To Micrometer seat, or not to...?

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To Micrometer seat, or not to...?

Post by Stix » 13 Dec 2017, 4:42 pm

Im toying with getting some new seating dies...
Im a hunter & along with that also punch paper...
All my die sets are standard Redding 3 die sets...
Wanting a better/more precise method of seating a variety of bullets...

I currently have a Forster BR seater die on loan from someone for one of my cartridges, & find it great as compared with the Redding seater dies (which i find are horrible for getting quick seating depth to within even 5 thou).

Im toying with buying some seater dies, & wondered if i should just bite the bullet & buy the Forster Micro adjust ones & be done with it....what have you keen-as-ocd-riddled shooters ended up doing, or how would you advise i go--just cry now & go micro, or save $$$ on seater dies & just get the standard BR jobbies...?

...(Im leaning towards the more expensive Micro adjust, but thought id ask for some kind of shooters religious approval or something...)
I was thinking of getting the Forster units from BRT...so if there are any other suggestions on what to buy brand/type wise im all ears...!
(if its of interest, calibers most shot are .20, .22, & 7mm...soon too add a .243 to that as well)
Cheers
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Re: To Micrometer seat, or not to...?

Post by Cooper » 13 Dec 2017, 5:32 pm

I have the Forster Micro seater for 6.5 Creedmoor and have just order one from BRT for my 223. Because I liked my Creedmoor one so much. At around $145 I think there are pretty good value. I mainly have Lee dies and few RCBS dies. I found the Lee seater die wasn't working great with the ELD and VLD projectiles. The Lee die was marking the projectile near the tip. With the Forster Micro seater you can easily dial in a new seating depth. I am going to be trying a few different projectiles in the 223 and I reckon just being able to see when the seating die set will be very handy. I'm a fan!
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Re: To Micrometer seat, or not to...?

Post by Mitch » 13 Dec 2017, 5:49 pm

Love my forster micrometer dies!
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Re: To Micrometer seat, or not to...?

Post by Wm.Traynor » 13 Dec 2017, 7:39 pm

To echo the advice of my old Rifle Club Armourer and F-Class guru, you won't need them unless using VLD bullets.
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Re: To Micrometer seat, or not to...?

Post by Stix » 13 Dec 2017, 10:45 pm

Thanks guys
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Re: To Micrometer seat, or not to...?

Post by sungazer » 14 Dec 2017, 7:26 am

I recently bought a micrometer seating die. It turned out that even using Hybrid bullets the seating stem was touching the end of the projectile. Making it the same as a dead length seating die such as the lee at $30. This results in seating length errors as the projectiles are all over the place in length at the pointy end. So I had to take the die apart and grind the seating stem to the same profile as the projectile and then polish it to mirror finish so it wouldn't grab and pull the projectile out a little as the press is released. so even spending $2$$ the die still needed work.
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Re: To Micrometer seat, or not to...?

Post by Stix » 14 Dec 2017, 7:49 am

sungazer wrote:I recently bought a micrometer seating die. It turned out that even using Hybrid bullets the seating stem was touching the end of the projectile. Making it the same as a dead length seating die such as the lee at $30. This results in seating length errors as the projectiles are all over the place in length at the pointy end. So I had to take the die apart and grind the seating stem to the same profile as the projectile and then polish it to mirror finish so it wouldn't grab and pull the projectile out a little as the press is released. so even spending $2$$ the die still needed work.


That sounds like a hoot...!
Something i wont have time for...ah well...i just ordered them...

I already have that trouble with some standard proj's in my 7-08...
Fun times ahead...
Ill ask a fitter i know if he can do it for me.

Thanks for that sungazer.
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Re: To Micrometer seat, or not to...?

Post by marksman » 14 Dec 2017, 9:21 am

Cooper wrote:I have the Forster Micro seater for 6.5 Creedmoor and have just order one from BRT for my 223. Because I liked my Creedmoor one so much. At around $145 I think there are pretty good value. I mainly have Lee dies and few RCBS dies. I found the Lee seater die wasn't working great with the ELD and VLD projectiles. The Lee die was marking the projectile near the tip. With the Forster Micro seater you can easily dial in a new seating depth. I am going to be trying a few different projectiles in the 223 and I reckon just being able to see when the seating die set will be very handy. I'm a fan!


