Interpreting hand load results - .308

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Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by powelly2006 » 07 May 2018, 8:00 am

G'day everyone,

So, I loaded some ammo for development for my new Howa 1500 (Trekka 2) ultralite in .308 (1 in 9" twist, short barrel).

Checked the ADI recommendations which started as low as 44gr for around 2600fps, and went up to 47.5gr (max charge) for around 2900fps using 150gr SPBT Speers and AR2208.

My brass was all full-length resized, trimmed to length and neck turned before loading.

Due to the fact that I knew the Winchester Super-X 150gr PowerPoint shot well (I used this to break in my barrel), I thought I'd mimic the velocity (2800fps), plus or minus a hundred-odd fps as a starting point for my loads. Therefore, I started the loads at 46gr, and increased the charge by 0.5gr up to max charge of 47.5.

I don't use a chronograph, so my figures here are based on the ADI guide, but I would have expected velocity figures between about 2700 and 2900fps for these loads.

I made up 5 rounds of each and shot these loads at 100m (this is primarily a hunting rifle and only has a 3-9x40 scope, so 100m is plenty), with pretty ordinary grouping at 46gr. Then the 46.5 shot reasonably well, but spread on the horizontal plane around 80mm with one flyer responsible for this and four rounds placed within 40mm. There was only about 12mm spread on the vertical, so only the horizontal spread and the single flyer caused this group.

Then I shot the 47gr and 47.5gr loads. The 47gr grouped to 52mm and 47.5gr grouped to 55mm with the spread being primarily on the vertical.

It was windy, but I didn't think it was windy enough to be a major issue.

My question is, should I rely on the 46.5gr load for further development based on the fact that it looked better on the vertical (indicating windage issues), or should I go with the 47gr load because it had the smallest overall group ?

Thanks in advance, hope I've provided all the relevant info for consideration.
Cheers,
Powelly.
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by sungazer » 07 May 2018, 4:06 pm

Honestly I wouldn't be worrying about grouping much at all with that rifle. ( I am not knocking the rifle, All rifles are different and made for different purposes that one is a lightweight carrying hunter dont try benchrest with it.) I would select the weight of bullet you wish to use for your hunting. Then just concentrate on One shot getting it to hit where you aim. I would also do a 200yrd, 300rd test so you know your drop for that round. you could try a follow up shot to see how close it is but that is about all you need to worry about.
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by AZZA'S HJ47 » 07 May 2018, 5:34 pm

Personally tried a few diffrent types of ammo with my 308 with the same configuration. Didnt find anything really that grouped too well. Got enough brass and tried a few of the 168gr zmax projectiles on top of 42gr of 2208 will consistently sit on under inch groups and around 3ish @ 300. I ended up buying 3 boxes of the zmax as they are no longer being produced, should see out the rifle. The 308 howa will be my go to hunting rifle and will only see the range to check zero. Hope this helps
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by powelly2006 » 07 May 2018, 5:59 pm

Mate, that's more like what I'm after.

I like the SP projectile for hunting pigs (I live in FNQ).

With the aforementioned spread, what do you think about the loads? Which would you take, horizontal spread, or vertical spread with a slightly tighter group?

I won't be dropping any pigs from over 200, but ethically killing ferals is still important to me. If I can better understand these results, they should translate to better, faster knockdown.

I will also look at some alternative projectiles, but the Speers offered good value for money for a hunting round with very similar characteristics as the Winchester rounds I was buying factory.
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by marksman » 07 May 2018, 6:58 pm

you cant really judge when your cases have not been fireformed in your chamber, the internal volume will be different after fireforming so the pressure will be and your groups will be, if I were you I would do the same test again with a solid rest eg: sand bags front and rear off a solid bench, not the car bonnet for testing
you can expect good accuracy from your rifle but as has been said maybe not like a bench rest rifle
the win brass is good quality, it is thin and strong so you will probably be able to go over book max but I'm not recommending you do

I would keep on yakking but I have to go and pick up the tin lids from karate
what I have already posted will be of help as well as get the trigger lightened

good luck with it :drinks:
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by Stix » 07 May 2018, 7:10 pm

