Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 12 Sep 2017, 8:37 pm

Chronos wrote:
For me I like to start by finding the bullet I want to use, then the most appropriate powder (It's amazing how many people plug away with a powder that's not ideal)

Then I look at the charge weight range, start about 1gr above minimum and load one round up to max and maybe .5-1gr over max and in either .3 or .5gr steps depending on case capacity. then I shoot them off over a chrony looking for pressure signs and recording velocity.

Somewhere there will be at least 1 or two nodes where velocity steps are closer, to me that's an indication that any load charge variation wont give big elevation changes at longer ranges

At this point I've only shot 6-8 rounds

Then i go back and load smaller charge steps either side of the range I want to work in, maybe 4-5 of each step, gives enough of any one load to resight the rifle in but I rarely shoot more than 3 shot groups of any one load. to me there's no point shooting more than 3 shots, A decent shooter will know if the load is good and 5 rounds is great on a heavy barreled target gun but can be misleading on a light weight barrel that drifts when hot

At this point I've fires around 20 rounds... ... ...

Chronos


Wow...im impressed...seriously...!!!

Firstly, i was going to shoot what i have...one of the following...hdy 50z & vmax, nos 50 & 55bt, sie 55 gameking, sie 55 varmnt (flat base)...
Was going to push them with 2208, but i also have 2209, 2206h, bm2, & 2207...
Is my choice of 2208 correct...?..., if not can you suggest what i should use & why...?

As for initial one shot/ charge weight with chrono to see where velocities are close... ...
On another rifle, i recently got 2 loads where the velocities overlapped with say up to 80fps es over both loads, the targets were absolute shyte (2moa) so i discounted them as other loads had es of 20 & sd <10fps & printed .25moa (100m)...
If i only shot one of each of these charges i could either get a false positive, or potentially miss a node...
So if its simple enough to answer, my question is how do you know you (or how would i know) i dont miss a node just shooting one shot initially...?...

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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Supaduke » 12 Sep 2017, 8:50 pm

Fairly quick succession so that conditions are similar. Comes back to containing variables.

Chrono's to me, are for checking consistency of powder charges and for sorting drop tables etc. While starting load development, who cares how fast it's going if it doesn't shoot. Chronograohs are for fine tuning loads that have potential. A second stage tool. A round that is accurate at 100m will be accurate at any distance. In my experience, there is no such thing as a round that is not accurate at 100m but somehow becomes accurate at 200m etc. Millifart differences in powder charge and velocity have minimal impact on performance at initial testing distances.

Running barrels in is a subject that has been discussed ad nauseum, plenty of opinions on that , I don't bother beyond a few shots , a clean and away we go. That's a personal choice.

Also I do 5 shots to get a better average. Firing only a couple, you may inadvertently pull a shot or get a puff of wind. Having only a small range of data , you can end up with a skewed result because of shooter error. You may then end up persuing a load that is crap because you fluked it, or missing a good load because you pulled a shot. I am.realistic about my shooting ability. The bigger your data range, the more accurate and truthful your information and choices will be.

Shooting one shot sub moa, when testing, is meaningless. 'Averaging' sub moa is what matters.

It's why all data collection is more accurate when more data is collected. It's also why mean averages are derived by discarding the highest and lowest results , removing anomalies. (Pulled shots, wind gusts, over/under charged )
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 12 Sep 2017, 9:38 pm

straightshooter wrote:
Stix wrote:Hi folks...
etc.


I have been around for a long time and see that in reality and in essence very little has changed.
Your post kind of reminds me of the many tear stained letters sent to 'Uncle Nick' over the years asking for his secret load that would transform an average 'RemChester' into a super accurate tack driver.
The first thing to understand is that no special load recipe will overcome issues emanating from the various parts of the shooting system if any part of that system in fact has issues.
The reality is that if you load safe and consistent (eg. negligible bullet runout for one and the list goes on) ammunition then you should enjoy as good accuracy as your shooting system is capable of producing.
The best practical accuracy will come if you are prepared to shoot a sufficient sample size at a long enough range to obtain a true group center.
Many shooters are deluded by advertising jibber or a belief in magic or a thought process that goes something like this.
Formula 1 cars put nitrogen in their tyres so if I put nitrogen in the tyres on my 1995 corolla then it will go like a formula 1 car.
Cynicism is my reward for being around a long time and having gone down many of the dead ends others these days recommend.


