Unusual grouping, round robin test.

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Re: Unusual grouping, round robin test.

Post by bladeracer » 08 Sep 2017, 11:02 am

sungazer wrote:I actually thinking of doing as you suggested with the 50 rimfire shots. But is one hole better than 5 targets of 10 shots? should you cut out a whole in the middle to shoot through as when you shoot a lot of bullets into the same whole you do get a bit of ripping. Anyway good practice no matter how its done.

To Tarakai I would pick one and then just work with it. In my 243 I shoot a range of different bullets. I do all I can in the reloading room to produce consistent ammo that is the biggest factor in accuracy. The 243 does have a much shorter barrel life so think about how you want to spend it. IMHO between 1500-to max 3000 if you load right down, more likely 1000-1500 with loads in the higher end.


One thing to keep in mind when shooting groups, adjust your sight so the bullets are not hitting what you're aiming at. You don't want your aiming point to be changing shape and size as you shoot the group. And a smaller target is often better than a larger one - I tend to shoot better groups when I aim at the corner of a piece of tape or the junction of two lines instead of the target dot.

I think you are way underestimating barrel life. In the .243 loading hot I would think 1500rds is easy, and 3000rds is probably more realistic. If you back off from max velocities it should last much longer. But if you shoot one continuous session running the barrel as hot as possible it might go off within just a few hundred rounds.
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Re: Unusual grouping, round robin test.

Post by marksman » 08 Sep 2017, 4:47 pm

Gamerancher wrote:Considering it takes thousands of rounds to "shoot a barrel out", I don't reckon ol'mate is going to loose any accuracy by actually finding out just how accurate his rifle is.
My suggestion to go shoot a box of 50 was in relation to .22 rimfire, that takes 10's of thousands to even look like taking away the accuracy in one of those.
Also, just because someone shoots competition don't mean they don't hunt as well. I've shot many 1000's of rounds downing critters over the years . Lot of supposition going on there bloke.


very sorry if I got your blood pressure up Gamerancher,
my response wasn't at all directed at you it was put up just after what you had posted but came from others writing

when talking about accuracy or flogged out barrels, each individual will be talking about what is acceptable to them
I have rifles of very differing levels of accuracy and some will only be good for maybe less than 1000 rounds till starting to throw flyers
but these are really only going to give there best for maybe 500 rounds so as in my answer I don't waste them on paper as I am a hunter not a target shooter
I did say nothing against comp shooters and I meant it, this is the accuracy I am talking about that will not be there after 1000 shots and maybe not after 500
Image
the average for this rifle is just slightly larger than what you see, shot at 120 yards, I wish all my rifles were this accurate but there not
so again I apologise if you thought I was having a shot at what you had posted
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Re: Unusual grouping, round robin test.

Post by bladeracer » 08 Sep 2017, 4:54 pm

marksman wrote:very sorry if I got your blood pressure up Gamerancher,
my response wasn't at all directed at you it was put up just after what you had posted but came from others writing

when talking about accuracy or flogged out barrels, each individual will be talking about what is acceptable to them
I have rifles of very differing levels of accuracy and some will only be good for maybe less than 1000 rounds till starting to throw flyers
but these are really only going to give there best for maybe 500 rounds so as in my answer I don't waste them on paper as I am a hunter not a target shooter
I did say nothing against comp shooters and I meant it, this is the accuracy I am talking about that will not be there after 1000 shots and maybe not after 500
Image
the average for this rifle is just slightly larger than what you see, shot at 120 yards, I wish all my rifles were this accurate but there not
so again I apologise if you thought I was having a shot at what you had posted


But if you only shoot for hunting, why would you need that level of precision? At what point do you decide the barrel is "shot out"?
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Re: Unusual grouping, round robin test.

Post by marksman » 08 Sep 2017, 5:08 pm

this rifle is used for head shooting deer at distance as we eat the whole deer trying for no waste, sort of varmint hunting for bigger game
the barrel is shot out when you cant rely on shooting a golf ball at 250 consistently, maybe used for other shooting after this such as culling roos
I'm lucky to shoot 20-40 shots out of this rifle a year, I play with other rifles

just think of the old days when foxes were worth money, a 17 barrel a year, usually 1000 shots
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Re: Unusual grouping, round robin test.

