Loading Below Minimum

[Gaznazdiak]

I've been having seriously mixed accuracy problems from Hornady 35gn V-Max.
I have been told so many different conflicting and contradictory theories I'm about ready to chuck them in the dam.
One nong from the LGS even told me my 24" barrel was too long for them
The most common theory was that with such a small bearing surface they were going too quick for the 1:9 twist, but the last try was at 25.5gn of 2206H which is ADI's minumum recommended load.
I'm no Carlos Hathcock by any means, but I missed 4 of the dreaded Tony Raaabbit from under 100m.
I'd have done better with a sling and a rock.
Anybody got any theories?
Can you safely load below minimum?
I usually work on the idea that what the manual says is law and death lies waiting outside the parameters.

[No1Mk3]

G'day Gaznazdiak,
Yes and NO, some cartridges due to their design can be loaded down with some powders, others simply cannot as you risk either failing to expel a projectile and blocking the bore, often without knowing and firing a 2nd shot, or double detonation of the powder leading to barrel ringing or worse, a broken action. You need to say exactly which cartridge you are using, and research low powered loads for that cartridge, usually needing to change powders to something like Trailboss or 2205 etc. Cheers.

[Gwion]

Loading a 35gn att a lower charge seems contradictory....
Is it 223rem?

[Gwion]

The 1:8 shouldn't make any difference. Either it is stabilised or to is not. As long as the bullet is not being torn apart by the gyroscopic forces....

I am thinking there is some issue with seating depth. My suggestion would be to try seating on the lands and then work up again from minimum. I'd be looking in the first 1/3 of the charge range and testing at 0.3 increments with 5 round groups. My guess is you are having issues with bullet concentricity and excessive 'jump'. Loading on the lands or very close to the lands might alleviate the issue. If not, cut your losses and use a slightly longer/heavier bullet.

[bladeracer]

I've been having seriously mixed accuracy problems from Hornady 35gn V-Max.
I have been told so many different conflicting and contradictory theories I'm about ready to chuck them in the dam.
One nong from the LGS even told me my 24" barrel was too long for them
The most common theory was that with such a small bearing surface they were going too quick for the 1:9 twist, but the last try was at 25.5gn of 2206H which is ADI's minumum recommended load.
I'm no Carlos Hathcock by any means, but I missed 4 of the dreaded Tony Raaabbit from under 100m.
I'd have done better with a sling and a rock.
Anybody got any theories?
Can you safely load below minimum?
I usually work on the idea that what the manual says is law and death lies waiting outside the parameters.

I've only shot the 35gn bullet at fairly high velocities, but with good results - 25.5gn to 27.0gn AR2206H -ADI lists 24.3gn as their minimum.
My Ruger is 8"-twist and didn't cause any problems with the light bullet.
The 52gn swaged .22LR case bullets fall apart above about 3000fps though, they're not strong enough for the 8"-twist.

Yes, you can safely load below minimums. I'm sure if you look through different loading manuals you will find different minimum charges listed. But some cartridge/powder combinations either don't work well or could become quite dangerous.
AR2206H is one of the most versatile powders, but I've found that Trailboss gives you the same results for nearly half as much powder. When I was a kid I used IMR4198 in my .222Rem right down to well under subsonic without any problems. Trailboss has a velocity limit where increasing the charge doesn't make any more velocity, although it may improve accuracy so it's still worth trying. Trailboss can probably get up to around 60% of the velocities you can get with normal powders.
In 8x57mm, 14gn of TB under a 182gn cast bullet makes about 1400fps, so does 19gn though, and 19gn of AR2206H makes the same velocity.

If you can't get the 35gn NTX to work I'm happy to buy them off you.

[Stix]

Yes you can go below adi min...well i always do with a new rifle.

I assune from the 35grn proj & the charge weight of 2206h your shooting a 222 or 223.

