Weight sorting brass

[Stix]

For those of you who weight sort their brass...

Ive just sorted over 500 cases into .1 grain lots...

Sorted...

2018-03-14 18.16.03.jpg (1.45 MiB) Viewed 5676 times

(Looks like the north korean army marching over the table... )
In this instance there is a difference of 10 grains from the lightest to the heaviest over 400 cases.

So im curious to know what do you group them in/how do you group them/what do you consider to be too large a spread...?... (for example lots of 3 grains, or .3grains)...?

Once weight sorted, do you go to the extent of checking volume...?

And does that grouping differ for varmint vs target shooting for you.

Also, at what point of weight difference do you test for different charge weights...? (I guess this may differ for different cartridges, but interested to hear what you do & for what cartridge(s)).

And finally what do you do with the extreme stragglers...? (For example the few extreme light & heavy cases--in this case i have quite a few).

[bigrich]

hey stix, have you thought about setting them up to fall in a pattern like domino's ? ya could get in the guinuss book of records mate !

[Wm.Traynor]

I can't recall the member's name Stix but at least one bloke on here goes by volume.

[sungazer]

There are a lot of depends in that question. Like how many fall into each group. 10 grains is lot for any case I would have thought. I weight sort but dont get that sort of spread but pay for the privileged up front as the manufacturer weight sorts. I am looking to put boxes of 50 together as I normally shoot 36 or a few more in a session. I then keep that 50 together for its life. i usually have at least two boxes of the same usage and age close weight so I can move from box to box without difference. Also 50 is a good number to process at one time. If I have stragglers which I get when I weight sort projectiles I put these aside in bigger weight difference groups and use them at practice days rather than club comp or higher level comp(less spread less usage).

[Stix]

Hmmm...now bigtich...if you domino'd all my cases over after the effort of me sorting them all, the bundaburg gingerale id give you would not necessarily be of pure form...if ya get my drift...!!!

The only thing i like to domino with these cases is ferals mate...& maybe the occasional beer can...pre-emptied of course...

[Stix]

I can't recall the member's name Stix but at least one bloke on here goes by volume.

Think marksman does...

What about you mate...?
Any & all advice appreciated...

[bigrich]

. i might kid around a bit on here mate, but i'm reading and taking a lot of info in .

[Stix]

Thanks sungazer...
Yes i also keep lots of 50 for everything...

The 10 grains is an extreme...
Out of that lot of 400 there are 200 that are within 1 (one) grain of each other--they are the 300 in the middle naturally...

So what do you group in/weight difference within any given lot of 50...?

[Stix]

:lol: . .

[brett1868]

Takes a long time to do 100 let alone 500, what a monumental effort that must have been. I got into the habit of writing the case weight on the case with a sharpie marker but only the last digits. I then sort by weight and from each group I'll measure the volume for a few cases then average it cause they're generally fairly close and in a big case like the BMG a few grains here or there means nothing. I also measure the case thickness half way between the shoulder and base then use a Dremel to grind a small notch on the rim. I use a 2 lug action so I aim to have the thinnest / thickest sections of the case aligned with the lugs to minimise the banana effect. If anyone wants to debate the logic behind this then feel free to search for "David Tubb precision reloading" as he explains it very well.
Stix, Are you intending to neck turn the cases cause I can't see it as being done in the picture. If you will neck turn then probably back to weight sorting as this should be the last step before loading. Also case prep is all well and good but have you thought much about actual bullet prep?

[Kelsey Cooter]

What is the difference in accuracy with weight sorting vs not weight sorting cases?

[sungazer]

The idea is to get your ES or SD (both related) down to a minimum. That way you get less deviation in elevation if you are doing everything else right as well.

[marksman]

the old benchrest rule was batch all within 1/2 a grain, lighter and heavier cases together
I don't bother to much now unless the cases come from various places
I do the volume check but usually only an average and on really good brand cases
by weighing the cases you are assuming that the cases are the same and the internal volume will also be
trying to be consistent and getting things as close as can be identical
so your shots will be identical

got to say well done good job there stix

[brett1868]

What is the difference in accuracy with weight sorting vs not weight sorting cases?

At 100m bugger all, 1000m a couple inches, 1609m a foot or more, 3218m it's massive..

[brett1868]

The idea is to get your ES or SD (both related) down to a minimum. That way you get less deviation in elevation if you are doing everything else right as well.

sungazer Nailed it...
The goal is to minimise as much as possible the variations in velocity from the first round till the last.

This is the data captured by my LabRadar at Plinkfest 2017 using the BR50 BFG firing "Match" prepared Lapua brass then precision reloaded. As a estimate it took approx. 1 hour per round from start to finish to prepare and load.