Hi Straightshooter,
Firstly, i did lol at your cynicism...& a good reward it must be...!
2ndly, im not a dreamer, & thus im not asking for (i didnt ask for) a magic oil to wipe my barrel with that will give me .11" @600 yds...or a special load recipe...
I shot the last 1000 rounds out of the barrel on my other 22-250 trying to find its best...i discovered shooting at 400yds improved my skill tenfold, i could get 1.2" groups with .25" elevation @400 yds in 5mph wind, but i also discovered unexplained flyers that push a group out to moa or biggrr-so i bought a chrono...i then in turn wasted the rest of the barrel trying to find out why they were occuring.
I went about asking self confessed expert after self confessed expert who by their own admissions could shoot the eye of a rabbit @500yds for advice, only to have them hint to me ill never be able to shoot as good as them & if im shooting .5moa @100 what more do i want...funny that when out in the field with these guys they would miss bunnies at 60yds while i popped foxes between the eyes at 200+...

This is a hobby for me & i just want to be the best i can be...no magic...
In the past ive wasted kilos of powder chasing the best while going backwards...
My club is open once a month...it takes me 3 trips (thats 3 months) to get a load, then i can test it at 400yds up the farm before i have real fun in the field.
All im asking is for your (& everyone elses) advice on how & if i could possibly achieve this in a more efficient manner...efficient in BOTH time & powder.
So far you have suggested safe consistant loads with little/no bullet runout, so ill look at getting a conc gauge, but sounds to me like you are one of the guys that could give me more tips/steps on how i might achieve a good load more efficiently...?!?.
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Supaduke » 12 Sep 2017, 9:50 pm

I guess what I was trying to say is, efficiency is gained from reliable and repeatable testing. The information you gather needs to be accurate and truthful so it can be relied on. This allows you to make informed decisions and not waste time just trying random things hoping to stumble on the perfect combo.

You should be able to say "when I do this , this is what happens and it happens every time."
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 12 Sep 2017, 9:52 pm

By the way straightshooter, im not being hostile at all...
& maybe on reflection i am wanting a kind of magic oil...in the form of low powder consumption in the way chonos has said he goes about it. ..
I just want a quicker way to get a load worthy of testing at ranges beyond 200...if its achievable for me...
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 12 Sep 2017, 10:09 pm

Thanks Supa...i get what your saying...
& a big appreciative thanks to ALL for input so far ...
Ive been keeping detailed records of late on another rifle which has helped immensely, but i did do it with a chrono & it still takes at least 3 range trips before confirmatìon...

Im not sure i have the confidence to go about it the way Chronos has detailed...after just 20 odd rounds testing not sure id be confident on a fox under spotlight beyond 150m...not saying its wrong...just a lack of confidence on my part.
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 12 Sep 2017, 10:26 pm

What about peoples take on initial shooting with handloads or factory...

Start with factory loads to establish if its 'a shooter'.
Or start with the lap brass i have for it up front...
(Factory fired brass of various brands is no good to me...it will eventually be fed with lap).

??...
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Member-Deleted » 13 Sep 2017, 12:43 am

Stix i'm just an old fella I have 2 22-250s and my son has 0ne ,mine are sako, mauser set with 22-250 barrel and my sons is a ruger
MY sako is 1-14 twist and the mauser is 1-12 Ackley my sons is 1-12 twist
Now you have been given a lot of info from knowledgeable people I can only tell you what worked for me
Now what I done was get 4 powders load 3 bullets with 55gr projectiles or what ever weight you intend to use ,Shoot all bullets into separate targets
Take the best group and that powder may be the best for that rifle ( by the way load min charge in adi book for that projectile )
Then play with the loading I went up in .5gr increments until I either hit max or the group was getting near to what I wanted then till the group started
to open up then go back to the closest group and move either side of it in 1-2gr increments
If you can't get what you want with 55gr try heavier or lighter depending on your twist rate
I found Benchmark 2 best for both the 1-14 and 1-12 twists both 24 inch barrels and the Ackley ar2209 with 26 inch barrel
All three shoot .3-.6 the Ackley is the .6 with 60gr
The sako uses 31.6gr b/m2 and the ruger 34.2 b/m2 and the Ackley 38.4 ar2209
Mate I also found that the 24'' barrels of ours liked flat base projectiles rather than boattail where as the 26'' and slower powder liked the boattail
So mate the quickest way for me was 4 powders get the best group and work from there
Good luck
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Member-Deleted » 13 Sep 2017, 12:49 am

A correction in my last post with the 3 bullets and 4 powders it is
4 POWDERS load 3 bullets of each powder making 12 bullets then fire 3 of each powder into separate targets
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Chronos » 13 Sep 2017, 7:43 am

The OP asked for the most efficient route and I posted the method I've found after working on loads for nearly 30 rifles.