2206h you can go down to 60% load density & thats by adi's standard. So measure the case capacity to the base of seated proj & weigh that--then you can safely load 60% of that.

If you're getting round holes in paper the proj is not coming apart or tumbling.
Only try trailboss if a severly reduced velocity is your goal, otherwise load down with 2206h or try a diff powder.

Fwiw my 222 used to love 2206...when my supply finally ran out i tried 3 other powders starting with 2206h to no avail--i thought it was the 40gr zmax it didnt like, but then i tried bm2.& it loves it.

Sorry if ive doubled on what others said--i havnt read the thread in full as im in a mad hurry--but try as gwion said with seating depth...if that doesnt work & you're hell bent on that proj try the reduced 2206h or a diff powder...

[Oldbloke]

First I will post this from ADI.

reduced loads .jpg (39.15 KiB) Viewed 6977 times

Reduced loads 60% max 2206H.JPG (72.59 KiB) Viewed 6977 times

[Oldbloke]

BUT, perhaps your jumping the gun. It could be another cause.
What is the rifle? Does it shoot other bullets OK?
What is the COAL?
Bedding and trigger OK?
New or old rifle?

[southeast varmiter]

Reducing below powder manufacture minimum should be discouraged. You can cause an explosion rather than a burn if too much case capacity is open to a certain powders. You’ll blow your face off. Else you’ll get incomplete burning and useless loads.

[Oldbloke]

Reducing below powder manufacture minimum should be discouraged. You can cause an explosion rather than a burn if too much case capacity is open to a certain powders. You’ll blow your face off. Else you’ll get incomplete burning and useless loads.

Correct. It is revered to as a SEE. (secondary explosion effect) But if you follow the above that I posted should be OK.

But I don't think that's the problem. It's another issue IMO.

[bladeracer]

Reducing below powder manufacture minimum should be discouraged. You can cause an explosion rather than a burn if too much case capacity is open to a certain powders. You’ll blow your face off. Else you’ll get incomplete burning and useless loads.

Is this based on your own experience with reduced loads?

[Stix]

Gaz...im assuming you're askin to go below adi min's to look for a better group...not so much for a reduced velocity load.
Is my assumption correct...?
Also is it .222 or 223 you're loading...?
Also, what is the best group size you've shot & what charge was that...?
Feel free to fill in these blanks...

Either way, if you're just looking for a tighter group, id suggest just try a few below the min with the 2206h--(again assuming you've completed testing throughout the adi range) & as long as you stick to the biz i mentioned prior & what OB posted with regard to 2206h.

I dont wanna be rude, but if the groups are that bad that you're missing bunnies sub 100m (a bunny's head is a pretty big target from rest under 100m) then the groups are pretty radical & only good for goats under 50m...!! & a slightly lesser charge prob wont make a kahoot of diff...!

Personally i wouldnt be trying such a bad load on live animals period....i prefer to know where my shot is gonna land so i dont send even a poor bunny off for a slow painful death.

If no luck on paper, then do the gwion & check & adjust seating depth for a few shots...

(This is assuming everything is tight on the rifle of course.)

If there is no VAST improvement from your initial post (ie; sub one inch), just scrap either the powder or proj...or both...

I assume yr keen on the proj so try a completely diff powder.

Let us know how you go...

[Gaznazdiak]

Sorry, should have mentioned, but I was lurking on the hill above the sheds, just over 100m and had missed 2 in a row, so I just banged the question up and got busy and forgot about it.
It's for my Howa 1500 .223, 24" 1:9 twist.
I have been worried about not seating the 35gn Hornady V-Max deep enough as they are so short, flat bottomed and only 13mm long, with only 7mm of bearing surface.
I mostly use Nosler 50gn Ballistic Varmint, as the rifle really seems to like them and they group about the size of a 1c piece at 100, but when I'm shooting around the sheds I've had the solid base of the 50's go through the rabbits and hole the sheds, so I tried the 35's as when they hit only tiny shrapnel exits with the innards.
I weight batch all the brass to within .5gn and keep the batches together till they are done and make sure the ammo stays as close to room temp as possible, yet I was getting no end of flyers. Of the 60 of them I've fired at rabbits only 21 were hits, yet with the 50's it's closer to 95% hits from 100-300m.

