Weight sorting brass

[Gwion]

These guys have you sorted, Stix. For a basic unit like me: sort them light to heavy in .2gn or as close as you can get.
Get tight on all your other tolerances (bullet weight, charge weight, seating depth, neck tension) and shoot as good as you can.
Once you get bored with that, ask Brett how to prep your bullets properly...

[deye243]

What is the difference in accuracy with weight sorting vs not weight sorting cases?

stuff all this is at 1026 yards I don't weight sort this is with Winchester brass vid and a pic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAI4KLQ_sMM

I am not saying it isn't a need to do I am just saying I never needed it

[deye243]

watch the vid

[Gwion]

Yeah but those of us who can't shoot need to improve our odds!

[Flyer]

What I'm seeing is the heavier cases are usually a few thou longer, which is extra brass and usually in the neck, even after trimming. That might affect neck tension, but chamber volume should be similar when all bullets are seated to the same OAL .

Has anyone else seen a similar correlation between weight and length? And do you think it's mainly in the neck or the whole chamber has been stretched during resizing?

[Stix]

Cool....Not knowing what's been tried so far, maybe more efficient to focus on projectile choice, powder, charge & seating depth and see if there's some quick wins to be had there unless already tried. I run a 55gr SBK #1455 with 31.6gr of BM2 lit by a CCI200 primer and COAL of 2.35" for .3moa. Took some work to get there and I've never bothered messing with brass in that rifle other then trimming and sizing.
What sort of groups you getting and range tested to?
The 22-250 is one of my all time favourites, the very first centre fire rifle I purchased was a Sako 22-250 from Mick Smiths on George St for $700 in 1987

Some pretty nice figures you posted earlier...

22-250 is my fav too, and you're getting nice grouping out of your 22-250--thats the size im hoping for out of this unit...
I have noticed its got a tight chamber--ive only ever measured cases out of 4 22-250 chambers, but this one is by far the tightest...!!

Ive only tested to 100 yards, & the groups were around 2" but admittedly werent tested extensively.
I was hoping to this Sat but they forcasting big wind do might miss out again...

[Stix]

Sungazer--yes i too have a hard time throwing cases unless they're cactus.

I used to do batches of 20 but its just too small an amount, so i like to have 2 boxes of 50 for bunny/fox outfits, by the time one lot gets down to around 30 rounds the anxiety gets too much & i have to load the other 50.

Mind you, i like the idea of smaller batches at each end for the extremes to use on the odd zombie onslaught--good idea--i even have some green 20 round slip cases for them...

Yes you're right its hard to not do it once you start.
Mind you ive stepped back with 204 brass of late, not tumbling...just wipe carbon off necks, neck size, charge seat n shoot...even the weights would be getting mixed up by now & i gotta say life is easier, its just a minor battle to turn my back on the ocd every loading time...& that is easier to do when not missing bunnies & foxes.

[Stix]

These guys have you sorted, Stix. For a basic unit like me: sort them light to heavy in .2gn or as close as you can get.
Get tight on all your other tolerances (bullet weight, charge weight, seating depth, neck tension) and shoot as good as you can.
Once you get bored with that, ask Brett how to prep your bullets properly...

Thanks gwion...yes i set them out light to heavy...
& im as tight as can be expected with all other tolerances except neck tension--i just use std redding dies.
Ive had issues with consistant seating depth with 22-250 in the past & now think it might be the seater die as i get bludy excellent results (consistancy wise) with 204.
But ive got a micro seater to try now...hopefully that has long enough hollow for the tip of proj...
If not ill have to send it to marksman to drill & polish out...
Cheers

[Stix]

So Brett well all you blokes actually, out of curiosity...how do you batch proj's when there is both weight & distance of ogive to base to take into consideration...?

Also is it worth me atleast just quickly weight sorting the proj's...?

