ADI 308 Cases with AR2208

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ADI 308 Cases with AR2208

Post by Hangfire » 28 Nov 2017, 8:51 pm

Hi All,

Working up some loads for my new Lithgow 308.

I am using Lee hand loading kits which throw minimum charge and have been doing this with .303 but new to .308

I have purchased a Lyman pocket scale as i want more accuracy then i flt the dipper were giving not to mention flexibility.

My concern currently is using AR2208 which for my 165 sst bullets is 42gr min to 46gr max charge at even 44gr i am looking at a compressed charge?

Is this normal for ADI brass?

Thankyou.
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Re: ADI 308 Cases with AR2208

Post by juststarting » 28 Nov 2017, 9:46 pm

I think you may be seating too deep. 44gr of 2208 should be just below compression.

You don't need to crimp for bolt action gun, so you don't need to seat them all the way down to the cannelure. Play around with depth. You shouldn't get compression unless load reference manual has 'C' or asterisk next to the charge weight number. However, with classic loader, you'll anyways load to SAAMI spec, without options to tweak seating depth, so that may be the issue. Perhaps it may be time for dies and press, because adjusting seating depth with a mallet is kinda lol worthy (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.red ... lee_loader)

As a side note, with 2208 from about 44 onwards you really haveto watch out for pressure. Personally, I've never went above 45, cases started showing signs, so I stopped there.
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Re: ADI 308 Cases with AR2208

Post by juststarting » 28 Nov 2017, 9:47 pm

By the way, how do you know you get compression?

It could be that the powder is just not settled... maybe tap on the case with your finger. Because the way you'd know is by hearing a 'crunch', which you won't hear while swinging mallet.
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Re: ADI 308 Cases with AR2208

Post by Hangfire » 28 Nov 2017, 10:26 pm

Re seating to deep i'm not yet to the bullet cannelure and its getting stiff knocking it down, I'm not to concerned re that as you mentioned above as long as my overall length is good.

At this point i'm looking to drop back to 43g for the first 20 and revisit 44g later. I was also planning to try 178r ELD bullets but will need to see how i go ith the ADI brass.
Last edited by Hangfire on 28 Nov 2017, 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ADI 308 Cases with AR2208

Post by juststarting » 28 Nov 2017, 10:49 pm

What's the OAL?
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Re: ADI 308 Cases with AR2208

Post by Hangfire » 28 Nov 2017, 11:00 pm

Current OAL is 71.15mm or 2.801
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Re: ADI 308 Cases with AR2208

Post by juststarting » 28 Nov 2017, 11:11 pm

Weird, I am judging this off a different, but similar projectile. Can you shake the cartridge and hear the powder rattle?
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Re: ADI 308 Cases with AR2208

Post by Oldbloke » 29 Nov 2017, 5:33 am

"However, with classic loader, you'll anyways load to SAAMI spec, without options to tweak seating depth, so that may be the issue."

Huh, pretty sure mine is adjustable.
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Re: ADI 308 Cases with AR2208

Post by combo12 » 29 Nov 2017, 6:19 am

ADI brass could be milspec & thicker and hence reduced case capacity. 44gn 2208 would not need compression under normal circumstances. Worth checking case capacity with water against other makes of brass?
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Re: ADI 308 Cases with AR2208

Post by Hangfire » 29 Nov 2017, 6:23 am

combo12 wrote:ADI brass could be milspec & thicker and hence reduced case capacity. 44gn 2208 would not need compression under normal circumstances. Worth checking case capacity with water against other makes of brass?


This is the generally info i am getting, How would this affect max loads? if you can fit the projectile under the maximum case OAL would it be safe to go up to max as reported in the manuals?
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Re: ADI 308 Cases with AR2208

Post by Hangfire » 29 Nov 2017, 6:28 am

Oldbloke wrote:"However, with classic loader, you'll anyways load to SAAMI spec, without options to tweak seating depth, so that may be the issue."

Huh, pretty sure mine is adjustable.


