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[in2anity]

[
I was talking headshots but if you insist a chest shot on a rabbit at that distance with a 22 and they don't go far, if you are such an experienced silhouette shooter you will know that your rifle needs to shoot MOA or less at that distance and a rabbits head is a big target compared to Rams when shooting offhand

Completely and utterly incorrect. The RMS targets are one-fifth the size of the Centrefire; the 100m RAM is approximately 6" wide by 5" tall. That's about the size of a school calculator. Now I don't know what bunnies you're shooting, but the ones I'm shooting have heads a lot smaller than a calculator. And that's exactly my point - even a mechanically moa 22lr will struggle to consistently hold a 1" group at 100m (under varying, real-world hunting conditions), which means it's a lucky-dip attempting headshot at such a distance. With 100% accuracy you'd probably miss 50% of your shots. So you go for body shots right? Ok sure you can hit em at that distance, but half the time they do a backflip and run away. I've learnt the hard way not to even attempt such long shots with the 22lr because it's outright cruel. This is where calibres like the 17hmr (or the 223 getting back to OP) really shine. And no, you don't need to offhand 1moa to hit the silhouettes; more like 4-5moa buddy. A 2moa rifle is plenty good enough to compete in a comp.

And since you brought my silhouette shooting experience into question mate (dunno where that came from BTW, I never claimed to be "mr experienced", I was merely referring to it as an example of how the 22lr dies in the arse past 60m); here's the facts - I'm a AA graded RMS shooter who competes in at least one RMS comp the last Sunday of every month. I have not missed a single session in the last 2 years. I practice silhouette as much as possible in addition to that. I'm not the best competitor, but I'm also definitely not the worst.

They're the facts mate - so don't go slinging unsubstantiated BS without expecting a harsh response. Sorry.

[Stix]

Thanks to everybody who took the time to give their advice.
I'll get some Trailboss and try pushing them a little quicker.
I might also give the Grenades a try as they seem to be the most frangible available.

Trailboss will push them slower mate...not quicker...!

Mate id listen to marksmans point just above...
Slower velocity will induce thru n thru's & ricochet's, especially if you're gut shooting the poor little hoppers...
If that proj doesnt work try a diff one. (When you said the groups open up I didnt ever imagine you'd be shooting 5" groups ).
Its velocity that will disintegrate a bullet, not lack of it.
If shooting foxes closer to houses/farm infrastructure i always use 204 or 22-250 as there is never anything left of the bullet at those velocities & ive never had a ricochet...very diff story with slow bullets or a 22lr...!!

And if gut shooting them at 100yds/m, leave the 22 at home.
Like i said before a bunnies head is a pretty big target up to 100m & is surprisingly hard with all the bone & thats what you want to meke a bullet expand, if you can shoot .6" groups with the 50g nos bt just stick with that.

And as for 3.5" groups/out to 5" groups with that projectile--save the powder & dont shoot another...again i dont want to be rude but god knows what posseses you to want to shoot any live animals let alone rabbits with that kind of accuracy.
Im a firm believer in only shooting what you can hit on paper & in the field your "group size" is always larger due to other factors.

If your confidence is low behind the trigger after having shot with those bullets, your heart rate & anxiety levels will rise (whether you're aware of it or not) & cause your senses to be enhanced on everything EXCEPT execute a good shot--you'll hesitate on the trigger & thus yank at it turning the shot into "a gamble"...& this not a good idea when shooting into buildings &/or without a safe backstop with cyclists less than a km away...sorry but thats plain !!!

Assuming your claimed group size with the 50g bt's is correct, id go back to the 50 nos bt & head shoot them--squeeze off & follow through with confidence & you'll be surprised--if driven at the right velocity & head shot rabbits there will be nothing left of that projectile to penetrate any buildings or pinch cyclists on the butt...!

Ive probably offended you, but its not my intention...

[Oldbloke]

Thanks to everybody who took the time to give their advice.
I'll get some Trailboss and try pushing them a little quicker.
I might also give the Grenades a try as they seem to be the most frangible available.

You have confused me. Your current load is I think 25.5 he of ar2206H. ADI manual indicates it would be doing about 3500fps.
You don't need trail boss to reduce this load. Read my post earlier. One is a letter from ADI the other is out of their manual.

You should be able to safely reduce that to about 18 or 19grains

[bladeracer]

Thanks to everybody who took the time to give their advice.
I'll get some Trailboss and try pushing them a little quicker.
I might also give the Grenades a try as they seem to be the most frangible available.

As I said earlier, if you want to push them fast then Trailboss won't work, it has a real limit in velocity because it burns so fast.
It also only comes in 1.5kg bottle which is expensive just to try it out.
Best bet would be to find somebody locally that uses it that can give you some - a little goes a long way. I loaded 200rds of .38 Special with just 900gn of TB, the full 1.5kg bottle is enough to make well over 3000 of these rounds.