AZZA'S HJ47 wrote:Personally tried a few diffrent types of ammo with my 308 with the same configuration. Didnt find anything really that grouped too well. Got enough brass and tried a few of the 168gr zmax projectiles on top of 42gr of 2208 will consistently sit on under inch groups and around 3ish @ 300. I ended up buying 3 boxes of the zmax as they are no longer being produced, should see out the rifle. The 308 howa will be my go to hunting rifle and will only see the range to check zero. Hope this helps


What the...???
Is that right , Zmax no longer made, or just the 30 cal's...?
(Sorry for intrusion guys :) )
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by AZZA'S HJ47 » 07 May 2018, 7:11 pm

powelly2006 wrote:Mate, that's more like what I'm after.

I like the SP projectile for hunting pigs (I live in FNQ).

With the aforementioned spread, what do you think about the loads? Which would you take, horizontal spread, or vertical spread with a slightly tighter group?

I won't be dropping any pigs from over 200, but ethically killing ferals is still important to me. If I can better understand these results, they should translate to better, faster knockdown.

I will also look at some alternative projectiles, but the Speers offered good value for money for a hunting round with very similar characteristics as the Winchester rounds I was buying factory.


Haven't been fortunate enough to try these loads out on pigs (still trying to find them) however on other animals with rather explosive results.

POI spread obviously the tighter the better. I found that after i did a bedding job on my howa with some inexpensive JB weld this helped immensely with bringing the group sizes down and better consistency.

As for projectile choice i did read up on this forum that the 168gr zmax was the go to with the Howa's so with that being said i thought id give them a go. Couldn't be happier with them. Price wise i was able to pick them up for $220 for 500 cheap. Have heard that the 168gr eldx will be the replacment but will be twice the price.

But thats just my two cents.

Anymore questions fire away more than happy to help out :drinks:
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by sungazer » 07 May 2018, 9:10 pm

Interpreting your groups requires more information. Being a light barrel they tend to heat up quickly and can walk. so any group testing you do needs to really let the barrel cool down to nearly the same temp. But if you want to recreate a field type event where you may do one quick follow up shot. Then use that as your testing just two shots.
In general Vertical spread is down to technique, setup and ammunition consistency if it was out further. Horizontal often wind but can also be technique ie pulling of the trigger follow through.
A good guide can be found here. http://www.vra.asn.au/documents/FClassT ... Course.pdf
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by bigfellascott » 07 May 2018, 9:29 pm

sungazer wrote:Honestly I wouldn't be worrying about grouping much at all with that rifle. ( I am not knocking the rifle, All rifles are different and made for different purposes that one is a lightweight carrying hunter dont try benchrest with it.) I would select the weight of bullet you wish to use for your hunting. Then just concentrate on One shot getting it to hit where you aim. I would also do a 200yrd, 300rd test so you know your drop for that round. you could try a follow up shot to see how close it is but that is about all you need to worry about.


+1 totally agree, it's a hunting rifle not a range rifle so use it as such.
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by SCJ429 » 07 May 2018, 9:59 pm

Go with the groups with the least vertical, reshoot the loads you are interested in if you want to confirm your results. Fine tune the load you want with seating depth, if you use a magizene start with the maximum that feeds into the mag and reduce from there. The better your group the more likely that you will hit what you aim at out in the paddock. No one needs to use a two MOA hunting rifle, your Howa will be able to shoot well inside one MOA with careful hand loading if it has no bedding or barrel machining issues.
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by AZZA'S HJ47 » 07 May 2018, 10:35 pm

Stix wrote:
AZZA'S HJ47 wrote:Personally tried a few diffrent types of ammo with my 308 with the same configuration. Didnt find anything really that grouped too well. Got enough brass and tried a few of the 168gr zmax projectiles on top of 42gr of 2208 will consistently sit on under inch groups and around 3ish @ 300. I ended up buying 3 boxes of the zmax as they are no longer being produced, should see out the rifle. The 308 howa will be my go to hunting rifle and will only see the range to check zero. Hope this helps


What the...???
Is that right , Zmax no longer made, or just the 30 cal's...?
(Sorry for intrusion guys :) )


The lot has been discontinued 17, 20, 22 and 30 dam shame.
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by Hangfire » 07 May 2018, 11:51 pm

I'm using 165sst on 42gr of 2208 with adi brass. Shooting half moa when i do my part. Starting load but when shooting that well i have yet to test heavier charges.
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by pomemax » 07 May 2018, 11:58 pm

150gr SPBT Speers trimming your case good then are you crimping? to many questions firing from a rest or bi pod sitting /standing /prone? what sort of scales reloading press are you using
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by powelly2006 » 08 May 2018, 9:57 am

Cheers for all of the helpful responses guys.