This is the exact method I use with my most recent riflel, a Kimber Montana in 7WSM. Half a day at the range loading as I go and this was the end result at 200 m in gusty conditions shot off a backpack

Image

This was just before my first hunt at 50m just to check zero and make final adjustment

Image

This was the result of the first shot fired in the field. 120 m shot offhand (standing)

Image

This was a rifle I was told by its previous owner "is not a sub Moa gun" yet in under 30 rounds I had a load I was happy to hunt with. Go about it as you will and shoot 10 shot groups if it helps your confidence but this is my most efficient method

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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Member-Deleted » 13 Sep 2017, 10:16 am

Well I rest my case I have 2 22-250s that tear a raggered hole with 6 bullets @ 100yds off a rest
I have owned quiet a few 22-250s over the past 40yrs all shot around .3-.5 with the final load for accuracy all have been their own rifles with their different
little traits some shot best with hot loads some with minimum like my sako of today but none shot 1.2'' @ 400yds with 55gr projectiles with a 5mph breeze
blowing no matter what elevation
All I can say is along the lines of sungazer and say if you are getting those figures you already know how to get an accurate load and should be competitive
shooting you are wasting a natural talent

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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Gwion » 13 Sep 2017, 11:20 am

3 months is longer than i could stay sane while load developing; notwithstanding your results!

I am lucky enough to be able to load, shoot, load, shoot, load shoot all in one day. I notice that Chronos also shoots and loads as he goes where possible.

Not saying my process is perfect or most efficient but for my rifles and level of shooting skill, being able to develop a 0.5moa load in one day with less than 50 rounds expended i find pretty efficient. Keep it simple, i say.

I developed this system based on the theory that:
1/ A good group is primarily based on a well built rifle
2/ A good load is contingent on consistency and accuracy in loading practice with fine attention to detail
3/ Seating depth is king so start at the longest possible seating for your rifle or mag and then you only have to experiment in one direction to refine your load with no guess work as to if a shorter or longer jump is required.
4/ Remove as many variables as possible so pick a nice still day for all testing and development.
5/ Proper Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance: research your cartridge/bullet weight/best powder before you start and prep your brass to what ever your standards are from the start.

As for using factory loads first: if you have the gear to reload, i don't see the point of using factory loads unless it is the only way you can source brass.
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Oldbloke » 13 Sep 2017, 7:14 pm

"As for using factory loads first: if you have the gear to reload, i don't see the point of using factory loads unless it is the only way you can source brass."

Yep, yep, yep.
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 13 Sep 2017, 7:25 pm

sungazer wrote:Stix all I can say is if your getting 1.2" horizontal spread and 0.25" vertical spread at 400yrds. You should be shooting competition, That would equate to possibles every time in fact with 10 count x hits.


Nice to hear...but not reality due to the flyers that if added in as i said would push a group out to moa+, & i got there literally 4-6 weeks before the barrel was gone.......but it took me 300 rounds to find that load, & it still had 90+fps es.....& thats what i want to avoid with this new rifle...

I did try f-class first time a while ago, i shot the host clubs rifle & shot 47/3 & 50/4 first time....

However i was being coached for wind...& ammo loaded by them on their rifle...

None of that helps me burning less powder & time to find the load...im trying to learn...
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 13 Sep 2017, 7:37 pm

[quote="grandadbushy"]Stix i'm just an old fella... ... ...

Thanks for your input...!!

Like some of the jokes too...!!!

Cheers
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 13 Sep 2017, 8:07 pm

Chronos wrote:The OP asked for the most efficient route and I posted the method I've found... ... ...
Go about it as you will and shoot 10 shot groups if it helps your confidence but this is my most efficient method

Chronos


Thanks Chronos...i appreciate your input...& admire your experience & confidence...

I wont be shooting 10 shot groups though...ive obviously been there & done that...hence why im here asking you all how you all go about it...

I dont really have the option of taking my gear to the range unless im willing to put up with everyone wanting to play with it...
Earlier in the year some clown went ruffling through my ammo box which was layed out with various charges for a load test & knocked my trigger arm doing so while i was trying to shoot a group...god knows what might happen if i took my press etc there...sheesh...could get ugly...!