[brett1868]

Why not a 17HMR, 17Hornet or a 22Mag for this particular task? Good reason to purchase another rifle

[Strikey]

[
I was talking headshots but if you insist a chest shot on a rabbit at that distance with a 22 and they don't go far, if you are such an experienced silhouette shooter you will know that your rifle needs to shoot MOA or less at that distance and a rabbits head is a big target compared to Rams when shooting offhand ]

Completely and utterly incorrect. The RMS targets are one-fifth the size of the Centrefire; the 100m RAM is approximately 6" wide by 5" tall. That's about the size of a school calculator. Now I don't know what bunnies you're shooting, but the ones I'm shooting have heads a lot smaller than a calculator. And that's exactly my point - even a mechanically moa 22lr will struggle to consistently hold a 1" group at 100m (under varying, real-world hunting conditions), which means it's a lucky-dip attempting headshot at such a distance. With 100% accuracy you'd probably miss 50% of your shots. So you go for body shots right? Ok sure you can hit em at that distance, but half the time they do a backflip and run away. I've learnt the hard way not to even attempt such long shots with the 22lr because it's outright cruel. This is where calibres like the 17hmr (or the 223 getting back to OP) really shine. And no, you don't need to offhand 1moa to hit the silhouettes; more like 4-5moa buddy. A 2moa rifle is plenty good enough to compete in a comp.

And since you brought my silhouette shooting experience into question mate (dunno where that came from BTW, I never claimed to be "mr experienced", I was merely referring to it as an example of how the 22lr dies in the arse past 60m); here's the facts - I'm a AA graded RMS shooter who competes in at least one RMS comp the last Sunday of every month. I have not missed a single session in the last 2 years. I practice silhouette as much as possible in addition to that. I'm not the best competitor, but I'm also definitely not the worst.

They're the facts mate - so don't go slinging unsubstantiated BS without expecting a harsh response. Sorry.

A pissing contest hey? I'm up for that, AA Grade C/F, AAA Grade Air Rifle to both Hunter and Heavy Rimfire, have competed at World Championship level, National and State Titles with success, I don't bulls**t about anything I have achieved so if you are an offended snowflake I don't particularly care

Again back to the original post, the twist rate is too fast for the short 35grn projectile, it is being spun too fast and cannot stabilise over its length, velocity changes are not going to fix this

[brett1868]

it is being spun too fast and cannot stabilise over its length, velocity changes are not going to fix this

Apologies if a little out of context but lower velocities will reduce the projectiles RPM hence why backing off the load on my 22-250 a touch stopped the dreaded grey mist 6' out from the muzzle

Strikey, in2anity...time out guys, we're all mates in here and when it comes to pissing comps Oldbloke beats everyone due to the massive size of his manhood

Oldblokeg.jpg (16.5 KiB) Viewed 4311 times

[in2anity]

A pissing contest hey? I'm up for that, AA Grade C/F, AAA Grade Air Rifle to both Hunter and Heavy Rimfire, have competed at World Championship level, National and State Titles with success, I don't bulls**t about anything I have achieved so if you are an offended snowflake I don't particularly care

You might be the world champion MS shooter buddy, that’s irrelevant. what IS relevant is that I strongly disagree with your original claim that 22lr is a reliable 120yd rifle (dropping bunnies). That’s my only point here. You just gotta shoot a few (you probably shouldn’t have) to figure that out...

EDIT: Brett is right, I’m getting all hot and bothered over something trivial, I didn’t intend on getting so personal Strikey. Sorry.

[brett1868]

Berger has a stability calculator on their site and I punch in what info was available and made an assumption on the BC based on the NTX version of the same weight bullet. The general rule is the heavier the bullet the faster you need to spin it rather then the opposite although there are optimal twist rates for each projectile but generally the manufacture's chosen rate works across a broad spectrum of types and weights.

http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

Jump in if I've messed up the math as I'm keen to see if this problem can be sorted as I have the same rifle and a pile of 35gr projectiles I'd like to try out myself. That was the plan a while back, then I thought bugger it and bought a .17 Hornet

Even at 1000fps it's still listed as stable....

223_Stability.JPG (93.52 KiB) Viewed 4311 times

[Gaznazdiak]

Thanks to everybody who took the time to give their advice.
I'll get some Trailboss and try pushing them a little quicker.
I might also give the Grenades a try as they seem to be the most frangible available.

As I said earlier, if you want to push them fast then Trailboss won't work, it has a real limit in velocity because it burns so fast.
It also only comes in 1.5kg bottle which is expensive just to try it out.
Best bet would be to find somebody locally that uses it that can give you some - a little goes a long way. I loaded 200rds of .38 Special with just 900gn of TB, the full 1.5kg bottle is enough to make well over 3000 of these rounds.

Hi Larry,
That TB is a bit pricey, I checked it this morning just before my Rangie blew an ignition module!
A day of greasy diagnosticatery activity and a few phone calls to discover the trouble.
I'm going to do some lurking with the 12g instead for a while.