Cases were all +/- 0.2gr
Projectile = Classified Brass VLD
Weight = Approx 800gr

Not bad (-2.5gr from best)
AR2218 215.0gr
Series No 1
Total number of shots 5
Stats - Average 2576.84 fps
Stats - Highest 2592.83 fps
Stats - Lowest 2571.65 fps
Stats - Ext. Spread 21.18 fps
Stats - Std. Dev 9 fps

AR2218 217.5gr - Best result and smack on a node and subsequent testing has yielded very similar or better numbers.
Series No 2
Total number of shots 5
Stats - Average 2601.5 fps
Stats - Highest 2604.52 fps
Stats - Lowest 2597.76 fps
Stats - Ext. Spread 6.76 fps
Stats - Std. Dev 2.63 fps

Worst (+2.5 grain from best)
AR2218 220.0gr
Series No 3
Total number of shots 5
Stats - Average 2646.52 fps
Stats - Highest 2684.56 fps
Stats - Lowest 2633.01 fps
Stats - Ext. Spread 51.55 fps
Stats - Std. Dev 21.82 fps

Getting closer to next node but also approaching max case capacity, although no signs of excess pressure noted. Might push the limit a bit in the future.

AR2218 222.5gr
Series No 4
Total number of shots 5
Stats - Average 2660.52 fps
Stats - Highest 2671.32 fps
Stats - Lowest 2650.8 fps
Stats - Ext. Spread 20.51 fps
Stats - Std. Dev 7.59 fps

AR2218 225.0gr
Series No 5
Total number of shots 5
Stats - Average 2690.25 fps
Stats - Highest 2700.08 fps
Stats - Lowest 2679.63 fps
Stats - Ext. Spread 20.45 fps
Stats - Std. Dev 8.19 fps

[Stix]

For interest sake, these are 22-250 cases i have...all once fired & same brand.

Ive sorted them because the first shots out of rifle with these cases resulted in a mess on paper...

I weighed the fired brass when i got home & got a shock with the huge discrepancy, so ill start load testing again this weekend with more consistant brass.

Brett, this is for a new 22-250 varmint/fox outfit & had no intention of neck turning or weight sorting projectiles--atleast not at this point anyway.
Nor will i yet ho to the extent of aligning the thicker wall sections with bolt lugs--(again)-yet-!

At this point im after as tight groups as possible & narrow down chrono figures.

I realise there are still many variables that can & probably will impede the results im after, but this shooting thing is evolutionary, & this is the stage of evolution im at--weight sorting--.
So thought id ask the experts.

[brett1868]

For interest sake, these are 22-250 cases i have...all once fired & same brand.

Ive sorted them because the first shots out of rifle with these cases resulted in a mess on paper...

I weighed the fired brass when i got home & got a shock with the huge discrepancy, so ill start load testing again this weekend with more consistant brass.

Brett, this is for a new 22-250 varmint/fox outfit & had no intention of neck turning or weight sorting projectiles--atleast not at this point anyway.
Nor will i yet ho to the extent of aligning the thicker wall sections with bolt lugs--(again)-yet-!

At this point im after as tight groups as possible & narrow down chrono figures.

I realise there are still many variables that can & probably will impede the results im after, but this shooting thing is evolutionary, & this is the stage of evolution im at--weight sorting--.
So thought id ask the experts.

Cool....Not knowing what's been tried so far, maybe more efficient to focus on projectile choice, powder, charge & seating depth and see if there's some quick wins to be had there unless already tried. I run a 55gr SBK #1455 with 31.6gr of BM2 lit by a CCI200 primer and COAL of 2.35" for .3moa. Took some work to get there and I've never bothered messing with brass in that rifle other then trimming and sizing.
What sort of groups you getting and range tested to?
The 22-250 is one of my all time favourites, the very first centre fire rifle I purchased was a Sako 22-250 from Mick Smiths on George St for $700 in 1987

[sungazer]

Thats some pretty impressive stats Brett. Your SD is better than any of the measuring devices I have ever used. There gets less and less areas for improvement the more you learn and the better measuring equipment you get. You are probably very close to the pointy end. What i know now is i could maybe measure my loads better but would need a better scale and I dont have a consistent neck tension. But I am not going to spend the money on a AMP induction annealer and I dont know what else I could do to improve neck tension perhaps better dies. I may just need to learn a bit more so I know what I am not doing right.

yep stix it is a the more you learn the more you learn what you didnt know. Every little step helps it becomes a game of diminishing returns though.
Depending on what your doing batching in groups of 20 may be better or groups of 50 more the middle and a couple of groups for the outliers to be used for plinking or if really bad toss them. I have a hard time doing that I just load them and keep for when the zombies come. I tend to have a continuous rotation like this year I bought say another 100 those two weight sorted into two boxes and will only be used for comps until i do something wrong to them or the oldest ones need bining then they will all move down a rung and a new 100 will be bought.
I have other brass that doesnt get any of that and just gets reloaded although still the same carefulness one you start it is hard to step back.

[Gwion]

These guys have you sorted, Stix. For a basic unit like me: sort them light to heavy in .2gn or as close as you can get.
Get tight on all your other tolerances (bullet weight, charge weight, seating depth, neck tension) and shoot as good as you can.
Once you get bored with that, ask Brett how to prep your bullets properly...