[Stix]

What is the difference in accuracy with weight sorting vs not weight sorting cases?

stuff all this is at 1026 yards I don't weight sort this is with Winchester brass vid and a pic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAI4KLQ_sMM

I am not saying it isn't a need to do I am just saying I never needed it

So if i take a week off & come over there, can you get that (equivalent) result with all my rifles...?

[sungazer]

Brett will do things different to me as he is using bigger projectiles that may have bigger differences and different changes in the projectiles may have different effects in different guns and disciplines. That sounds like a lot of disclaimers.

For me I overcome the different length ogives by seating well off the lands so that a few thou difference is not a large influence in the overall measurement. Weight sorting projectiles when the maths is done for a 155grn is not worth the predicted outcome. However that doesn't stop me from doing it. It gives you more confidence in your shot placement if you believe you have done everything possible to stop the odd one out. What that means is not shot is a flyer and every shot on the paper has a meaning. When you have that confidence in your shots its either you or the wind so you can adjust your aim to get more shots on the centre.

Sorry that didn't answer your questions. so for me I only sort on weight. I sort down to the milligram as that is the resolution of my scales. However they only have a accuracy or linearity of 2 milligrams so in reality I am sorting to +/- 2-3 milligrams . If there are ones that are outside the SD (the bulk of the projectiles) you should notice there are a lot in the middle range and there are less numbers as you move outside that middle range. Then any that are well outside that just go in the one group to be used at home for sighting in or fowling the barrel before a comp.

[Stix]

How far you seat off the lands sungazer...?

Also keep in mind this rifle is just a baby compared to your (im assuming) 308...
This is just a 22-250 pushing out 50-55's...

[Wm.Traynor]

I can't recall the member's name Stix but at least one bloke on here goes by volume.

Think marksman does...

What about you mate...?
Any & all advice appreciated...

I used to weight sort back in the day, to 0.2gn for a 222. But if I was doing it again, it would have to be the volume method which is incredibly tedious to my way of thinking. There seems to be such a thing as "more reloading than shooting" going on here. But I was younger and keener. One thing I did not do was experiment with seating depth as my bullets were not the VLD type.

[brett1868]

So Brett well all you blokes actually, out of curiosity...how do you batch proj's when there is both weight & distance of ogive to base to take into consideration...?

Also is it worth me atleast just quickly weight sorting the proj's...?

Personally for a 22-250 used on fur I wouldn't bother, if you're chasing the smallest group possible then there's a few levels of prep involved. I recall you have the OAL gauge but need the tapped case, knowing the max OAL per projectile type is critical before worrying too much about full on bullet prep.

Full OCD and more practical when purchasing bulk 500 packs of projectiles so you end up with larger final batches.
1. Point and trim Meplat for consistent Meplat size and Ogive to Meplat length aids a consistent seating depth / ogive-throat distance.
2. Measure Ogive to Base and batch by .001" for consistent case volume.
3. Sort each batch from step 2 by weight, then batch by .1gr
4. Seat shallow, measure with OAL gauge then adjust micrometre seating die accordingly.

How far you go is up to how much time / effort you want to commit vrs the diminishing returns in reducing group size. You can start at any of the steps, start at 4 if that suits. There's only 3 cartridges I bother to go the full potato on, 6.5CM, 375 Cheytac, 416 Barrett and I don't need to worry too much with the 50 cause the projectiles are precision CNC machined to extreme tolerances.

[sungazer]

Yes it depends on the type of bullet. interestingly VLDs everyone in target used to jam, some still do others have read the Berger site and Changed. So for the hybrids or VLDs I seat 30-40 thou off the lands. i have tested them out to 80 thou and still good. I see about 10 thou variance in the bullets so it needs to be well clear of that. they grouped ok from 15 thou off.
Even using the Redding VLD seating stem it really doesn't make contact with the ogive part of the the bullet but at a smaller diameter. I did modify a seating stem myself and I have read of someone who uses a seater for a larger projectile so that the stem makes contact with the ogive. The smaller diameter part where it does make contact is much more consistent than the tip though. If your seater makes contact with the tip have a close look at the consistency of the bullets.