120 m shot off the shoulder...nice going...!!
The last cat i saw out bush took off with one of my bloody rabbits i just shot...it looked like the one in your pic...!

Cheers
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Gwion » 13 Sep 2017, 8:08 pm

Stix, in regard to your comment about "more experienced shooters" hinting that you'll never shoot as well as them, unfortunately one does come across this attitude.

There is a regular news letter by one Geoff Ayling and he covers this very subject. Traditionally, rifle clubs were set up to develop and pass on marksmanship to newer generations for 'defence of the realm'. Now days basic marksmanship is not taught and people are left to wing it for themselves to a greater extent. Of course, there are exceptions in some clubs and from some members/instructors but don't take it badly if you find it usual for people to want to keep their 'secrets' for their own glory.

Also, as you suggest, there is a big difference between being able to shoot a tight group at the range and being able to put that first round were it counts in the field.
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 13 Sep 2017, 8:16 pm

[quote="Gwion"]3 months is longer than i could stay sane while load developing; notwithstanding your results!

I am lucky enough to be able to load, shoot, load, shoot, load shoot all in one day. I notice that Chronos also shoots and loads as he goes where possible.

Not saying my process is perfect or most efficient but for my rifles and level of shooting skill, being able to develop a 0.5moa load in one day with less than 50 rounds expended i find pretty efficient.

Yep...3 months...sanity...clearly a reason im here asking...

.5 moa in one day is efficient as far as im concerned...also like the methodology...

As for being sble too load as i shoot--see my note in above post with quote to Chronos...

Thanks
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Gwion » 13 Sep 2017, 8:33 pm

If you have access to a paddock and can set up a temp reloading bench on the back of a ute then you may be able to cut down that 3 months by quite a bit.

:unknown:
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Member-Deleted » 13 Sep 2017, 8:44 pm

By the way Stix all the 22-250s I have owned about 6-8 all , and I say all liked to be very close to the lands, move them away and they opened from
bug holes to maybe on some to .7 or in some cases a little wider
Once I got my best powder load with 55gr projectiles I would then play with diff weight projectiles but at all times having them close to the lands
If your twist is 1-14 to 1-12 I find pretty much 55grs are perfect for those twist rates not saying there is no other way of doing it but just trying to simplify
things
If I remember most all my rifles took about 18 to 24 rounds to perfect the accuracy once I had the best powder for that rifle but the big trick is
keep the projectiles close as possible without touching the lands and try to keep it exactly the same each time you load
There will be for and against this way of doing it but its simple and it works I have proven it to me and that is what matters in the end
Also it has been cheap for me as far as projectiles and powder to end up with bug holes @ 100yds more than I need to do my job
I do test my rifles out fairly wide the widest I've shot a wild dog is 485yds heart shot I don't normally shoot them that far out but I had been chasing him a
long time and he had caused far more damage to stock than any other dog I have chased probably took the shot from shear frustration something I
have never done before I'm not proud of it but it all turned out good

Good luck
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 14 Sep 2017, 7:13 pm

Thanks for all the info so far...
Ill see how i go over the next few weeks & hopefully put some good results up here...
Cheers
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 18 Sep 2017, 12:11 am

Hi folks,
Forgive me for asking 2 potentially silly questions re seating depth...
On the weekend i mounted the scope & did some fiddling...
I got an approx measurement to the lands, & discovered i can reach the lands comfortably running thru the mag (i feel a little silly not having established this earlier).

Its been mentioned by Chronos & backed by other(s) that seating buĺlets in the lands is more suited for VLD target proj's in custom chambers...

So im seeking advice on 2 quick questions...

1) given this is a production chambered hunting/varmint rifle & will be shooting varmint type proj's & i can reach the lands running thru the mag, how far off the lands should i start load testing from (pending suitable proj length)...?

2) given seating further out is only subject to projectile length in this instance, is there an "ideal" amount of the proj that should be seated in the neck (ie calibre depth)...?