[bladeracer]

Again back to the original post, the twist rate is too fast for the short 35grn projectile, it is being spun too fast and cannot stabilise over its length, velocity changes are not going to fix this

Hey Gaz, I'll order some of these VMax bullets and load them on the same charge your using. See if they behave any better in my 8"-twist Ruger. Will be a few weeks though.

[Strikey]

it is being spun too fast and cannot stabilise over its length, velocity changes are not going to fix this

Apologies if a little out of context but lower velocities will reduce the projectiles RPM hence why backing off the load on my 22-250 a touch stopped the dreaded grey mist 6' out from the muzzle

Strikey, in2anity...time out guys, we're all mates in here and when it comes to pissing comps Oldbloke beats everyone due to the massive size of his manhood

Oldblokeg.jpg

The 22/250 and its Ackley version can push projectiles to their limits, thin jacketed varmint projectiles are renowned for the grey mist out of these 2, hence why projectile selection, velocity and twist rate are a must. That short little 35grainer the OP is using is better suited to a 1 in 14 twist, can't recall the exact terminology but it has to do with the projectile rotating on its axis instead of around its axis, I don't believe a reduction in velocity will help but stranger things have happened

in2anity, I think you completely misunderstood my 1st post, I gathered that you obviously had silhouette experience and I did mention I would not recommend headshooting rabbits at those distances with a 22lr for less experienced shooters, did you read that far before attacking me, nnooo, you jumped on your keyboard and let rip, then proceed to tell everyone of your RMS abilities so I put up my RMS experiences and grades that I have achieved over the last 25 odd years ( I will guess possibly since before you left ya dads ballbag ) and your reply is to basically ridicule me, I'm betting with your attitude some of the better shooters at your club don't offer advice to you??????
Anyways this will be my last post, fed up with offering advice and literally being shot down by millennial wannabes with their heads up their arse, some of you on here need to have a good hard look at yourselves and learn to accept that your opinion is not the only one, a lot of good people have left this forum

[Stix]

Hey Strikey...sorry to say but leaving is silly mate...

No point doing that just because you feel someone gets a little too precious & jumps the gun...( sorry in2 ).

Thats the trouble with text...it only portrays a small percentage of whats actually being said, so can easily be misunderstood by someone in the wrong mood.

Now go to your room & cool off young man...& i wont accept your foot stomping resignation until you've calmed down...

Seriously, im happy to read your opinion mate, as im sure others are...& there are plenty of overly precious people in this country & i say you're not joining them...!!!

I bet if we all met without knowing who was who, a good many folk would like the people they dislike on the forum, & visa versa...

& then there would be the typical predictable and well hung old kunts that are just...well...old... (sorry ob--just tryin to lighten the mood).

And whats more he's manned up & apologised mate...sheesh...good on ya in2...!
Calm down & see ya soon strikey...!

[in2anity]

in2anity, I think you completely misunderstood my 1st post, I gathered that you obviously had silhouette experience and I did mention I would not recommend headshooting rabbits at those distances with a 22lr for less experienced shooters, did you read that far before attacking me, nnooo, you jumped on your keyboard and let rip, then proceed to tell everyone of your RMS abilities so I put up my RMS experiences and grades that I have achieved over the last 25 odd years ( I will guess possibly since before you left ya dads ballbag ) and your reply is to basically ridicule me, I'm betting with your attitude some of the better shooters at your club don't offer advice to you??????
Anyways this will be my last post, fed up with offering advice and literally being shot down by millennial wannabes with their heads up their arse, some of you on here need to have a good hard look at yourselves and learn to accept that your opinion is not the only one, a lot of good people have left this forum

You got it all figured out don't you - you know everything there is to know about everyone on here. Sure maybe I was being inward focused; but so were you; at least I'm man enough to admit it. I made my peace offering; that's the best I can do mate. I just find it a little hypocritical that the dude saying "snowflake I don't particularly care" is now throwing in the towel because of a little heated discussion; it's a random internet forum buddy, not some mumz club. I say go have a beer and get over it; people clearly have some respect for you around hear; why throw it all away over a little disagreement?

And FWIW you couldn't be further from the truth when you make presumptions about me or my relationships with my shooting buddies. Sorry, but sooo many incorrect assumptions here mate, soo many. I honestly wish I was a whipper snapper millennial (without a care in the world).

[in2anity]

No point doing that just because you feel someone gets a little too precious & jumps the gun...( sorry in2 )

All good, it's true. I have a short temper, my bad.

[Stix]

Good on ya mate...

[Oldbloke]

Oldbloke beats everyone due to the massive size of his manhood

Oldblokeg.jpg

I'm currently feeling harassed so I made a complaint to. 131050.



Their coming to take you away ha, ha.

[Oldbloke]

Sheeesh, reduce the ar2206H by say 5 grains.
Then the bullet will be doing hornet type speed and try that.