Testing loads.

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

Testing loads.

Post by Diddums » 13 May 2018, 9:05 pm

I went and fired about 70 rounds today,
30 of which were recently loaded after I measured my chamber with a Hornady COAL gauge and bullet comparator kit.

The rounds I loaded before I measured my chamber were 59.6mm from base to point and the ones I loaded after measuring were just shy of 63mm.

Now with such a difference in length I was expecting there to be some obvious difference in accuracy or point of impact but there wasn't really anything noticable.

I didn't change the powder charge at all and it was also 3 different projectiles.

All the rounds I fired weren't inaccurate, I was getting groups between. 5 and 1.2 inches. With 10 rounds fired in succession to a 1.2" group.
The rifle is a Tikka T3x varmint, should I be trying for more accuracy or should i just be happy with what i have already.
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Re: Testing loads.

Post by Oldbloke » 13 May 2018, 9:16 pm

If it's for hunting 1" @ 100yards will be fine. Just depend what your live target size is and range.

I set my bullets 20 thou off the lands and so far accuracy has been good.
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Re: Testing loads.

Post by tom604 » 13 May 2018, 9:48 pm

which ones did the .5 group, was it consistent? need a bit more information, different weight projectiles should make a difference to point of impact,(lighter should print higher) not sure if seating the bullet out more will change point of impact more a opening/tightening group type of thing :unknown: :thumbsup:
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Re: Testing loads.

Post by Diddums » 13 May 2018, 9:54 pm

Oldbloke wrote:If it's for hunting 1" @ 100yards will be fine. Just depend what your live target size is and range.

I set my bullets 20 thou off the lands and so far accuracy has been good.


Yes, just general hunting.
Game ranges from rabbits to big rabbits and anywhere from 100-300m.
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Re: Testing loads.

Post by Diddums » 13 May 2018, 10:00 pm

tom604 wrote:which ones did the .5 group, was it consistent? need a bit more information, different weight projectiles should make a difference to point of impact,(lighter should print higher) not sure if seating the bullet out more will change point of impact more a opening/tightening group type of thing :unknown: :thumbsup:


They were all 55gn projectiles, Hornady Z-Max, Sierra Spitzer BT & Sierra SPBT.

The .5 groups was a Sierra SPBT seated about 5 thou off the lands.
But I've had similar results from the others before as well.
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Re: Testing loads.

Post by tom604 » 13 May 2018, 11:34 pm

so you've shot .5 groups with all the projectiles at one time or other. the same with the shorter seated bullets as well? maybe try a different powder (if you haven't tried a few already) but if you are getting .5 groups (long or short seated) just pick the projectile that you are getting the most consistent groups with and run with that, everyone has good and bad days it maybe that on a good day you can shoot .5 and on a bad day you shoot moa,, seems like you have played with the ,off the lands bit so it could be that that's the accuracy that your going to get, only change one thing at a time so you can keep track of what changes, i'm with old bloke 1 inch if fine but we all want more :thumbsup:
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Re: Testing loads.

Post by Stix » 14 May 2018, 11:23 pm

Hi Diddums
In case you're not aware, treat every brand & batch of projectile as being different...especially if you're seating so close to the lands.

Infact ive had .015"-.025" difference between 2 different batches of the same nosler BT, where one batch was .015" shorter OAL but .025" longer in base to ogive than the next batch.

So if you're seating one proj .005" off the lands, & you seat different proj's without checking/changing the seater die, that different proj may well be .020" off the lands...or jammed, & this can give you vastly varying results.

So if you're not already doing it, check a few bullets of each batch for the distance to the lands. :thumbsup:

Like tom says, pick the most consistant bullet so far, & try that one...
Try that bullet with different charges of a given powder.
Then try the best couple of charge weights with the bullet seated at different depths.

Im not entirely sure of exactly what you've tested, so apologies if im suggesting things you're already doing. :)
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Re: Testing loads.

Post by Diddums » 15 May 2018, 7:01 am

Stix wrote:Hi Diddums
In case you're not aware, treat every brand & batch of projectile as being different...especially if you're seating so close to the lands.

Infact ive had .015"-.025" difference between 2 different batches of the same nosler BT, where one batch was .015" shorter OAL but .025" longer in base to ogive than the next batch.

So if you're seating one proj .005" off the lands, & you seat different proj's without checking/changing the seater die, that different proj may well be .020" off the lands...or jammed, & this can give you vastly varying results.

