reloading .223 1in8 twist

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by gilmc » 11 Oct 2017, 10:46 am

Hi all, I'm after some advice please. I have a Tikka T3 .223 with a 1 in 8 twist. I have been having issues with this rifle since new in regards to reloading. My previous rifles all had 1 in 12 twist and I reloaded with 50-55gn projectiles using either BM1 or 2206h and accuracy was never an issue. My Tikka however does not like any projectiles in the 50-55gn range (I've tried just about all of them) with grouping at 100m as bad as 6" so I went to the 60gn Vmax using 2206h (as suggested by the gun shop where I bought the rifle). This is a little better but the best grouping I can get is 2" at 100m. I'm now looking at heavier projectiles and this is where I'm in need of assistance. Having only ever loaded with with the lighter projectiles I'm not sure on case lengths etc. My current COL is 57.4mm, I tried looking online but all the information I can find relates to loads for rifles with a 1 in 12 twist. I would also like some info regarding powder, I currently use 2206h after getting advice from a local gun shop, when I questioned the burn rate and should I go for a slower burning powder with the heavier projectile the answer came back 'nah it'll be right' (I'm from Canberra so I have no confidence in the local gun shop).
Any advice will be greatly appreciated as I'm getting more and more frustrated and not enjoying my shooting at all at the moment.
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by Wm.Traynor » 11 Oct 2017, 1:51 pm

Your group sizes are disappointing as you say but is bedding involved? For instance, are the groups strung out vertically? I used 2206H in my 223 with 80 gn bullets without any trouble but it had a quicker twist. You could go to 70 gn at least. COL involves how well the ammo feeds from the mag as well as the overall length with the bullet seated against the rifling. When you get that last measurement subtract 0.030". Measure the internal length of the mag. If it is greater than the last COL then the ammo will fit. Try it out to see if they feed.
Vertical stringing can involve scope and mount screws, take-down bolts as well as bedding of action and barrel. The subject must be dealt with methodically and is time consuming. If you are really unlucky, the scope might have dead internal adjustments. We will help :thumbsup:
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by bladeracer » 11 Oct 2017, 2:23 pm

gilmc wrote:Hi all, I'm after some advice please. I have a Tikka T3 .223 with a 1 in 8 twist. I have been having issues with this rifle since new in regards to reloading. My previous rifles all had 1 in 12 twist and I reloaded with 50-55gn projectiles using either BM1 or 2206h and accuracy was never an issue. My Tikka however does not like any projectiles in the 50-55gn range (I've tried just about all of them) with grouping at 100m as bad as 6" so I went to the 60gn Vmax using 2206h (as suggested by the gun shop where I bought the rifle). This is a little better but the best grouping I can get is 2" at 100m. I'm now looking at heavier projectiles and this is where I'm in need of assistance. Having only ever loaded with with the lighter projectiles I'm not sure on case lengths etc. My current COL is 57.4mm, I tried looking online but all the information I can find relates to loads for rifles with a 1 in 12 twist. I would also like some info regarding powder, I currently use 2206h after getting advice from a local gun shop, when I questioned the burn rate and should I go for a slower burning powder with the heavier projectile the answer came back 'nah it'll be right' (I'm from Canberra so I have no confidence in the local gun shop).
Any advice will be greatly appreciated as I'm getting more and more frustrated and not enjoying my shooting at all at the moment.


Have you tried the 69-77gn bullets?
It might also work with a more heavily constructed 55-60gn bullet, the lightly-built VMax might not be hanging together due to the rotation.
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by juststarting » 11 Oct 2017, 2:24 pm

50gn bullet from 1:8 twist maybe a little lite. Maybe try some 69gn factory ammo, that works well in my browning (1:8, 223) and go up from there, 70, 77, 80.
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by Oldbloke » 11 Oct 2017, 9:41 pm

s**t I'm glad I bought a $530 Marlin.

Yep I agree, try heavier bullets.
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by marksman » 12 Oct 2017, 7:27 am

if the rifle is under warranty send it back, the 8" twist should still shoot the lighter projectiles
do not modify the rifle in any way as you will bugger the warranty
and don't just keep trying everything on the shelf before you send it back
I think you will find it's not the ammo
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by BRNO_Bigot » 12 Oct 2017, 2:07 pm

Personally, I'd buy a few boxes of factory ammo of different weights and so on and give them each a go.

