Electronic Scales

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Electronic Scales

Post by JimTom » 20 Jan 2018, 7:57 am

G’day again.

I am just chasing peoples opinion on electronic vs balance beam scales. I know it has been asked before however the info available is a few years old.

I was recently reloading with an electronic set and found the scales to be up to 0.5gn different when weighing the same item. I borrowed a more expensive set and they were within 0.1gn every time.

I know a fella who swears by his RCBS 1010 balance beam. Are the newer models as good?

Is it a personal preference thing or is one better than the other?

Interested in hearing people’s opinion.
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by tom604 » 20 Jan 2018, 8:57 am

i have a lyman 6, they are a pretty good scale,they do throw .1 over consistently with bm2, not as consistently with 2206h :unknown: different size grains of powder? haven't tried the macca's straw trick as i just put the load .1 lower and i don't care with the 2206h as it's below max and i haven't noticed any difference with group size :thumbsup: the balance beams are good but take a lot longer,you have to use your powder thrower to get close then trickle in to get spot on load bullet, seat projectile then repeat, with electronic you set on auto and by the time the powder is in the bullet and projectile seated your ready to go again :clap: both can do the job and if you have the time a beam is cheaper but it gets old pretty quickly, buy once cry once, don't bother with cheap electronic i had the hornady one and it was .5 out on a good day :thumbsdown: your probably not going to load less than 50 at a time and if you load more the beam will do your head in :allegedly: just my 2cents :thumbsup:
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by JimTom » 20 Jan 2018, 9:09 am

Thanks Tom. Yes it was the Hornady one I had trouble with too.
I generally load about 100 at a time and I think the balance beam scale would do my head in.
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by bladeracer » 20 Jan 2018, 10:10 am

I use the GemPro250.
I had problems with it a couple months ago when it wouldn't weigh anything over 230gn, and was reading very low on powder charges, about half the weight so a very obvious error. I went looking for a reset button and discovered it had a set of batteries in it. I've only ever run it on mains power but the batteries were flat (nearly four years old), binned them and the problem disappeared.

I've never been a fan of throwers but last year I started using the Lee thrower with excellent accuracy. I still check every few charges on the scale to be sure, but it's always within a couple tenths at worst, and usually under one-tenth. If you shoot a ladder to determine the charge range where a couple-tenths variation makes no difference to point of impact the thrower is more than accurate enough.

I also use the Lee dippers for a lot of ammo as they're also very accurate - with practice. The 1.6cc dipper throws me a very accurate 7.5gn Trailboss load.
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by sungazer » 20 Jan 2018, 10:34 am

The Gempro 250 has a very good reputation. It would be probably in the top 5 for its price range plus a bit
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by JimTom » 20 Jan 2018, 11:50 am

Thanks for the reply fellas. Much appreciated. Just deciding whether to go for a good set of digital scales or a system like the ones mentioned above. Thanks again.
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by tom604 » 20 Jan 2018, 12:21 pm

i have heard good things about the gempro as well,still not as quick as an lyman or rcbs ,you need the touch with the thrower,something i never got the hang off :unknown: . the old time roo shooters used to fill the shell up to the top with powder then seat the projectile, must of worked up to that load/powder combo to make sure it still shot so i suppose a little bit of variation is fine :allegedly: :thumbsup:
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by sungazer » 20 Jan 2018, 12:38 pm

Both the thrower method or filling the case would be nearly identical they are both Volume metric measures. My loads dont go to the top of the case neck but certainly the bottom of the case neck it about right for 2206h and 2208.
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by JimTom » 20 Jan 2018, 1:09 pm

Since I already had a good powder thrower, trickled, etc, I decided on a descent set of RCBS digital scales. Would have loved the Lyman gen6 or similar however, considering I’ll
only be doing a hundred or two at a time, I found the additional expense a little hard to justify.
Thanks again for everyone’s input. Sincerely appreciate it.
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by bladeracer » 20 Jan 2018, 1:17 pm

sungazer wrote:My loads dont go to the top of the case neck but certainly the bottom of the case neck it about right for 2206h and 2208.


My .204 load the powder heaps above the case mouth with AR2206H. No pressure signs despite being 1gn over ADI max.
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by bigfellascott » 20 Jan 2018, 9:15 pm

I love my RCBS Chargemaster, it's dispensing the next charge whilst I seat the projectile, makes for a nice fluid process. I've checked the charges on my RCBS 505 beam scales and it seems to be pretty consistent most of the time, I use a Macca's straw in the dispenser and that has helped with the over throws that were occurring, overall I'm glad I bought it as it's sped up the reloading process which I personally find a bit boring these days.
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by JimTom » 20 Jan 2018, 10:53 pm