Confirm its definitely adjustable i was working my way down to the cannelure as a start point wasn't worrying about close to the lands etc as yet. After the comment above i looked around and didn't realise the cannelure is not overly important in a bolt action, as long as its under max OAL and chambers into the rifle would that be correct?
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Re: ADI 308 Cases with AR2208

Post by combo12 » 29 Nov 2017, 6:33 am

Reluctant to give advice on that. Conventional wisdom is to be VERY careful when using milsurp brass for the reason of thicker brass means reduced case capacity hence an otherwise OK load gives higher pressure. Unless you know what to look for re pressure signs, approach max loads with extreme caution...
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Re: ADI 308 Cases with AR2208

Post by Stix » 29 Nov 2017, 7:38 am

I tried that brass in 7-08 & had no luck. I appeared to hit pressure immediately with low loads & was left scratching my head, but i can only put it down to the brass being thicker.
From memory the ADI 308 brass weighed some 30 grains more than Winchester 308.

Start lower, work up....
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Re: ADI 308 Cases with AR2208

Post by Hangfire » 29 Nov 2017, 8:02 am

Thx all, i had figured starting at 44 would be safe but will leave that 1 round and work up from 42
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Re: ADI 308 Cases with AR2208

Post by Hangfire » 29 Nov 2017, 8:10 am

Last query, with these reports of higher pressure due to thicker brass is that translating to more bullet velocity with less powder or is the pressure purely around the case and how its handling the load?
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Re: ADI 308 Cases with AR2208

Post by marksman » 29 Nov 2017, 10:12 am

as far as compression for a 44gr load it does depend on the case internal volume that can be checked by weighing an empty case then filling it with water and weighing again, no air bubbles, this needs to be done for five cases minimum then added up then divided by five and there is an average
your cases need to be fireformed in your chamber before testing
to test your reloads against the reloading books loads you need to use a chrony and check velocity of theirs against yours
the reloading books/manuals are just a reference not a bible set in stone, your real life information is more valuable
treat your rifle/reloads as an individual, anything you learn from this rifle is for this rifle and cannot be taken for granted that it is transferable to others

to answer your last querie, you will get higher velocity with more pressure to a point
you will also get less pressure by using a longer OAL till you touch the lands, then the pressure spikes
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Re: ADI 308 Cases with AR2208

Post by juststarting » 29 Nov 2017, 10:20 am

Hangfire wrote:Thx all, i had figured starting at 44 would be safe but will leave that 1 round and work up from 42


Please don't take this as an insult or anything. As I read this, especially the "I had figured starting at 44" bit, you're playing with fire or explosives to be exact and this is an accident waiting to happen. Perhaps, read about load development or something. You obviously have a grasp of the mechanical process, but to just assume that upper limits of charge is a good starting point suggests you need a bit more theory and safety awareness. You don't start load development 4% below max...
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Re: ADI 308 Cases with AR2208

Post by Hangfire » 29 Nov 2017, 1:00 pm

Appreciate your point and dont disagree. Part of my reasoning behind 44 is that is roughly what the dipper was throwing which according to Lee should be more like 42.4 for varget / ar2208, and it was in the middle of what the manual stated. But as per other advise above will use the manual as more of a guide and just start low. Glad i bought the scales for the 308 as i have been reloading the .303 prevously just using the dipper that comes with the lee hand loading kit without issue.
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Re: ADI 308 Cases with AR2208

Post by No1Mk3 » 29 Nov 2017, 2:38 pm

G'day juststarting,
Can't agree, 44 is mid-point of the ADI listed loads for that combination of projectile and powder, all data is well below SAAMI to allow for variables in brass, primer ( a BIG factor in pressure variation!), rifle used etc. To take the mid point as a start is not unreasonable. Load development to find accuracy does require a starting point,usually at the lower end of listed data but the upper limit of where you go is determined by data and actual result. My current load using the same components as Hangfire is 47.2g, in a PH1200 action and Black Mountain barrel, I got there from 43.0 and ladder testing.
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Read marksman's post, twice. But understand that compression loads are not a good thing for mallet seating! Also, higher velocity does not mean better accuracy, your rifle may find a sweet spot at much lower speeds, so ladder testing, with a chronograph to help if possible, is the only way to work up. Cheers

PS: Being NATO spec brass, the water capacity is 46.0g compared to an average of mid-50's in most commercial brass.
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Re: ADI 308 Cases with AR2208

Post by Stix » 29 Nov 2017, 6:04 pm

No1Mk3 wrote: ... ... To take the mid point as a start is not unreasonable... ... ...