[Cooper]

The 35 Vmax is the hornet style projectile. No reason why it won’t work in your 223 though. I have only used the 35 Vmax in my Weatherby 1-12 twist and with trailboss powder. Accuracy was no worse than my other Trailboss loads. Cannot remember what seating depth I used.
I’ll try them in my Howa 1-9 twist with 2206H and trailboss and see how they shoot.

[sungazer]

I dont think it is a depth problem so much. I would think powder and speed not only that you don't have much option with such a small projectile a couple of mm in the case whats left always going to be a jump to the lands. A general rule of thumb is for the lighter projectiles in any cal range a faster powder is best and for the heavier a slower powder works best. So the AR2206H is probably a bit to slow. The powders listed in the ADI book are from fastest to slowest so choose the top one for that projectile. Probably BM8208. The projectile itself is also really meant for higher speed made light to go quick.
The other option if you have one is the 22LR it fires the 40grn at aprox 1000fps great for those ranges and prob more accurate.

[in2anity]

Yep I had the same thought as sungazer; try a faster powder. I'm comparing it against the characteristics of the .204; it definitely prefers a faster, more explosive power. From my own experiences you gotta drive those little pills hard to squeeze the best accuracy out of them. You got any 2219? Heck you could even experiment with some 2207 (if you have it).

[Oldbloke]

What group size are you getting?


:LOL: shooting rabbits around sheds @ 100 mtrs. Should be using a 22LR. Cheaper & easier. Can only assume you don't have one?

Might be a coincidence but my light loads for my 223 don't shoot as good an normal loads.

[Gaznazdiak]

Hi y'all, thanks for your responses.
Being very low on the learning curve for reloading, I have only the 2206H as I didn't want to try too many things at once and overload my lonely braincell. I had been told it was a good choice for the Nosler 50gn Varmints I use most, and I'm a bit leery about experimenting when I know so little and have only a bit over a year of experience rolling my own.
If I have distilled all the advice correctly, I am not pushing them fast enough rather than too fast and could do with a different load of a faster powder, as well as seating depth experiments.

Another duhh question I know, and I imagine it would relate to projectile length, but there would be a minimum depth before you got to the point where they couldn't be relied on to stand handling etc?

OB, it may seem laughable overkill to be exploding rabbits at 100m with a .223, but the topography and tall trees surrounding the shearing shed and silos and such where I have been asked to take care of the hole digging little barstools mean that there is only a limited number of fields of fire, the best of which has a road less than a km directly behind it, so I'm not keen to use it as there are often "temporary Aussies" riding their treddlies along it for road race training. Chances are there would be no dramas, but I'd rather err on the side of caution.
As to the .22, I have one, he's actually my favourite rifle, having been given to me by my Mum for my 13th birthday, but he's a Winchester Model 04, somewhere between 91 and 114 years old. He still shoots as straight as ever, but a combination of iron sights and my multifocal specs mean I can either see the sights in focus or the target but not both, and I'm like a bat without the specs. And no way I'm going to spoil him by modifying to fit a scope.
I have been considering a cheapo .22 to put a scope on just for the shed area, but I also have a 29yo Range Rover with 460,000kms on it that has been a money pit for the last year, and it's a 35km walk to town, so I've had to be boringly sensible.
As to grouping, about 3.5" at 100m with flyers out to 5", the same rifle will put the 50's in a 12-15mm group.