Thanks for the input bigfellascott. I can definitely see how that could speed up the process. I actually enjoy the reloading process (not as much as the shooting though) and find it almost therapeutic. Almost. As anyone who reloads knows, there isn’t anything as rewarding as shooting a tight group with your finely tuned reloads. Fortunetly I have enough spare time to piss fart about with a thrower and set of scales. That’s not to say I won’t change mind mind in the future.
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by marksman » 21 Jan 2018, 3:28 pm

not trying to say anyone is wrong with there methods and experience's but in my experience with the electronic scales I don't trust them at all :thumbsdown:
I nearly bought an rcbs chargemaster a few years ago but I had bought an accurate 308 with reloads reloaded using a chargemaster and quite often you would get a flyer with a louder bang, I pulled 100 reloads and found the powder to be exactly 105 grains over what it should have been for the 100 reloads, the weights were so up and down all over the shop, it wasn't an average of roughly 1 grain over in each case, I didn't buy the chargemaster and did a search of problems associated with the electronic scales and made my mind up that I would stick with my rcbs/ohaus balance beam 505 or 10/10 scale and a powder thrower with a trickler. I'm very surprised nobody else has chirped up and said anything about the problems with electronic scales
I think it does come down to what you are happy with and how high your expectations are with what you are doing
maybe my expectations are way to high for what I can realistically achieve :unknown:
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by sungazer » 21 Jan 2018, 4:36 pm

I have worked in the calibration field most of my life so I understand equipment specifications, uncertainty calculations, levels of confidence ect and just plain out reading and understanding specifications of electronic measuring devices. Then in the case of the cheaper/all there is also the way they measure and what programs are used to limit or average readings. I do find that specifications are sorely lacking for a lot of the cheaper electronic scales. Overall you tend to get what you pay for and with the cheaper electronic scales I would recommend getting a unit that has 10 times the resolution that you actually want to measure to. ie one extra decimal point. If you do that you are pretty well covered.
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by JimTom » 21 Jan 2018, 5:05 pm

Yes well that is a fair point marksman. The balance beam doesn’t lie, and like you say, there is a certain amount of uncertainty with anything electronic.
I learned my lesson with the cheaper set of electronic scales, and have purchased a more expensive RCBS set like Sungazer said, you only get what you pay for.
With the cheaper set I’d get two rounds in a 5c piece and the third would be a flyer. Although I’m no expert marksman, I don’t thjnk I’m that bad and put it down to inconsistent powder loads.
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jan 2018, 5:17 pm

Scooter wrote:With the cheaper set I’d get two rounds in a 5c piece and the third would be a flyer. Although I’m no expert marksman, I don’t thjnk I’m that bad and put it down to inconsistent powder loads.


With a three-round "group" I would think the chances of a "flier" are pretty good.
Try shooting twenty rounds and see how if there are any fliers, or if the group is simply larger.
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by JimTom » 21 Jan 2018, 5:32 pm

With a three-round "group" I would think the chances of a "flier" are pretty good.
Try shooting twenty rounds and see how if there are any fliers, or if the group is simply larger.[/quote]


Fair point mate.
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by marksman » 21 Jan 2018, 7:21 pm

what I said was a flyer with a louder bang, the reason I pulled the reloads and weighed the powder :thumbsdown:
the discrepancies from case to case was just to much for me to trust electronic scales, over and under charge
there are a heap of fixes for the electronic scales on the internet but really shouldn't they just work :unknown:
I do agree with what you sad Scooter about you get what you pay for even with balance beam scales :thumbsup:
the electronic scales have been around long enough now for some good ones to be about
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by sungazer » 21 Jan 2018, 7:59 pm

Its not a one sided story either
Scooter wrote:The balance beam doesn’t lie, and like you say, there is a certain amount of uncertainty with anything electronic.
There are plenty of sources for error in the balance beam as well. it is a good exercise to have a look at your method either way and look for things that could contribute an error.Write them all down and give them a value. I can give a whole uncertainties course but that is what you really need to do if your really Anal. otherwise an extra digit if it is stable is the way to go.
The cheaper scales like the Gempro were getting complaints about them being to sensitive. Well what do you expect when your measuring one milligram. So the manufacturer put in an averaging routine that slow the reading down. However it reduces accuracy and sensitivity. I am not about to pay $2000 for a god set of lab grade scales so I will do with the Chinese knock offs. Problem is you can add one kernel and the dampening circuit averages it out it wont change the displayed value untill it has changed about 0.005 gm or 5 milligrams.
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by juststarting » 21 Jan 2018, 11:41 pm

Scooter wrote:Thanks Tom. Yes it was the Hornady one I had trouble with too.
I generally load about 100 at a time and I think the balance beam scale would do my head in.


You are 110% correct. Been there, done that, not going back. I have both and I went through a few models of both.

To put it really simple, (brand new, 2nd hand is of course cheaper, sometimes by a lot) expect to pay at least $150 for good solid balance scales. And yes, they are mind numbingly slow.

Expect to pay $270+ for good digital scales. And yes, they do drift, but you see that on the dial and can recalibrate in 5 seconds. In fact, it's suggested you calibrate every so often regardless. Also, you want mains powered scales, not battery powered. You can have both, but battery only will go to sleep when idle - very annoying.