I was using Federal brass, and shooting off sandbags on a bench at my local range.

I understand it isn't a bench rifle, but I am trying to obtain the most accurate rounds I can.

I did allow the barrel to cool between sets of charges. And yes, it does heat up quickly if you let it get away from you.

Perhaps I could revisit the rounds I tested to be most accurate and try again. I'll also consider the bedding option for that little bit more accuracy.

Not trying to shoot my way into the Olympics, but there is no reason I can't use similar techniques to get the best shooting ammo for hunting.

Thanks again everyone. I'll persevere, and let you know how I get along.
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by powelly2006 » 08 May 2018, 9:59 am

pomemax wrote:150gr SPBT Speers trimming your case good then are you crimping? to many questions firing from a rest or bi pod sitting /standing /prone? what sort of scales reloading press are you using


Using the Hornady electronic scales. They seem to be alright. I've double checked their accuracy against the old school analogue scales, and they're always correct.

No crimps as yet, no. Just seating the projectile.

Press is the Lee.

Cheers.
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by powelly2006 » 08 May 2018, 9:59 am

sungazer wrote:Interpreting your groups requires more information. Being a light barrel they tend to heat up quickly and can walk. so any group testing you do needs to really let the barrel cool down to nearly the same temp. But if you want to recreate a field type event where you may do one quick follow up shot. Then use that as your testing just two shots.
In general Vertical spread is down to technique, setup and ammunition consistency if it was out further. Horizontal often wind but can also be technique ie pulling of the trigger follow through.
A good guide can be found here. http://www.vra.asn.au/documents/FClassT ... Course.pdf


Thanks, I'll be sure to check this out.
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by marksman » 08 May 2018, 11:49 am

bedding is a good idea but will not give you accuracy, a good bedding job gives you consistency :thumbsup:
make sure when you shoot the rifle it pushes straight back with recoil not hopping around or jumping off the bags, take your sling swivels out for testing
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by bigfellascott » 08 May 2018, 6:53 pm

Is it in one of those plastic Hogue stocks? If so they are notorious for flex so might be pushing turds up hill with chopsticks to get better out of it. Personally I reckon it would be better to set up some gongs (5" size) or thereabouts at 100, 200 and 300m get a good steady rest as best you can and see if you can hit them with reasonable consistency.
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by powelly2006 » 09 May 2018, 9:46 am

bigfellascott wrote:Is it in one of those plastic Hogue stocks? If so they are notorious for flex so might be pushing turds up hill with chopsticks to get better out of it. Personally I reckon it would be better to set up some gongs (5" size) or thereabouts at 100, 200 and 300m get a good steady rest as best you can and see if you can hit them with reasonable consistency.


Haha, yeah roger. It is one of those flexy Hogue stocks.

Thinking about making it more rigid with some epoxy like I've seen on some YouTube videos. Just prevents it from contacting the barrel at the fore end and gives it a more solid feel too. Ideally, I'd just swap the stock out for something better, which I may do in time, but if I can get it shooting well now I may also not bother and put that money into another rifle. :)

I'd love to test out the gongs, but my local range is pretty particular about how practice days are run. I reckon if I asked it would be a straight up "no". But I can hit as much paper as I want, provided it is at the predetermined range for that days practice.

Cheers for all of the advice so far, it is very much appreciated.
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by Barrettmr » 09 May 2018, 1:44 pm

I have the same rifle, and found that 46gr 2208 with 150gr hornady interlocks gave me around 1.25/1.5 at 100. It's only a short range pig gun for me so that's as far as I went.
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by powelly2006 » 09 May 2018, 2:24 pm

Barrettmr wrote:I have the same rifle, and found that 46gr 2208 with 150gr hornady interlocks gave me around 1.25/1.5 at 100. It's only a short range pig gun for me so that's as far as I went.