[in2anity]

OB, it may seem laughable overkill to be exploding rabbits at 100m with a .223, but the topography and tall trees surrounding the shearing shed and silos and

Mate IMO, 100% the 223 will be much better than the 22lr for consistently culling rabbits out to 100m - it's by-construction a varmint round! Good luck (consistently) head-shoting a rabbit at 100m with the 22lr (which you need to do at that distance to guarantee the kill). If you want pinpoint accuracy with the 22lr you need to be using subs, which limits you to probably less than 75m because any breath of wind and your group will blow out to bigger than a bunnies head (they have hardly any energy left at 100m).

The way I see it, for the guaranteed killing rabbits with a 22lr it's sketchy AF reaching past 75m - sometimes you kill em, sometimes they run away with a slug in them. The 223 on the other hand, it's like a lazer at any distance inside 100m - just center-of-mass point, zero holdover, and poof, the rabbit is gone!

[Gaznazdiak]

OB, it may seem laughable overkill to be exploding rabbits at 100m with a .223, but the topography and tall trees surrounding the shearing shed and silos and

Mate IMO, 100% the 223 will be much better than the 22lr for consistently culling rabbits out to 100m - it's by-construction a varmint round! Good luck (consistently) head-shoting a rabbit at 100m with the 22lr (which you need to do at that distance to guarantee the kill). If you want pinpoint accuracy with the 22lr you need to be using subs, which limits you to probably less than 75m because any breath of wind and your group will blow out to bigger than a bunnies head.

The way I see it, for the guaranteed killing rabbits with a 22lr it's sketchy AF reaching past 75m - sometimes you kill em, sometimes they run away with a slug in them. The 223 on the other hand, it's like a lazer at those distances - just center-of-mass point, zero holdover, and poof, the rabbit is gone!

Gone is right, I have misjudged the downhill angle correction a couple of times and the round has hit the ground under the rabbit, but the force of the Ballistic Tip Nosler going off in the dirt has ripped them up anyway.
The unfortunate individual in the pic was the most spectacular result, with bits of guts 8 foot up the side of the shed and a good 15 feet away from where he was sitting.
I far prefer to obliterate them with overkill than risk a crawl-off.

[in2anity]

Gone is right, I have misjudged the downhill angle correction a couple of times and the round has hit the ground under the rabbit, but the force of the Ballistic Tip Nosler going off in the dirt has ripped them up anyway.
The unfortunate individual in the pic was the most spectacular result, with bits of guts 8 foot up the side of the shed and a good 15 feet away from where he was sitting.
I far prefer to obliterate them with overkill than risk a crawl-off.

Amen. You've just gotta look at the condition of the (rimfire) silhouettes to realise how little energy the 22lr has at 100m (and even 77m) - the 40m chickens are cratered and bent AF, whereas the 100m rams are still absolutely pristine, it's such a good representation of the practical limits of the 22. Not to mention the drop the between a 40m zero and 100m is a full 10moa - any misjudgement of distance between about 65m and 100m and you will outright miss with the 22.

Nah, IMO your heads in the right place trying to optimize the lighter 223 projectile for rabbit control. KISS principle for hunting aye. OFC if you're going for pelts or meat, different story.

[sungazer]

But if the lighter pill actually has to be shot much faster than a heavier one to be accurate it doesn't meet his other objective of not going through the rabbit and damaging buildings or a risk to others as there is no backstop.
It might need a bit of ballistic research to find the right projectile that delivers good accuracy with the least amount but enough energy to do the job. I really think those 32 grn need a faster powder and to be driven faster. A 50grn will be ok with the AR2206H and could be loaded down to a slower MV have the right accuracy and be the best round for the job.

[in2anity]

But if the lighter pill actually has to be shot much faster than a heavier one to be accurate it doesn't meet his other objective of not going through the rabbit and damaging buildings or a risk to others as there is no backstop.
It might need a bit of ballistic research to find the right projectile that delivers good accuracy with the least amount but enough energy to do the job. I really think those 32 grn need a faster powder and to be driven faster. A 50grn will be ok with the AR2206H and could be loaded down to a slower MV have the right accuracy and be the best round for the job.