223 ammo is cheap enough and it'll stop the frustration building as your best efforts are laughed at by the rifle.

Personally, even though many people say 1:8 can't shoot light bullets accurately, I've never seen them falling apart like that - having the bullet overstabilised is not really a huge deal. I've fired .22 Hornet bullets in my 223 1:12 - where the hornet bullets are built to stabilise in a 1:16 barrel at lower velocity. I admit they were red-mist on ground squirrels in South Africa, so not recommended if you want to eat what you shoot.

If NONE of them give you any joy, maybe having the rifle looked at by a decent gunsmith will help - bedding, scope mounts, crown etc, etc ...
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by Member-Deleted » 12 Oct 2017, 4:53 pm

First of all gilmc check if it is actually a 1-8 twist I had a 22-250 rebarrelled to 1-8 had all sorts of strife with it until somebody
on this forum suggested I do just that it turned out to be 1-12 if i'm not mistaken
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by Rikta » 12 Oct 2017, 5:45 pm

same as mine, im using 25gn 2206h and 55gn varmageddons getting abt 3250fps out of 24" barrel
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by Chronos » 12 Oct 2017, 6:05 pm

marksman wrote:if the rifle is under warranty send it back, the 8" twist should still shoot the lighter projectiles
do not modify the rifle in any way as you will bugger the warranty
and don't just keep trying everything on the shelf before you send it back
I think you will find it's not the ammo



If he's been shooting hand loads he's already blown his warranty.

I ran over 4000 rounds through my tikka 1:8" twist Varmint.

My go to load was 69gr Noslers over 23.2gr of BM2 for consistent .5 Moa groups with some around .3 Moa for 5 shots.

That's a target load and a little on the slow side but the rifle was stupid accurate and often hit a 1" spotter at 300m prone from a bipod, no rear bag.

I know you at want a hunting load so the Noslers may not suit but you should easily load it to sub Moa.

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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by Rikta » 12 Oct 2017, 6:13 pm

Chronos wrote:
marksman wrote:if the rifle is under warranty send it back, the 8" twist should still shoot the lighter projectiles
do not modify the rifle in any way as you will bugger the warranty
and don't just keep trying everything on the shelf before you send it back
I think you will find it's not the ammo



If he's been shooting hand loads he's already blown his warranty.

I ran over 4000 rounds through my tikka 1:8" twist Varmint.

My go to load was 69gr Noslers over 23.2gr of BM2 for consistent .5 Moa groups with some around .3 Moa for 5 shots.

That's a target load and a little on the slow side but the rifle was stupid accurate and often hit a 1" spotter at 300m prone from a bipod, no rear bag.

I know you at want a hunting load so the Noslers may not suit but you should easily load it to sub Moa.

Chronos


with the endless amounts of different factory ammo around how would they know if he has loaded his own or if it were factory?
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by Oldbloke » 12 Oct 2017, 7:06 pm

"with the endless amounts of different factory ammo around how would they know if he has loaded his own or if it were factory?"

I've often wondered that. Unless you tellem they won't have a clue.
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by gilmc » 13 Oct 2017, 7:01 am

Thanks everyone, in the middle of house painting hence the late reply (trust me I'd prefer to be at the range!). Now to answer some of the comments before the next coat. The rifle is 6 years old and has less than 500 rounds through it. I mainly hunt pigs, goats, foxes, roos (tagged of course) and long range bunnies but do very little range shooting. The type of projectiles I've tried so far with mixed results - Speer 55gn HPBT - Nosler 55gn ballistic tip - Hornady 55 & 60gn VMAX - Sierra 55gn SP, 60gn HP. Factory loads tested - Winchester 55gn SP (absolutely useless) - Sako 50&55gn gamehead (sprayed every where). Outback Ammo 69gn Matchking. The Outback Ammo has been the most successful for accuracy but at $35 a box from local store can be very expensive plus no good for hunting.
I thought the accuracy might have been me so got a friend to test it with same results. I did have success with Nolser ballistic tip 55gn using 24.5gn 2206h with .5moa at 100m but at 200m started to spray out to 4" random groups.
Wm.Traynor: magazine can only take rounds no more than 57.8. The scope is a Leupold VX1 and I've checked mounts seating etc. The property owner on my last shoot suggested trying another scope as he had issues with the Leupold. I'm going to put my old Tasco on and test that.
bladeracer: "Have you tried the 69-77gn bullets?" No, with these projectiles are they seated the same lenght as a 55gn projectile, this is were I'm getting confused about the overall case length for the larger projectiles, plus not sure if they fit in my magazines.
BRNO_Bigot: "If NONE of them give you any joy, maybe having the rifle looked at by a decent gunsmith will help - bedding, scope mounts, crown etc, etc ..." Problem in Canberra is finding a decent gunsmith, last one I went to ruined my previous .223.
Rikta: "My go to load was 69gr Noslers over 23.2gr of BM2 for consistent .5 Moa groups with some around .3 Moa for 5 shots. Do you seat these the same as a 55gn pill, what is the overall case lenght?
Thanks again all, I really appreciate the advice. Now back to the bloody painting! :drinks: :drinks: :drinks:
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by BRNO_Bigot » 13 Oct 2017, 9:09 am