I hear what you are saying No1, but i believe unless you actually KNOW FOR SURE what result you will get, im a fan of starting lower...particularly in this case using heavier brass.

Im not arguing with you as it seems you know more than i...but I have made the 'assumption' my mid range load will be fine with my old 22-250 & had flattened primers & tight cases with some very snappy recoil...all from "assuming" (& being told by "seasoned experts"), a mid load will be fine with different brass...boy was i (& they) wrong.

That coupled with trying adi 308 brass in my 7-08 starting with loads under adi min, & hitting pressure (prob due to neck clearance best i can tell)...with this i was also told "you should be ok",...from these experiences i ALWAYS weigh my brass now, regardless...!!!, & if im unsure i start lower...or i only start mid point if using same brass & having used a similar proj in that rifle.

Obviously you have a thorough understanding of what his (the op) result may be, but he obviously doesnt, & i believe he is best advised that to start mid point with a heavier brass he has not used is not ness a the best idea.

Not arguing, just my opinion based on my own experiences.
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Re: ADI 308 Cases with AR2208

Post by Sub.4MOAHowa » 02 Dec 2017, 6:12 am

As with many comments already above, it appears load development here is starting at top end of charge limits, so caution.

When reloading ADI brass it appears to me that 44gn or more of 2208 powder is at 100% case capacity.
If the OAL is "short' the load is probably compressed some.

I've just looked up Lithgow site, looks like the .308 is 1in11 so maybe "my" loads wont be of help but the concept of "working up" will.
I shoot ADI brass with 2208 in a Howa1500 Varmint, 1in10, 20" barrel

I reload with a $250 Lee Challenger Kit and Lee Ultimate Die Set so I'm not using expensive gear here.
Collet Die only on fire-formed cases and Factory Crimp finish.
Groups are 0.5MOA and sometimes under 0.3MOA with bipod and bag. A "bad" group is 1MOA at 100m
The Howa with my pet load does some good things out to 700yards, max at local range, as well as outshoots all factory ammo I've tried in it.

It is noted that ADI brass does appear to have less capacity (ie. is thicker brass) than other brass I've reloaded (Win, Federal,etc)
Using 168gn Hornady ZMAX projectiles
Winchester LRPrimers
Trim Length 2.208"
OAL 2.800"

I worked up from 41gn of 2208
Everyone told me the sweet load in the 1in10 Howa is 44.2gn 2208
It shot like garbage - 1.5" or more groups at 100m
(Note this load does shoot well in a 24" Howa)

You haven't said what you using the .308 for?
Short 100m or long range target? Hunting? Both?
Reason is the hotter the load the more wear, trimming required, etc
Do you need the velocity for range?

When I backed loads off groups got tighter and way less muzzle flip (a 20" barrel moves a lot with 44.2gn shot)
Less powder and you often don't even need to trim brass saving heaps of time on reloads.
I get same results at 100m with 42.5gn 2208 as with 43.4gn with less wear.
I use the higher load as I've started to shoot 400-700yard target and will use the .308 in the bush, so I want the ZMAX to have fast terminal results.

After all that, my point being, if you're target shooting you may find a more precise/kinder on gear load at 41.5-42.5gn
so why go with a harsher charge?

As usual, these loads are safe in my rifle. Work up loads always.
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Re: ADI 308 Cases with AR2208

Post by AZZA'S HJ47 » 03 Dec 2017, 10:27 pm

I have found with both my tikka t3x in 223 that with a few projectiles that they shot better with the lowest charge and found the same with some of my 243 rounds also not necessarily starting charges but well south of max loads. I also learnt that sticking to the same brass will also save you a heap of time some of the Winchester cases i have reloaded have had that much case capacity difference between other brands could potentially case damage if not serious injury if i just through the same charge in them.

Start at minimum charges and work your way up. If you get stuck post some pictures.
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Re: ADI 308 Cases with AR2208

Post by Bugsy1976 » 30 Sep 2021, 11:10 pm

Hi hangfire, just going through some old posts.

I use 44.6 gr of 2208 and seat to 2.82” C.O.L

I’m not sure how to post a pic, but I got a 3 shot group within 10mm, one inside another.
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