with regard to the lee seater stem you need to tweak it to use vld's,
firstly you need to drill out the centre hole of the stem deeper so the projectile point does not touch and is seated by the ogive not the point
then polish the seater stem hole especially the edges so the seater stem does not mark the projectile,
I polish the hole with an old cleaning brush covered with fine steel wool and autosol in a drill, then clean and use
all surfaces work easier and better polished,
some die makers offer vld seater stems as an option

and as for the micro tops, I have them but once they are set don't use them again till resetting my oal so they look good but I don't care about them much
if you were to be doing a seating depth test at the range while reloading there, it would be nice but I dont think I have come across one yet that measures consistently in thou, you still have to use your micrometer to check oal, I rate forster dies very highly they are very well made, much better than some of the others especially if you have a fetish for precision shooting
much the same if you reload for a couple of rifle's the same cal with different oal to make a dummy for resetting your oal on the seater

IMHO to get away from the always chasing the lands game because you are just touching, you either jam your projectile or give a good jump
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Re: To Micrometer seat, or not to...?

Post by sungazer » 14 Dec 2017, 10:04 am

Yep I did the same with my lee dies as well after realizing the error of my ways. I didnt expect to have to do it with the expensive micrometer die though. Not even VLD's and some of the smaller lightest weight varmint projectiles as well. Only really worked well I found out for the rounder nose type.
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Re: To Micrometer seat, or not to...?

Post by Lorgar » 14 Dec 2017, 12:48 pm

Stix wrote:Im a hunter & along with that also punch paper...
All my die sets are standard Redding 3 die sets...
Wanting a better/more precise method of seating a variety of bullets...


In answer to "to Micrometer seat, or not"... I'd say it depends where your priorities lay and how much you want to dedicate to it mate.

I'm primarily a hunter, and punch paper for fun also. Keyword there being "fun", I basically only ever go to the range these when I'm taking a few mates without licenses to shoot gongs and paper for a laugh.

I'm also using the Redding dies, neck-sizing my 7mm-08 brass, and trim the neck, that's all. With this basic process my T3 shoots 0.4 MOA which is more ample for what I do and expect of it.

Is forking out the cash and the extra time going to add value to you, or just become and extra chore and consume time?

For me it's the later, that's my 2c.
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Re: To Micrometer seat, or not to...?

Post by sungazer » 14 Dec 2017, 5:02 pm

I set up my dies as per the instructions and luckily at first I didnt have a problem although it may have been netter if I had it at first. Anyway I now have two 308 both chambered by the same smith using the same reamer. One a Remington 700 the other a Barnard. For some reason I decided to do a full length resize after about 5 neck sizing's. Well after that my Barnard started to have lots of misfires. I eventually built a comparitor so I could see how much difference was between a fired case and a full length resized one from the base of the case (bolt face) to the datum line (or a point close to it depending on your manufacturing tolerances) I found that there was at least 7 thou difference in the ones that failed to fir in the Barnard.
I ran these through the Remington 700 which hits a lot harder and 18 out of 20 went off two still failed to fire. I then emptied these cases put a new primer in and reloaded them, however this time with the projectile 10 thou jammed into the lands to stop the case moving forward. both fired and the cases are now the same as all the fired ones.
Now I hope I can use these cases just neck sized and seat the projectiles to any depth I want and achieve reliable ignition.
1) having a device to measure where you are at is great you are able to quantify things
2) Again having a micrometer die is great so you can quantify things. But you must take it apart learn how it works while apart put your intended projectiles in to the seater and test for fit make sure it will contact squarely at the point that is specified for that projectile.
Its all a good learning process
In the end they all basically work the same way just some better than others.
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Re: To Micrometer seat, or not to...?

Post by marksman » 14 Dec 2017, 9:16 pm

sungazer wrote:I set up my dies as per the instructions and luckily at first I didnt have a problem although it may have been netter if I had it at first. Anyway I now have two 308 both chambered by the same smith using the same reamer. One a Remington 700 the other a Barnard. For some reason I decided to do a full length resize after about 5 neck sizing's. Well after that my Barnard started to have lots of misfires. I eventually built a comparitor so I could see how much difference was between a fired case and a full length resized one from the base of the case (bolt face) to the datum line (or a point close to it depending on your manufacturing tolerances) I found that there was at least 7 thou difference in the ones that failed to fir in the Barnard.
I ran these through the Remington 700 which hits a lot harder and 18 out of 20 went off two still failed to fire. I then emptied these cases put a new primer in and reloaded them, however this time with the projectile 10 thou jammed into the lands to stop the case moving forward. both fired and the cases are now the same as all the fired ones.
Now I hope I can use these cases just neck sized and seat the projectiles to any depth I want and achieve reliable ignition.
1) having a device to measure where you are at is great you are able to quantify things
2) Again having a micrometer die is great so you can quantify things. But you must take it apart learn how it works while apart put your intended projectiles in to the seater and test for fit make sure it will contact squarely at the point that is specified for that projectile.
Its all a good learning process
In the end they all basically work the same way just some better than others.