If its of interest, i did the measurement with a Sie .22 cal 55gn Game King (boat tail), touching the lands there is .145"/(3.68mm) +/- .002" of proj seated in case trimmed to spec.
I seated a few dummy rounds & cannot visually see any tip wobble when case is rolled-(i dont have a concentricity gauge)

Thanks in advance...
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Member-Deleted » 18 Sep 2017, 1:49 am

Stix some rifles like different length bullets so what I do is get the best loads with the closest groups that you like with a standard length
requirement for the given calibre then start increasing the length towards the lands
See if the grouping changes in or out but be careful by putting the projectile into the lands can cause a spike in chamber pressure
How I got my length to lands was colour the projectile with black felt pen after putting in an empty case leave it fairly long then fit it into the chamber
and slowly close the bolt until it tightens up don't force it in too tight otherwise it will pull the projectile out when you remove the shell
If its too long it will mark the projectile so keep moving the projectile in testing and remarking every time you move the projectile in until you can close the bolt
and it doesn't leave a mark on the black marker on the projectile then I leave mine at that
If the group tightens up then your rifle likes them close to the lands but if its still not tight enough you can then start playing with powder again just to try for a
tighter group
With one of my rifles I found it shot very good with near max load but when I moved the projectile out close to the lands it shot a hole bug with min load a difference
of about 4gr less powder
So mate get your best load and give it the old heave ho and see how you go
Now remember this is how I got my rifles going probably rough in some eyes but it worked and was quiet simple for a dumb old bastard like me
And they are all tack drivers thankfully if it was left to my ability wouldn't be much worthwile

As far as silly questions never heard of such a thing

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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Gwion » 18 Sep 2017, 10:04 am

Personally I would start my development on the lands then once I have a tight grouping load, test some at 10, 20 & 30 thou off the lands. I have done this with hunting bullets and target (amax) with good results.
A hunting round it is important to feed smoothly and not get jammed, as the potential is there for the jammed bullet (jammed in rifling) to be pulled when extracting an unfired round.
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Member-Deleted » 18 Sep 2017, 10:20 am

Yeah Gwion same disease different doctor wouldn't be nothing worse than sitting on a mountain with an empty shell in one hand
and a projectile stuck in the barrel sorta buggers the shooting trip if you can't remove it there
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Wm.Traynor » 18 Sep 2017, 11:15 am

It is usual to have the bullet seated in the neck according to calibre. i.e. 0.22" for 223 pills, 0.300 for 30 calibre rifles but you can use a shallower depth as long as chambering and feeding from the magazine does not spoil the concentricity of the whole cartridge. Always check the feed of the finished product :)
FWIW, I have always used a cleaning rod to determine overall cartridge length with the bullet seated against the lands.
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Member-Deleted » 18 Sep 2017, 11:49 am

All good info all works , good debate now Stix all you have to decide is which one works for you or which one you are going to use ,
over time you will probably try them all
Some in there I will even try myself next time I need to

Good luck
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 18 Sep 2017, 12:40 pm

Thanks for the different methods of how to attain a distance to lands guys..!

I have confirmed i CAN feed from the mag--infact i loaded dummy's as far as .030" INTO lands & could still fit a baboon in the mag with the cartridge--plenty of room for trouble free feeding (minus the baboon).
So im more interested to hear peoples opinions on whether to begin load testing on, in or off the lands--& by how far either way...?

Thanks Gwion...!...just to confirm, you would start AT the lands, or IN... (ie; +.010/.020...?)

Thanks Wm.traynor on answering concentricity point...!

Thanks again all...
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Gwion » 18 Sep 2017, 12:52 pm

AT or ON the lands, not IN the rifling (jammed). Mind you, with a hunting load i would just be on the lands to get my basic charge, or even start 5 thou off the lands. If you are ON the lands with a hunting load and your seating tolerance is, say, 5thou, then some may end up jammed. The reason i start as close as possible to the lands is so i only have to test in one direction, ie: AWAY form the lands. If i start at, say, 40thou off the lands (not uncommon), then i have to guess which way to start my testing when adjusting seating depth or load up a bunch in either direction, which can be a waste of components.

Again, this is just my way of doing it.
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by marksman » 18 Sep 2017, 2:57 pm

sungazer wrote:I tried the black texta and found it didnt really leave a mark. I found that putting the bullet in long and not being able to close the bolt a good indication your there and then working the bullet back into the case until no issue. Then try other methods to refine from there. Have a cleaning rod handy if you get a stuck projectile. Other ways are to have a loosely fitting bullet that will push back as the bolt closes.


not that its the way I would try to find my oal but shine the bullet with steel wool and you will see the marks from the lands

the best way is to use a cleaning rod down the bore against a cocked bolt, tape on rod and mark at the muzzle with a fine marker
then remove bolt and put in a projectile in the chamber against the lands and repeat putting the cleaning rod down the bore against the tip of the bullet put some tape on and mark with a fine marker, now measure the marks you have made and you have your oal, make sure the cleaning rod fits the bore and the rod is a male end, I file the end of a brush flat to make a male end
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