Gunsmith - have you tried talking to Russ le Maitre?

I'm in Canberra myself, BTW.
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by gilmc » 13 Oct 2017, 9:23 am

BRNO_Bigot wrote:Gunsmith - have you tried talking to Russ le Maitre?

I'm in Canberra myself, BTW.


No didn't know about him. I will email him, thanks
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by bladeracer » 13 Oct 2017, 5:13 pm

gilmc wrote:bladeracer: "Have you tried the 69-77gn bullets?"

No, with these projectiles are they seated the same lenght as a 55gn projectile, this is were I'm getting confused about the overall case length for the larger projectiles, plus not sure if they fit in my magazines.[/quote]

No, ADI lists 2.26" for the 77gn which is inside your 57.8mm mag length.
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by Wm.Traynor » 13 Oct 2017, 7:04 pm

gilmc
It is about overall cartridge length; the loaded round from the base of the case to the bullet-tip. Measure the OCL with the bullet seated against the rifling. Shorten that length by 0.030" to give you some bullet jump to the lands and safe pressures for the starting loads. Try that length through the mag to see if it fits and try to chamber it.
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by marksman » 13 Oct 2017, 7:11 pm

I have the impression that the rifle has never shot better than you have described, what I would be looking at is bedding, bolt lug contact, crown, trigger tuning
but if the barrel is a fowler and has been since you got it probably fire lapping, if this does not improve it replace the barrel
I have tweaked a couple of these and they do shoot very well before and after tweaking,
utube has a few vids on tweaking tikkas and how to get a longer OAL in your mag or you could try
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by Oldbloke » 13 Oct 2017, 7:40 pm

I don't own one one but everyone says they shoot great.

Consider the following,
Bedding?
Swap the scope.
Check all screws
Nothing touching the barrel? E. G a take down screw.
Barrel crown looks OK.
Clean barrel?
Copper fouling?
When reloading bullet should be say. 010" to .020" off the lands.
Is the barrel free floating or has pressure under the barrel at the forearm tip?
Any groups you can upload?
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by gilmc » 16 Oct 2017, 10:59 am

Oldbloke wrote:I don't own one one but everyone says they shoot great.

Consider the following,
Bedding?
Swap the scope.
Check all screws
Nothing touching the barrel? E. G a take down screw.
Barrel crown looks OK.
Clean barrel?
Copper fouling?
When reloading bullet should be say. 010" to .020" off the lands.
Is the barrel free floating or has pressure under the barrel at the forearm tip?
Any groups you can upload?


I'm taking the rifle to a gunsmith to have it checked out, I have also found a guy who specialises in reloading and I will be see him early November to look at loads etc.
Thanks for the advice
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by blair993 » 01 Dec 2017, 1:34 pm

Did you get your 223 all sorted. I have same rifle with 18" barrel( suppressed) and every load 53vmax,60vmax,55 bt nosler, 69tmk, 75eldm shoot moa or less, bm2 for the lighter pills or ar2208 powder for heavier. None have got much better than 1/2 to 3/4 moa. Using a water's longer mag to increase the coal.
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by fxol » 02 Dec 2017, 7:15 am

Interested to hear the outcome.My Steyr Pro Varmint 1:9 shoots 50gr zmax with 26 grains of 2206H. Everything points to the rifle in my view.
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by SCJ429 » 03 Feb 2018, 8:58 pm

How did you go getting your Tikka to shoot? I have not seen one that didn't impress. Perhaps the recoil lug is loose or undersized? Did you end up talking to Russell?
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by Flyer » 05 Feb 2018, 1:07 pm

For the record, my mate has a Tikka T3 .223 1:8 and I have a Sako 223 1:8 and we both have pet loads for 53gr projectiles that shoot sub 1/2" at 100m. His is 53gr Vmax, 25.3gr of BM, OSA case, Winchester primer and mine is 53gr Varmageddon, 25.1gr BM2, OSA case, BR4 primer.