a little tip for you sungazer, when you are setting up your full length die never ever read the instructions
if you adjust your full length dies to there recommendations you are fire-forming every time you full length size, you will never get consistency period
take your firing pin out of the bolt and adjust your die till you can fit the over sized case into the chamber but the bolt has a crush fit,
so the bolt will not quite close on its own say 3/4 shut and you have to push it down to close
some full length size to a 2 thou tolerance, so 2 thou more than the bolt shut, measured with a comparitor, I like just under or how I have just written
also any die used that has a lock ring don't lock the ring, let it wobble it will find it's own straightness if it can wobble
hope this makes sence to you :drinks:
the two that did not go off had incorrect head-space so they were pushed forward when the firing pin hit, lucky boy :thumbsup:
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Re: To Micrometer seat, or not to...?

Post by sungazer » 14 Dec 2017, 9:30 pm

Not so Lucky I used 123 rounds in the weekend prior to score 60 scoring shots and 10 sighters. That is I had 59 shots hat failed to go off in competition. It certainly helped my follow through and flinch. I noticed the last few days when practicing on some gongs I could see the bullet strike before i heard the plink
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Re: To Micrometer seat, or not to...?

Post by brett1868 » 14 Dec 2017, 11:01 pm

Micrometer seating dies work best if you're trimming Meplat for consistent Meplat to ogive and then sorting by ogive to base. As an exercise, seat 5 rounds then check using a OAL gauge and ill bet there's a difference. I machined a OAL insert to match my chamber and seat a fraction long, measure, adjust die, seat and remeasure. I can highly recommend the "Hoover" Meplat trimmers and if you send them a few projectiles they'll custom make a trimmer body for you :)
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Re: To Micrometer seat, or not to...?

Post by marksman » 15 Dec 2017, 8:53 am

sungazer wrote:Not so Lucky I used 123 rounds in the weekend prior to score 60 scoring shots and 10 sighters. That is I had 59 shots hat failed to go off in competition. It certainly helped my follow through and flinch. I noticed the last few days when practicing on some gongs I could see the bullet strike before i heard the plink


that's way way to many failing to fire sungazer, your full length die shortens the headspace way to much the way it is set up
I recon its a buzz myself shooting gongs at distance and hearing the whack after you see the strike, when I'm playing at distance I use a camera as well
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Re: To Micrometer seat, or not to...?

Post by sungazer » 16 Dec 2017, 9:48 pm

I know that and hence made up a comparitior so I could measure the head space and once the case's were fired I was able to check what the dimensions of the chamber is. Good news all round really the chamber is nice and well in spec and by seating the projectiles so they are 5-10 thou jammed no problem in them going off. So once they are all once fired again (some virgin brass kept separate) wont be full sized again until I really need to, then when I do I will have a way to measure the shoulder set back and adjust die accordingly. The problem really doesn't happen with the Rem 700 with the exact same chamber, but it hit hard and you can see the impact movement the bolt firing causes when just dry firing and watching a target. All learning the hard and never forget way.
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Re: To Micrometer seat, or not to...?

Post by marksman » 17 Dec 2017, 8:37 am

the shoulder setback can be measured with headspace gauges sold by hornady, they dont cost that much
www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmKeByFvVgY
you can also just use the method I described earlier to adjust your full length die so you have a custom fit for your chamber
as once it is headspaced to your chamber it is headspaced but it does take a couple of firings to have a perfect chamber fit for your case
and the reason you are having more misfire's with one than the other even though the chambers are the same is the firing pin protrusion I recon
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Re: To Micrometer seat, or not to...?

Post by Gwion » 28 Dec 2017, 5:33 am

Stix wrote:
sungazer wrote:I recently bought a micrometer seating die. It turned out that even using Hybrid bullets the seating stem was touching the end of the projectile. Making it the same as a dead length seating die such as the lee at $30. This results in seating length errors as the projectiles are all over the place in length at the pointy end. So I had to take the die apart and grind the seating stem to the same profile as the projectile and then polish it to mirror finish so it wouldn't grab and pull the projectile out a little as the press is released. so even spending $2$$ the die still needed work.


That sounds like a hoot...!
Something i wont have time for...ah well...i just ordered them...

I already have that trouble with some standard proj's in my 7-08...
Fun times ahead...
Ill ask a fitter i know if he can do it for me.

Thanks for that sungazer.


You can get a VLD seating stem if you didn't order one with the die.
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