[deye243]

What is the difference in accuracy with weight sorting vs not weight sorting cases?

stuff all this is at 1026 yards I don't weight sort this is with Winchester brass vid and a pic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAI4KLQ_sMM

I am not saying it isn't a need to do I am just saying I never needed it

[deye243]

watch the vid

[Gwion]

Yeah but those of us who can't shoot need to improve our odds!

[Flyer]

What I'm seeing is the heavier cases are usually a few thou longer, which is extra brass and usually in the neck, even after trimming. That might affect neck tension, but chamber volume should be similar when all bullets are seated to the same OAL .

Has anyone else seen a similar correlation between weight and length? And do you think it's mainly in the neck or the whole chamber has been stretched during resizing?

[Stix]

Cool....Not knowing what's been tried so far, maybe more efficient to focus on projectile choice, powder, charge & seating depth and see if there's some quick wins to be had there unless already tried. I run a 55gr SBK #1455 with 31.6gr of BM2 lit by a CCI200 primer and COAL of 2.35" for .3moa. Took some work to get there and I've never bothered messing with brass in that rifle other then trimming and sizing.
What sort of groups you getting and range tested to?
The 22-250 is one of my all time favourites, the very first centre fire rifle I purchased was a Sako 22-250 from Mick Smiths on George St for $700 in 1987

Some pretty nice figures you posted earlier...

22-250 is my fav too, and you're getting nice grouping out of your 22-250--thats the size im hoping for out of this unit...
I have noticed its got a tight chamber--ive only ever measured cases out of 4 22-250 chambers, but this one is by far the tightest...!!

Ive only tested to 100 yards, & the groups were around 2" but admittedly werent tested extensively.
I was hoping to this Sat but they forcasting big wind do might miss out again...

[Stix]

Sungazer--yes i too have a hard time throwing cases unless they're cactus.

I used to do batches of 20 but its just too small an amount, so i like to have 2 boxes of 50 for bunny/fox outfits, by the time one lot gets down to around 30 rounds the anxiety gets too much & i have to load the other 50.

Mind you, i like the idea of smaller batches at each end for the extremes to use on the odd zombie onslaught--good idea--i even have some green 20 round slip cases for them...

Yes you're right its hard to not do it once you start.
Mind you ive stepped back with 204 brass of late, not tumbling...just wipe carbon off necks, neck size, charge seat n shoot...even the weights would be getting mixed up by now & i gotta say life is easier, its just a minor battle to turn my back on the ocd every loading time...& that is easier to do when not missing bunnies & foxes.

[Stix]

These guys have you sorted, Stix. For a basic unit like me: sort them light to heavy in .2gn or as close as you can get.
Get tight on all your other tolerances (bullet weight, charge weight, seating depth, neck tension) and shoot as good as you can.
Once you get bored with that, ask Brett how to prep your bullets properly...

Thanks gwion...yes i set them out light to heavy...
& im as tight as can be expected with all other tolerances except neck tension--i just use std redding dies.
Ive had issues with consistant seating depth with 22-250 in the past & now think it might be the seater die as i get bludy excellent results (consistancy wise) with 204.
But ive got a micro seater to try now...hopefully that has long enough hollow for the tip of proj...
If not ill have to send it to marksman to drill & polish out...
Cheers

[Stix]

So Brett well all you blokes actually, out of curiosity...how do you batch proj's when there is both weight & distance of ogive to base to take into consideration...?

Also is it worth me atleast just quickly weight sorting the proj's...?

[Stix]

What is the difference in accuracy with weight sorting vs not weight sorting cases?

stuff all this is at 1026 yards I don't weight sort this is with Winchester brass vid and a pic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAI4KLQ_sMM

I am not saying it isn't a need to do I am just saying I never needed it

So if i take a week off & come over there, can you get that (equivalent) result with all my rifles...?

[sungazer]

Brett will do things different to me as he is using bigger projectiles that may have bigger differences and different changes in the projectiles may have different effects in different guns and disciplines. That sounds like a lot of disclaimers.

For me I overcome the different length ogives by seating well off the lands so that a few thou difference is not a large influence in the overall measurement. Weight sorting projectiles when the maths is done for a 155grn is not worth the predicted outcome. However that doesn't stop me from doing it. It gives you more confidence in your shot placement if you believe you have done everything possible to stop the odd one out. What that means is not shot is a flyer and every shot on the paper has a meaning. When you have that confidence in your shots its either you or the wind so you can adjust your aim to get more shots on the centre.

Sorry that didn't answer your questions. so for me I only sort on weight. I sort down to the milligram as that is the resolution of my scales. However they only have a accuracy or linearity of 2 milligrams so in reality I am sorting to +/- 2-3 milligrams . If there are ones that are outside the SD (the bulk of the projectiles) you should notice there are a lot in the middle range and there are less numbers as you move outside that middle range. Then any that are well outside that just go in the one group to be used at home for sighting in or fowling the barrel before a comp.

[Stix]

How far you seat off the lands sungazer...?

Also keep in mind this rifle is just a baby compared to your (im assuming) 308...
This is just a 22-250 pushing out 50-55's...