So if you're not already doing it, check a few bullets of each batch for the distance to the lands. :thumbsup:

Like tom says, pick the most consistant bullet so far, & try that one...
Try that bullet with different charges of a given powder.
Then try the best couple of charge weights with the bullet seated at different depths.

Im not entirely sure of exactly what you've tested, so apologies if im suggesting things you're already doing. :)


Any inputs welcome, I'm relatively new to hand loading so things to look for are good to know.
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Re: Testing loads.

Post by Diddums » 15 May 2018, 9:35 pm

Loaded up another 22 rounds to test and I'm using AR2206H this time instead of BM2.

I started from min load and went up to max load in 0.5gn increments.
I measured the headspace of each case and the COAL of each completed round with the hornady comparator kits to make sure that they were all as close as possible.

Looking forward to seeing what the results are.
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Re: Testing loads.

Post by Diddums » 16 May 2018, 8:07 pm

I went out and did some load testing this afternoon and I'm rather happy with the results.
The last group is a 4 shot group, the rest are 3 shot groups.
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Re: Testing loads.

Post by Gwion » 17 May 2018, 8:23 am

Diddums wrote:I went out and did some load testing this afternoon and I'm rather happy with the results.
The last group is a 4 shot group, the rest are 3 shot groups.
target_image.jpg


I would stop screwing around with powders and charges at this stage. Take your 34.5 load and make 15 rounds. Then make 15 rounds at o.2gn either side of that charge.

Slowly and deliberately fire 3x 5round groups from each load. Pick which ever is most consistent in group size and shape and call that your load.

The 34.5gn load is not only the smallest but the groups either side are similar in pattern and size to each other. This tells be somewhere in thatt 1gn range is your sweet spot but you need more data points to confirm it's not just random luck.
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Re: Testing loads.

Post by Gaznazdiak » 17 May 2018, 9:33 am

Stix wrote:Hi Diddums
In case you're not aware, treat every brand & batch of projectile as being different...especially if you're seating so close to the lands.

Infact ive had .015"-.025" difference between 2 different batches of the same nosler BT, where one batch was .015" shorter OAL but .025" longer in base to ogive than the next batch.

So if you're seating one proj .005" off the lands, & you seat different proj's without checking/changing the seater die, that different proj may well be .020" off the lands...or jammed, & this can give you vastly varying results.

So if you're not already doing it, check a few bullets of each batch for the distance to the lands. :thumbsup:

Like tom says, pick the most consistant bullet so far, & try that one...
Try that bullet with different charges of a given powder.
Then try the best couple of charge weights with the bullet seated at different depths.

Im not entirely sure of exactly what you've tested, so apologies if im suggesting things you're already doing. :)


Hey Stix
I'm not contradicting, just asking because I am close to the bottom of the learning curve in the reloading dept, so maybe I have something misunderstood.
If you have your seating die set for a certain COAL for a given type of projectile, isn't the distance between where the die meets the ogive and the base of the shell holder what determines COAL?
If so, wouldn't a slight variation of length in the projectiles mean they would just be seated either deeper or shallower into the shell rather than closer to or further from the lands?
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Re: Testing loads.

Post by sungazer » 17 May 2018, 11:43 am

A good die will push on the Ogive of the projectile which is a fair way back from the point on a lot of todays bullets. In theory the manufacturer makes this point of the projectile very consistently. The Lee die as standard issue will push on the tip of the bullet when seating. The bullets total length from base to tip will vary even in match projectiles I have seen more than 10 thou. Even the Redding dies and the VLD stems dont really push on the ogive from what I have measured and I have bought from the US 223 6mm 6.5mm 7.62mm VLD seating stems and measured them all while they dont hit the tips of the projectiles the stems IMHO are not quite wide enough in diameter to seat to the ogive. I may be totally wrong in that its a very hard call to make.
Anyway when you seat to the ogive which is the part that will make contact with the lands. Nothing smaller in diameter will. The distance from that point should all be the same. The length from the base of the case to the tip of the loaded round will vary 10-20 thou depending on the projectile differences.
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Re: Testing loads.