Yes I must admit I'm presuming there's no risk of hitting any neighbours.

[Gwion]

Trailboss is cheap and goes a long way in the way of the number of reloads you get from it.

I had a good load for it with 40gn varmint grenades. About 1" at 100m. I ran out of those bullets though. Now load 50gn zmax for decent results. Starts dropping quick past 100m, though.

Just an option.

[in2anity]

Trailboss is cheap and goes a long way in the way of the number of reloads you get from it.

I had a good load for it with 40gn varmint grenades. About 1" at 100m. I ran out of those bullets though. Now load 50gn zmax for decent results. Starts dropping quick past 100m, though.

Just an option.

Trail Boss under a 32gn 204 projectiles is also amazingly flat inside 100m - alot flatter than I was expecting. Same POI as my max 2206 loads go figure! Bloody good powder that one - shoot it right through to my 44mag lead projectiles. Definitely worth a look OP.

[Strikey]

Gone is right, I have misjudged the downhill angle correction a couple of times and the round has hit the ground under the rabbit, but the force of the Ballistic Tip Nosler going off in the dirt has ripped them up anyway.
The unfortunate individual in the pic was the most spectacular result, with bits of guts 8 foot up the side of the shed and a good 15 feet away from where he was sitting.
I far prefer to obliterate them with overkill than risk a crawl-off.

Amen. You've just gotta look at the condition of the (rimfire) silhouettes to realise how little energy the 22lr has at 100m (and even 77m) - the 40m chickens are cratered and bent AF, whereas the 100m rams are still absolutely pristine, it's such a good representation of the practical limits of the 22. Not to mention the drop the between a 40m zero and 100m is a full 10moa - any misjudgement of distance between about 65m and 100m and you will outright miss with the 22.

Nah, IMO your heads in the right place trying to optimize the lighter 223 projectile for rabbit control. KISS principle for hunting aye. OFC if you're going for pelts or meat, different story.

Maybe the Rams are in "pristine" condition but a good centre hit with standard velocity 22lr sends them back a bit from the stand. A headshot on a rabbit only requires 5-6ft/lb of energy for a clean kill, a sub 12ft/lb air rifle kills rabbits out to 50-60yds without too much trouble and standard velocity 22lr ammo kills rabbits out to 120yds no problems not that I would recommend it for less experienced shooters.

Now back on topic, I think the problem with that little 35grn projie in the 223 with a 1 in 9 twist is an over stabilising problem, aren't they designed for the 22Hornet with a slower twist rate and of course lower velocities? I would think loading them on top of Trailboss will give better results

[in2anity]

standard velocity 22lr ammo kills rabbits out to 120yds no problems not that I would recommend it for less experienced shooters.

Is this based on personal experience is it?? Tell me, what percentage of subsonic, body-shotted rabbits would you say are instantly incapacitated at such distances?

[marksman]

in my way of thinking shooting the slow 22 rimfire or 223 at 100 would be a disaster because of ricochet
IMO it would be better to use a fully frangible bullet but shooting away from things you do not want to shoot
unless you have a can on the muzzle

[Gaznazdiak]

Thanks to everybody who took the time to give their advice.
I'll get some Trailboss and try pushing them a little quicker.
I might also give the Grenades a try as they seem to be the most frangible available.

[Strikey]

standard velocity 22lr ammo kills rabbits out to 120yds no problems not that I would recommend it for less experienced shooters.

Is this based on personal experience is it?? Tell me, what percentage of subsonic, body-shotted rabbits would you say are instantly incapacitated at such distances?

I was talking headshots but if you insist a chest shot on a rabbit at that distance with a 22 and they don't go far, if you are such an experienced silhouette shooter you will know that your rifle needs to shoot MOA or less at that distance and a rabbits head is a big target compared to Rams when shooting offhand