Now both those projectiles are fairly long for their weight - measured .830" for the Vmax and .815" for the Varams - so take that for what it's worth. It's not actually projectile weight that determines twist stability, it's length. Most plastic tipped bullets tend to be longer than their HP/SP equivalents.

My rifle also shoots factory 55gr Buffalo River Blitzking and Soft Point ammo really well - probably better than the 69gr factory ammo.
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by gilmc » 09 Mar 2018, 8:32 am

Unfortunately due to family illness everything got put on hold from nov-feb.

I have finally found out the problem with my Tika. After more visits to the range and testing more loads, replacing the scope mounts with no improvement I took the rifle to a gunsmith, Russel le Maitre and he found an issue with the barrel. A small area near the top of the barrel has patch's that look like rust or pits. According to Russel this was caused by sulfur leeching out of the metal and he said that nothing I did or could have done would have prevented this and that it was a fault in the manufacturing process (he said he has seen this before). This caused the accuracy problems as the projectile was damaged before leaving the barrel. I took the rifle back to the shop where I purchased it and they have sent it back to Baretta to inspect and hopefully they will replace the barrel. Unfortunately the shops previous gunsmith did not keep records of my past visits regarding the problems with the rifle so I don't hold out much hope of Barreta admitting fault.
If Barretta don’t come to the party then I’ll have to decide on replacing the barrel or buying a new one.
Thanks everyone.
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by SCJ429 » 13 Mar 2018, 12:50 pm

Well done, good on Russell for diagnosing the problem. Hopefully you get a new barrel and finally start shooting some good groups. Let us know how you get on.
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by gilmc » 14 Mar 2018, 6:54 pm

SCJ429 wrote:Well done, good on Russell for diagnosing the problem. Hopefully you get a new barrel and finally start shooting some good groups. Let us know how you get on.


Looking at all the options I ended up buying a tikka t3x lite s/s .223 with a 1:12 twist with a few extras (cost of new barrel not much different to buying new). Now have to wait the 28 days before I can pick it up. Also got a good price for a trade in on the old tikka so I very happy how it all turned out. The Shooters Warehouse in Mitchell were brilliant and the the sales guy Oliver was extremely helpful and couldn’t do enough, had issues with this place in the past and heard many bad reports but this time they were brilliant. Looking forward to trying it out in 4 weeks!
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by sungazer » 14 Mar 2018, 7:00 pm

Doesnt sound like the outcome you should of got. Tikka or Barreta should of had a new riffle out to you ASAP. Manufacturing defects are under warranty and good customer service should be extended in these cases to make up for the inconvenience. Sorry to hear that it cost you $$ as well as heartache, time and frustration
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by crows2332 » 15 Mar 2018, 12:17 pm

Hopefully you'll have your replacement rig soon.
Can't speak highly enough for Russell's knowledge, and Oliver from Shooters. Both great.
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Re: reloading .223 1in8 twist

Post by Oldbloke » 15 Mar 2018, 4:51 pm

gilmc wrote:
SCJ429 wrote:Well done, good on Russell for diagnosing the problem. Hopefully you get a new barrel and finally start shooting some good groups. Let us know how you get on.


Looking at all the options I ended up buying a tikka t3x lite s/s .223 with a 1:12 twist with a few extras (cost of new barrel not much different to buying new). Now have to wait the 28 days before I can pick it up. Also got a good price for a trade in on the old tikka so I very happy how it all turned out. The Shooters Warehouse in Mitchell were brilliant and the the sales guy Oliver was extremely helpful and couldn’t do enough, had issues with this place in the past and heard many bad reports but this time they were brilliant. Looking forward to trying it out in 4 weeks!


Yep, that's what I was have done. At 6 yrs old claiming warranty would have been a hard ask.
When I buy something I test and use it a fair bit in the first year for that reason. Best to have the bugs, if any sorted early.
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