Post by Gaznazdiak » 17 May 2018, 3:15 pm

sungazer wrote:A good die will push on the Ogive of the projectile which is a fair way back from the point on a lot of todays bullets. In theory the manufacturer makes this point of the projectile very consistently. The Lee die as standard issue will push on the tip of the bullet when seating. The bullets total length from base to tip will vary even in match projectiles I have seen more than 10 thou. Even the Redding dies and the VLD stems dont really push on the ogive from what I have measured and I have bought from the US 223 6mm 6.5mm 7.62mm VLD seating stems and measured them all while they dont hit the tips of the projectiles the stems IMHO are not quite wide enough in diameter to seat to the ogive. I may be totally wrong in that its a very hard call to make.
Anyway when you seat to the ogive which is the part that will make contact with the lands. Nothing smaller in diameter will. The distance from that point should all be the same. The length from the base of the case to the tip of the loaded round will vary 10-20 thou depending on the projectile differences.


I use Lee .223 dies and the seating die leaves a faint, but clearly discernable ring on the ogive, which is why I thought the above.
One thing I learned early on in reloading is that it's not always intuitive, and what might seem logical to the novice may be something else entirely.
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Re: Testing loads.

Post by bladeracer » 17 May 2018, 3:31 pm

sungazer wrote:The Lee die as standard issue will push on the tip of the bullet when seating.


All my dies are Lee and none of them push on the point of the bullet. They leave a faint ring around the ogive where they touch.
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Re: Testing loads.

Post by SCJ429 » 17 May 2018, 7:39 pm

You can polish up the little cup that holds the projectile while seating if it is marking it. Flat based projectiles are the go for short range accuracy, out to 300 metres. ZMax are great little performers and can shoot in the low .2s out of a Tikka (22/250). Some of your improvement may come from technique a better rest, more magnification or a lighter trigger. If you can shoot .5 then you are pretty close. Five shot groups give you a better indication of a loads potential. P.S. If you don't have a Yo Dave trigger spring in your Tikka, then treat yourself to a $10 massive improvement.
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Re: Testing loads.

Post by sungazer » 17 May 2018, 7:40 pm

We must be using different bullets as i have Lee dies for all my calibers as well and when I found the problem with one I checked the others and sure enough same problem. I ended up drilling into the end of the seating stem a little and also bought a carbide burr the shape of a hybrid or vld and modified the seating stem. You can tell if you have a problem by removing the seating stem and placing a projectile in it. The seating stem should touch the bullet around the top edge, if it is hitting the end it will wobble in the stem
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Re: Testing loads.

Post by Stix » 17 May 2018, 8:19 pm

Gaznazdiak wrote:
Stix wrote:Hi Diddums
In case you're not aware, treat every brand & batch of projectile as being different...especially if you're seating so close to the lands.

Infact ive had .015"-.025" difference between 2 different batches of the same nosler BT, where one batch was .015" shorter OAL but .025" longer in base to ogive than the next batch.

So if you're seating one proj .005" off the lands, & you seat different proj's without checking/changing the seater die, that different proj may well be .020" off the lands...or jammed, & this can give you vastly varying results.

So if you're not already doing it, check a few bullets of each batch for the distance to the lands. :thumbsup:

Like tom says, pick the most consistant bullet so far, & try that one...
Try that bullet with different charges of a given powder.
Then try the best couple of charge weights with the bullet seated at different depths.

Im not entirely sure of exactly what you've tested, so apologies if im suggesting things you're already doing. :)


Hey Stix
I'm not contradicting, just asking because I am close to the bottom of the learning curve in the reloading dept, so maybe I have something misunderstood.
If you have your seating die set for a certain COAL for a given type of projectile, isn't the distance between where the die meets the ogive and the base of the shell holder what determines COAL?
If so, wouldn't a slight variation of length in the projectiles mean they would just be seated either deeper or shallower into the shell rather than closer to or further from the lands?


Hi Gaz...what sungazer said...!!
And my attempt to answer to you...
I always thought every round i loaded should be the same once pressed out too--in theory--but i found occasions where rounds were all over the joint in base to ogive...but i always assumed the seater die is machined in such a way so it will only touch the ogive.

Having asked guys on here (if my memory serves me correct-i think sungazer & marksman mentioned something a while back when i posted a question about micro seater dies) i have learned that dies aren't all machined that way & some do touch the bullet at the tip.
Again from memory, marksman & maybe others have even drilled out the stem of vld seater dies to aid in consistant seating.
Ive not yet gone to that extent (only due to available time).

