top photo. Is that the extractor mark you speak of on the "A" in Hornady. ?? Might be my eyes but I can't see any on the bottom two. I have seen far worse from my experiments with a .243W testing Winchester Powder at a maximum load on a very hot day, not very accurate compared to lesser loads so from memory it was only 3-4 rounds tested. Cases where then FLS as they measured expansion just in front of the case head. I haven't used that Winchester Powder again since going back to AR2209 for the heavier bullets and AR2208 for lighter.

They looked like your top case where I think I can see a distinctive mark / ridge also, below the case head. That's what I would be measuring with my Micrometer to see if it is in fact an expansion mark. After many firings, like 6-10 reloads, a lot of my cases have the same mark but the diameter has not changed since the first firing where from memory they increased by 0.0005-0.001". I also use an Endoscope to check the insides of old cases after they have had a good internal clean.

From the photo, but hard to tell, the Primers don't look to have backed out. It was just a thought of something that might have made the bolt opening a little tight.

I would also have compared the case lengths from the Bases to the Shoulder Datum Point using a Cartridge Headspace Gauge between them all, including if possible an unfired case.

How far does the Carbon Track come back along the Necks, even perhaps Shoulder of the cases.

Also, I'd give the Chamber a thorough clean with a Chamber Mop and a slight touch of Solvent.

[Apollo]

A further thought on maximum / near maximum powder charges between different rifles, perhaps even the same rifle and same bullet weight but different manufacturer / style.

Neck tension using different types / manufacturer of Reloading Dies which may or may not affect case pressure buildup. Also different bullets of the same weight but a different length of bearing surface.. ie longer bearing surface more pressure buildup.

What I'm getting at is that a change of bullet type of the same weight may not show any problems like a harder bolt lift for the same given powder load and seating depth.

[Cooper]

Carbon track is just or neck. Nothing on shoulder. The gun has a grand total of 37 shots through it now. I like the idea chamber mop and solvent. Just thinking there may have some residual oil from new that got on the case. The bolt was literally swimming in oil from new.

The case on right has what I call a extractor Mark? Above the the A in Hornady. The two other case has a shinning spot at the 6.5 which has been marked in Texta. Sorry not the best pictures I know. Thanks

[Gamerancher]

Hornady, who came up with this cartridge, publish the load data on the box of it's match grade ammo. Their initial loading was 41.5gr of H-4350 ( 2209 ) behind a 140gr A-max for 2710 f/s out of a 24" barrel. Winchester also offer a match grade ammo with a 140gr BTHP bullet @ 2700 f/s.
I have hunted with a number of different 6.5's over the years and have had good results using a variety of bullets. The Nosler 120gr ballistic tips are a great performer, they shoot flat and straight and have good terminal performance on game. You should be able to get them out of your Creedmoor @ 3000 f/s.
If your quarry is larger species try the 140gr Nosler partitions, they are a good, tough bullet.
Seating bullets further out to increase C.O.L can lead to increased pressure if you start coming in contact with the lands. Shorter will give you a "jump" before the bullet contacts the lands and less pressure.

[Cooper]

Hornady, who came up with this cartridge, publish the load data on the box of it's match grade ammo. Their initial loading was 41.5gr of H-4350 ( 2209 ) behind a 140gr A-max for 2710 f/s out of a 24" barrel. Winchester also offer a match grade ammo with a 140gr BTHP bullet @ 2700 f/s.
I have hunted with a number of different 6.5's over the years and have had good results using a variety of bullets. The Nosler 120gr ballistic tips are a great performer, they shoot flat and straight and have good terminal performance on game. You should be able to get them out of your Creedmoor @ 3000 f/s.
If your quarry is larger species try the 140gr Nosler partitions, they are a good, tough bullet.
Seating bullets further out to increase C.O.L can lead to increased pressure if you start coming in contact with the lands. Shorter will give you a "jump" before the bullet contacts the lands and less pressure.