[Stix]

I can't recall the member's name Stix but at least one bloke on here goes by volume.

Think marksman does...

What about you mate...?
Any & all advice appreciated...

I used to weight sort back in the day, to 0.2gn for a 222. But if I was doing it again, it would have to be the volume method which is incredibly tedious to my way of thinking. There seems to be such a thing as "more reloading than shooting" going on here. But I was younger and keener. One thing I did not do was experiment with seating depth as my bullets were not the VLD type.

I understand what you mean re more reloading, but its really more thinking, Im actually not going to do all these steps mate--not for a varmint hunting o/fit., but im asking some things for education purposes...

So where did/do you seat to WT...? Surely you had a datum to work by...? Like mag length...?

So if not using vld's are you suggesting seating depth makes little diff...?
Because i did try seating depth changes with a SIE 55 GK in other 22-250 & got no results.

And 2/3 of my 22-250's come out of the sako factory so i can reach lands from the mag.

[Stix]

Brett,
Yes mate i have the hdy tool & need the cases threaded--i have an approx measurement to lands though (within 2-3 thou).
I plan on sending you the cases when ive fired some others off & checked them with firing pin out...hopefully next week...!!

And yes ill only do the equivelant of your step 4--but its interesting to know how you do your proj prep...!!--it does give me a perspective overall so its helpful, thanks...!

Im looking to only use cheap proj's if i can as its a hunting rifle...so im starting with the likes of 50gr Zmax's & then 55gr SOE GK super roo's.

I seated the last lot about .010" off lands, maybe i should start further off...?

[Stix]

Sungazer...as said above im only using cheapie proj's--atleast to begin with--after all a dead fox is just a dead fox, irrelevant of berger hole or zmax zombie hole...

Maybe i should seat further off--.020"--.030"...? (I was about .010" off with first lot).

You say you seat 30-40 thou off lands to be well clear of the 10 thou variance in proj's...but i assume that any difference in ogive length of proj's wouldnt make a diff to distance from the lands (assuming seater die is hitting a consistant point other than tip of proj).

[sungazer]

Thats the problem the point at which the seater hits is not always a constant as compared to where the ogive would hit the lands hence you can end up with variations that you thought you went getting. I havent had a real good load development with the Super Roos yet but I would start with those probably 10-15 Jammed into the lands if possible. Just keep making them shorter by 10 thou at a time and see how they group. you only need to shoot three to see if they aren't working. 5-10 if they are.

There is no way I am sorting Super Roos in any way. It helps to be accurate but a hit is a hit nobody is saying or holding up score cards on how dead the fox is.

[Stix]

I tried the superroos jammed in the sako a while back...25 thou jam & got ragged holes at 34.5gr of 08...
Did a test at .010" off lands with the formed brass & results indicated 35gr charge was good...the best charge is right up there at 37gr/08 & starting to crater primers.

So i shot the 35gr charge at intervals of 10, 50, 90 & 130 thou off lands & got the shotgun effect...sprsyed .75" groups...i wasnt happy...!! Dont know what hapoened...
Havnt had that one out to play with since...

[Gwion]

Everytime I've tried a jump more than 20thou it has been a bad move.

[Stix]

Ok...but not even the 10 thou worked-although it was the best.
Why does it work for sungazer...should we be staring at the sun more...?

[Wm.Traynor]

Everytime I've tried a jump more than 20thou it has been a bad move.

It's funny isn't it I tried four 5 shotters at 100 with my 223 and not one was over 1/2 inch. Land clearance was about 0.030".

[Gwion]

I just think it's one of those things. Every chamber and rifle is different so experimenting with load development is the best way to find a goodd load for your rifle.

[Gwion]

Stix. Just load 'em however your rifles like them.

[sungazer]

With the VLDs it was working for a lot of people. In fact it was hunters that were loading them to mag length or what is in the book in long throated factory rifles and they were reporting back great results there were in the hundreds of thou, hence the investigation began. Super Roos are a very different shape.