I once had nos bt's as mentioned in earler post that had a huge difference between batches.
I didnt check for differences between them before loading, & the load test i did was all over the place.
Where i got results on the first round of testing, confirmation wasnt there on the 2nd shoot--in fact i got such varied results i thought someone mustv slipped me a mickee... :crazy:
So i tried again & got good results but at opposite ends of the charge weights--(so what happened was during the 2nd load test i had switched to another batch--effectively a COMPLETELY different projectile)
Thankfully i kept one dummy round & a spare proj from the first batch & discovered that due to the diff in ogive, there was a difference of up to .040" off the lands between all 3 load tests. :roll:
Anyway, i learned the hard expensive way--that was 120 rounds over 3 months :shock: with no result :thumbsdown: & my scalp scratched down to my skull wondering wtf was going on. :unknown: (i wanted to hurl that rifle down the street at one point :twisted: )

So i now always test measure a good few of each batch of bullets & write down oal & ogive, & expect to adjust seater die every batch of bullets.

So now im off to eat then start loading for a hopeful session on saturday. :thumbsup:
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Re: Testing loads.

Post by Gaznazdiak » 18 May 2018, 10:12 am

Stix wrote:
Gaznazdiak wrote:
Stix wrote:Hi Diddums
In case you're not aware, treat every brand & batch of projectile as being different...especially if you're seating so close to the lands.

Infact ive had .015"-.025" difference between 2 different batches of the same nosler BT, where one batch was .015" shorter OAL but .025" longer in base to ogive than the next batch.

So if you're seating one proj .005" off the lands, & you seat different proj's without checking/changing the seater die, that different proj may well be .020" off the lands...or jammed, & this can give you vastly varying results.

So if you're not already doing it, check a few bullets of each batch for the distance to the lands. :thumbsup:

Like tom says, pick the most consistant bullet so far, & try that one...
Try that bullet with different charges of a given powder.
Then try the best couple of charge weights with the bullet seated at different depths.

Im not entirely sure of exactly what you've tested, so apologies if im suggesting things you're already doing. :)


Hey Stix
I'm not contradicting, just asking because I am close to the bottom of the learning curve in the reloading dept, so maybe I have something misunderstood.
If you have your seating die set for a certain COAL for a given type of projectile, isn't the distance between where the die meets the ogive and the base of the shell holder what determines COAL?
If so, wouldn't a slight variation of length in the projectiles mean they would just be seated either deeper or shallower into the shell rather than closer to or further from the lands?


Hi Gaz...what sungazer said...!!
And my attempt to answer to you...
I always thought every round i loaded should be the same once pressed out too--in theory--but i found occasions where rounds were all over the joint in base to ogive...but i always assumed the seater die is machined in such a way so it will only touch the ogive.

Having asked guys on here (if my memory serves me correct-i think sungazer & marksman mentioned something a while back when i posted a question about micro seater dies) i have learned that dies aren't all machined that way & some do touch the bullet at the tip.
Again from memory, marksman & maybe others have even drilled out the stem of vld seater dies to aid in consistant seating.
Ive not yet gone to that extent (only due to available time).

I once had nos bt's as mentioned in earler post that had a huge difference between batches.
I didnt check for differences between them before loading, & the load test i did was all over the place.
Where i got results on the first round of testing, confirmation wasnt there on the 2nd shoot--in fact i got such varied results i thought someone mustv slipped me a mickee... :crazy:
So i tried again & got good results but at opposite ends of the charge weights--(so what happened was during the 2nd load test i had switched to another batch--effectively a COMPLETELY different projectile)
Thankfully i kept one dummy round & a spare proj from the first batch & discovered that due to the diff in ogive, there was a difference of up to .040" off the lands between all 3 load tests. :roll:
Anyway, i learned the hard expensive way--that was 120 rounds over 3 months :shock: with no result :thumbsdown: & my scalp scratched down to my skull wondering wtf was going on. :unknown: (i wanted to hurl that rifle down the street at one point :twisted: )

So i now always test measure a good few of each batch of bullets & write down oal & ogive, & expect to adjust seater die every batch of bullets.

So now im off to eat then start loading for a hopeful session on saturday. :thumbsup:


:thumbsup:

Sounds logical.
When you are dealing with thousandth of an inch measurements something only has to be a poofteenth out to put something else out etc.
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Re: Testing loads.

Post by Diddums » 23 May 2018, 10:23 pm

Went and tested another 15 rounds of the 35.5gn ammo, got some good results. They were all 5 shot groups.

The first group I rushed a bit but I slowed it down for the second and third.
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I think might run with this and see how I go
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