Yeah nice.

It's a great little rifle. Functions well, and will serve its purpose perfectly out in the scrub.

If I can get my groups to close up a little I'd be happier than a pig in s**t.

I suppose, as the title of the topic suggests, for me it's more about interpreting the results more than anything... Just so I know the next step. It will also help me with my load developments for future rifles.

What are you paying for the Hornady projectiles ? I think I'm paying $58 for 100 at my local gun shop in Cairns. Believe I can get better projectiles cheaper up on the tablelands, but I'm okay spending that money on the Speer SPBT.
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by powelly2006 » 09 May 2018, 2:26 pm

Barrettmr wrote:I have the same rifle, and found that 46gr 2208 with 150gr hornady interlocks gave me around 1.25/1.5 at 100. It's only a short range pig gun for me so that's as far as I went.


Question of curiosity, what optics are you using ?

I've currently got a horrible Nikko Stirling 3-9x40. I was looking at an Athlon Talos 3-12x40 as an affordable hunting upgrade.
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by Barrettmr » 09 May 2018, 6:56 pm

powelly2006 wrote:
Barrettmr wrote:I have the same rifle, and found that 46gr 2208 with 150gr hornady interlocks gave me around 1.25/1.5 at 100. It's only a short range pig gun for me so that's as far as I went.


Yeah nice.

It's a great little rifle. Functions well, and will serve its purpose perfectly out in the scrub.

If I can get my groups to close up a little I'd be happier than a pig in s**t.

I suppose, as the title of the topic suggests, for me it's more about interpreting the results more than anything... Just so I know the next step. It will also help me with my load developments for future rifles.

What are you paying for the Hornady projectiles ? I think I'm paying $58 for 100 at my local gun shop in Cairns. Believe I can get better projectiles cheaper up on the tablelands, but I'm okay spending that money on the Speer SPBT.


Western firearms have them for 45 per 100. They have them in stock now, but sell out quickly, the cheapest I have been able to find. They are excellent to deal with online.
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by Barrettmr » 09 May 2018, 6:59 pm

powelly2006 wrote:
Barrettmr wrote:I have the same rifle, and found that 46gr 2208 with 150gr hornady interlocks gave me around 1.25/1.5 at 100. It's only a short range pig gun for me so that's as far as I went.


Question of curiosity, what optics are you using ?

I've currently got a horrible Nikko Stirling 3-9x40. I was looking at an Athlon Talos 3-12x40 as an affordable hunting upgrade.


leupold 3-9 x 40.
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by in2anity » 11 May 2018, 9:04 pm

For a light barrel, shoot groups of two or three, then wait for it to fully cool. Rinse, repeat. I bet she shoots better then!
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by SCJ429 » 11 May 2018, 10:26 pm

You should be able to shoot them under 1/2 inch with a little 2208 behind them.
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 12 May 2018, 10:14 am

How much 2208 would you put. As adi doesn't have any data on zmax... or just use Sierra 168 specs as reference. Thanks
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by nightforcenxs » 12 May 2018, 10:30 am

Ziad wrote:How much 2208 would you put. As adi doesn't have any data on zmax... or just use Sierra 168 specs as reference. Thanks


i use the 168 sierra load data for 2208 with the zmax as its the exact same weight projectile ive ran the zmax .5 from max load before and never experienced huge pressure signs but i like to load .5 more then minimum as this gives me great accuracy for punching paper
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 12 May 2018, 10:37 am

Thanks... researching and they are supposed to be rebadged amax.... and punching paper is what I will be doing
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Re: Interpreting hand load results - .308

Post by powelly2006 » 12 May 2018, 1:48 pm

Yeah, I've got a mate that shoots the Z-Max. He seems to think they're really good for smashing at the range as opposed to the ELD Match stuff he uses for serious comp.

Do they hold up as a round that would drop pigs ?

I've been doing groups of 5 and allowing the barrel to cool down in between - plinking with my little Ruger in 17HMR while I wait. ;)

Cheers.
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