Yeah I had read about Hornady's load data on the box. That kind of why I sort of jump to 41gr thinking it should be fine.
Also interesting about increasing the C.O.L could actually increase the pressure if the projectile comes into contact with the lands. I have heard the Howa's are long throated (or deep throated). But I guess there is only one way to be sure. I'll have to measure it. Thanks

[Gamerancher]

If you don't want to sacrifice a piece of your brass, make a dummy round out of one of your fired cases. Usually the neck will have expanded to the point where a bullet inserted into it will slip. Put a bullet into the case so that is just being gripped by the neck. Carefully chamber and then extract the case and measure it. The bullet should have pushed back into the case when it come into contact with the lands, this is a very simple way of finding out your rifles maximum C.O.L.
( If the neck is too loose, run it into the sizing die just enough to size the very top of the neck to give a very light grip on the bullet. )

[Gamerancher]

Another thought on this Cooper. Perhaps that 140gr SST has a harder jacket and/or a longer bearing surface than the 140gr A-max quoted or the 140gr ELD that I use.
Both of these things will increase pressure. I don't have any SST's to compare.

[Cooper]

I bought some factory rounds loaded with 143 ELD-X says 2700fps muzzle velocity on the box. Will give them a run on the week end with the magneto speed. Usually I try some factory stuff before reloads. Will be interesting

[Gamerancher]

Will be interesting for sure. The "X" stands for expanding, the hunting variety vs. the target one.

[Cooper]

Didn't get a chance to do everything I wanted on the weekend. But I did run a few rounds over the Magneto speed.

I adjusted the COL on my 140SST loads to the same as the factory 143ELD-X loads for 2730fps at 41gr of ar2209.

I ran two of the factory ELD-X over the magneto speed for a disappointing nearly 50fps difference between the two. Been 2681fps and 2728fps the were the 3rd and 4th rounds fired. So wasn't like the first was a cold bore shot. Hopefully the rest of the box isn't like that!

I bought a sample box of 20 X 143ELD-X projectiled and plan of doing some testing this weekend. I got plenty of the 140SST so I'll try and find a sweet spot and then load up the 143 Eld-X hopefully they are similar.

[HighCountry]

Hi fellas. I'm new to the group but found this post and thought I'd share my findings with the Tac A1 6.5.

I started at 40 gr of 2209 with the 142 gr LRAB and finished at 42.5 gr. @ 2.950" OAL finished with a light Lee factory crimp.

The groups closed up noticeably as the loads warmed up and I'm staying with 42.5 gr as I had no extraction issues or any other signs whatsoever with once fired Hornady brass.

I then tried 123 gr SST's and settled on 45gr as they did the same as the Nosler in that the best groups (0.2-0.4" for 5 @100m) were the hottest.

*Please note these are over max recommended so you should work up any loads in your individual rifles

[Sub.4MOAHowa]

Hi all,
New to forum as well and I'm looking for that "sweet" load in a HOWA1500 Varmint 6.5Creedmore.
24" 1in8 barrel.

Any positive observations/loads for ADI2209 for 140HPBT would be greatly appreciated.

Firstly, as above I'm talking over ADI "max loads" so use caution and work up with your own OAL and rifle.....

I think I have reloading technique relatively dialled for a guy not buying top end gear. Both my HOWA .308 and .223 consistently shoot 0.3-0.5MOA groups
Reloading Hornady brass with ADI 2209 and WLR primers.
Projectile - Nosler Custom Comp 140gnHPBT

Just my opinion, but I've wasted over 200 rounds, LOTS of time and $ trying to develop loads under the listed max of 40.0gn of 2209 (found an ok load at 35.0gn of 2208 and 37.3gn 2209 just as an FYI, but would have been too slow for long range shoots).

I'm finding groups are getting way smaller as I increase ADI2209 load above 40gn.
Using the Hornady "recommended reload" off their box for 140gn projectiles of 41.5gn H4350 (2209) as a guide I'm now at 41.7gn 2209 with nice groups down to 0.5MOA at 100m and no pressure signs at all.

Based on some reading that shooters have;
A)Pulled apart Hornady Factory Match and found 42.2-42.4gn of powder
B) multiple reports of good (0.3MOA) group results at those charges
C) other Max loads listed for 140gn of 41.0gn(Nosler) 42.3(Sierra)

I've just reloaded 41.7, 41.9, 42.1, 42.3, 42.4gn of ADI2209
Awaiting new Magnetospeed arrival then off to range!

I'll let you know how loads go if you're interested?

Again, so far 41.7gn safe and no pressure signs in my rifle. Reload with caution.