All high-precision scales will have issues, digital and balance. Room temperature for example will be a factor for both, air circulation, bench level and how you zero (balance) them.

There are also amazingly good digital scales for under $50 (drug dealers can't be wrong, ay), however the base plate is a bit small for a powder cup and you will end up hacking one yourself. Wen I used them, I used a cut down baby formula scoop.

Basic question here, is not how much you load, but how much are you willing to pay, once you get that under control, you will know what to buy. As far as digital vs manual, digital scales these days are just as precise and a lot faster, it's a better option, just need to know the budget to make a decision.
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by juststarting » 21 Jan 2018, 11:42 pm

p.s.
People on the Facebook reloading group often sell their unneeded gear a lot cheaper.
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by straightshooter » 22 Jan 2018, 7:26 am

sungazer
You have summed things up fairly neatly.
My son recently did some research work with low cost load cells and found that sub gram resolution needs to be extracted from the noise. For milligram resolution you are far deeper in the noise. This means that accuracy and repeatability are entirely dependant on the mechanical structure and the settling algorithm used. Good luck with cheap units.

Scooter
Beam balances can and do suffer from problems ranging from hysteresis and or friction in the bearings to true positioning of the scales and counter weights and even the effect of air movement. Again less so in high quality (read expensive) units but more likely to be experienced in cheap units.
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by bigfellascott » 22 Jan 2018, 9:25 am

What about a harrals powder thrower.
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by marksman » 22 Jan 2018, 9:47 am

bigfellascott wrote:What about a harrals powder thrower.


these do work very well, but so do some of the cheaper ones
especially with a good ohaus balance scale :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
fark the electronics, dont blow yer farken head off :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :drinks:
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by Bills Shed » 23 Jan 2018, 10:36 am

sungazer wrote: Overall you tend to get what you pay for and with the cheaper electronic scales I would recommend getting a unit that has 10 times the resolution that you actually want to measure to. ie one extra decimal point. If you do that you are pretty well covered.


I agree with this totally. I too have worked in the quality industry and have not seen to many beam balances and having the extra point of resolution is very telling. When you have a lab grade balance and can measure to .02 of a grain, it evens out many errors very quickly.
You do need to look after them though. If you can not wait the 30 min to let it warm up,(at least), do not have a stable temp and your area is subject to drafts, you are wasting your money, get a beam balance. My room is not temp controlled and in Winter the temp can fluctuate quite a bit so the electronic balance never gets turned off, in Summer there are no problems.

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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by tom604 » 24 Jan 2018, 8:38 pm

they don't use beam scales in the bullet factory, they probably did when they were building pyramids but times change ;) and i would bet a dollar or two that you would not notice if your load was 47.30 or 47.35 :problem: a half grain of powder would be unnoticeable for 90 percent plus of shooters , it may help if you have ocd :geek: but by the time you fiddle around with a pair of tweesers to pick out that offending grain :roll: you may find that its taken you all night to load five or so bullets :thumbsdown: :allegedly: :thumbsup:
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by Stix » 24 Jan 2018, 9:29 pm

tom604 wrote:... ... :it may help if you have ocd :geek: but by the time you fiddle around with a pair of tweesers to pick out that offending grain :roll: you may find that its taken you all night to load five or so bullets :thumbsdown: :allegedly: :thumbsup:


Tweasers...?!!?!
Just touch your very clean finger on your forehead (or somewhere that gets a little of the oil from your skin) & carefully dip it in the powder dish to pick up 3 granules--wipe 2 of them off with your thumb...
One second is all it takes mate...! :? :)

Gees sorry about that, that was my ocd talking...!!
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by in2anity » 24 Jan 2018, 9:32 pm

I’m a recent gen-6 convert; without the little constrictor insert it often has a .1gr variance, seems to be worse with bulkier powders like TB. With the constrictor in you get better accuracy, but it slows you down a lot (which somewhat defeats the purpose of the thing). Honestly that’s quite acceptable for me as Im mainly shooting metallic silhouette (with a bit of hunting on the side); even with such a discrepancy, accuracy is still plenty good enough out of all my rifles.

Oh and BTW I forgot to mention moving from a beam to this has changed my life! Soo much faster now!
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by juststarting » 25 Jan 2018, 12:47 am

Stix wrote:wipe 2 of them off with your thumb...
One second is all it takes mate...! :? :)

Gees sorry about that, that was my ocd talking...!!
:lol:


So I have that OCD when I am loading for some of my rifles, it's pretty fast using good digital scales.

Stix, I thought I was the only one! That's pretty much what I do. Tweezers, sheesh.
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Re: Electronic Scales

Post by sungazer » 25 Jan 2018, 8:44 am

i just use a flat blade screwdriver to separate a granule from the heard and push him out of the pan back into the trickler. I don't want my sweat and oil inside the next case. :lol:
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