Post by Gwion » 09 Sep 2017, 7:44 am

Technically that is a precise rifle but you don't have it set up accurately because all three rounds missed the bullseye. :thumbsup: :drinks:
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Re: Unusual grouping, round robin test.

Post by Gwion » 09 Sep 2017, 7:57 am

Re: testing statistical precision of a particular rifle, you get much better data firing 10x 5round groups and seperate target than you will firing all 50 rounds at one target. You'll get an even better statistical indication of true group size (precision) by firing one shot at those 10 target sequentially, five times (round robin style so you still end up with 5 round groups but with 10 rounds between each shot in each group). You then analyse the groups and average out, then you'll have a pretty accurate indication of what you and you rifle are capable of, precision wise.

I will try to find the paper again but the US military found that there was no statistical advantage in firing 10 shots in a group as 5 shot groups returned the same results as 10 shot groups, however there is a statistical advantage in firing more of those 5 shot groups, as in the example above, ie: 10x5shot rather than 5x10shots to give a true indication of a guns precision and zero for the purposes of finding that guns zero or sighting for a given range/distance.
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Re: Unusual grouping, round robin test.

Post by marksman » 09 Sep 2017, 11:19 am

Gwion wrote:Technically that is a precise rifle but you don't have it set up accurately because all three rounds missed the bullseye. :thumbsup: :drinks:


:thumbsup: it is precise and accurate now :thumbsup:
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Re: Unusual grouping, round robin test.

Post by Gamerancher » 10 Sep 2017, 10:21 am

"Marksman", I didn't take your remark personally. I don't shoot paper much myself.
BUT, It did have a tone of "I'm better than that" about it. Perhaps read your posts aloud to yourself before submitting? :unknown:
I have been guilty myself of conveying the wrong "tone" in a post than what was meant. ( Probably more than once ) :oops:
Each to his own I reckon, but don't go putting $hit one one group of shooters because you " do not like shooting my barrels out on paper I don't like the taste".
That's a bit like saying "I'm not racist but...."

With regards basic statistics, the larger the test sample, the more true the result.
Example, conducting a poll of 1000 people who walk past in Martin Place about whether we need to "toughen" the gun laws is not a true indication of the opinion of all Australians.

I still challenge anyone to try the 50 shot .22 challenge, yes adjust your sight so that the group is away from your aiming point, and come back and show us your "sub M.O.A" group. Just sayin'. :thumbsup: :drinks:
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Re: Unusual grouping, round robin test.

Post by marksman » 10 Sep 2017, 4:09 pm

good to hear you didn't take anything personally Gamerancher
just saying though, what I said was tongue in cheek but I really don't like the taste of paper :sarcasm:
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Re: Unusual grouping, round robin test.

Post by Stix » 11 Sep 2017, 12:39 am

marksman wrote:
Gamerancher wrote:Considering it takes thousands of rounds to "shoot a barrel out", I don't reckon ol'mate is going to loose any accuracy by actually finding out just how accurate his rifle is.
My suggestion to go shoot a box of 50 was in relation to .22 rimfire, that takes 10's of thousands to even look like taking away the accuracy in one of those.
Also, just because someone shoots competition don't mean they don't hunt as well. I've shot many 1000's of rounds downing critters over the years . Lot of supposition going on there bloke.


very sorry if I got your blood pressure up Gamerancher,
my response wasn't at all directed at you it was put up just after what you had posted but came from others writing

when talking about accuracy or flogged out barrels, each individual will be talking about what is acceptable to them
I have rifles of very differing levels of accuracy and some will only be good for maybe less than 1000 rounds till starting to throw flyers
but these are really only going to give there best for maybe 500 rounds so as in my answer I don't waste them on paper as I am a hunter not a target shooter
I did say nothing against comp shooters and I meant it, this is the accuracy I am talking about that will not be there after 1000 shots and maybe not after 500
Image
the average for this rifle is just slightly larger than what you see, shot at 120 yards, I wish all my rifles were this accurate but there not
so again I apologise if you thought I was having a shot at what you had posted


Can i ask...do u get this accuracy from tweaked off the shelf production rifles, or custom builds/custom rebsrrels...?
The man who knows everything, doesnt really know everything...he's just stopped learning...
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Re: Unusual grouping, round robin test.

Post by marksman » 11 Sep 2017, 4:04 pm

both, but this one is a customised whitworth mauser 98
I like mausers :thumbsup: here is a 650 yard shot
Image
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