Scope rings - expensive va cheap?

Rifle scopes, iron sights and optics. Spotting scopes and target acquisition devices.

Scope rings - expensive va cheap?

Post by TassieTiger » 15 Nov 2018, 5:57 pm

As a relatively new shooter, I often wonder at the huge discrepancy in prices across different equipment - can a $10k shotgun be that much better thsn my ata? Can a Nightforce be that much better than a bush bell?

My next piece of equipment that confuses me is scope rings.
I have a rifle with Leo scope rings, with steyr rings and some rifles with Chinese knock offs...
So with in mind - What do you get for the extra $100-$200 in ring prices - top of range vs cheap?? Better steel? Better grip on the scope? Lighter weight??
Tikka T3 .260
Steyr Pro Varmint .223
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22
Webley .177
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g
Steyr Pro Hunt 30-06
TassieTiger
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 431
Tasmania

Re: Scope rings - expensive va cheap?

Post by SCJ429 » 15 Nov 2018, 7:24 pm

Burris Signiture Zee rings are budget rings and have been used to set world records. Other than that, you get what you pay for.
SCJ429
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 701
New South Wales

Re: Scope rings - expensive va cheap?

Post by TassieTiger » 15 Nov 2018, 7:35 pm

You get what you pay for is not always an accurate statement - and I’m trying to understand how that statement applies to rings...what additional benefits do you get from $200 rings vs $12 rings ? Cheaper ring set I received today have weaver bases, threaded Allen heads, they look perfectly circular, are appear machined accurately with large base bolts...
Tikka T3 .260
Steyr Pro Varmint .223
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22
Webley .177
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g
Steyr Pro Hunt 30-06
TassieTiger
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 431
Tasmania

Re: Scope rings - expensive va cheap?

Post by Apollo » 15 Nov 2018, 8:11 pm

TassieTiger wrote:You get what you pay for is not always an accurate statement - and I’m trying to understand how that statement applies to rings...what additional benefits do you get from $200 rings vs $12 rings ? Cheaper ring set I received today have weaver bases, threaded Allen heads, they look perfectly circular, are appear machined accurately with large base bolts...


Wow, Weaver Bases which can or not be anywhere between here and the gate post as far as precision.

Talk Picatinny and find out what is precision and what is rubbish. And no, a true Picattiny mount will not fit a Weaver Rail or is that the other way around which I forget but Weaver is just just and that's it, not Mil Spec.

You DO GET what you pay for in very high quality Rings...

I think you have a lot to learn my friend when you delve into true precision firearms, not cheap toys. It's a very big learning curve and when you progress that way with help from many others I'd say that in years down the track you will appreciate the result. Big learning curve until there I'd say.
User avatar
Apollo
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 1136
New South Wales

Re: Scope rings - expensive va cheap?

Post by No1_49er » 15 Nov 2018, 9:49 pm

Apollo wrote:
TassieTiger wrote:You get what you pay for is not always an accurate statement - and I’m trying to understand how that statement applies to rings...what additional benefits do you get from $200 rings vs $12 rings ? Cheaper ring set I received today have weaver bases, threaded Allen heads, they look perfectly circular, are appear machined accurately with large base bolts...


Wow, Weaver Bases which can or not be anywhere between here and the gate post as far as precision.

Talk Picatinny and find out what is precision and what is rubbish. And no, a true Picattiny mount will not fit a Weaver Rail or is that the other way around which I forget but Weaver is just just and that's it, not Mil Spec.

You DO GET what you pay for in very high quality Rings...

I think you have a lot to learn my friend when you delve into true precision firearms, not cheap toys. It's a very big learning curve and when you progress that way with help from many others I'd say that in years down the track you will appreciate the result. Big learning curve until there I'd say.

I think that OP has asked a perfectly reasonable question which is not answered simply by saying "Talk Picatinny and find out what is precision and what is rubbish".
The Picatinny spec (MIL-STD-1913) is a standard that was adopted "for the mounting of accessories". Certainly there are dimensional specifications, but does that make them better than anything that is non mil-spec?

I have what might reasonably be called a true precision firearm. Does it have, or need, anything Picatinny/Mil-spec fitted to it to shoot truly tiny groups. Nope. It does wear a Nightforce mounted in Kelbly's rings though, neither of which meets your Picatinny/precision requirements.

For the benefit of us all Apollo, please expand your statement and tell us Exactly what it is we get by indulging in some Picatinny stuff.
Mil-spec - so what? Are you going to tell us that Kelbly's rings are NFG on a bench gun? Or that Leupold rings aren't up to it on a TRG. You'd be right - they are NOT Picatinny spec! But they sure as hell are not sh!t.
Sometimes I get the feeling that the more somebody is prepared to pay for an item, there is an assumption that it must be better, purely because of the cost. Reminds me of second-hand traders - if it doesn't sell, put the price up until it does.
The ball's in your court Apollo - enlighten us.
Proud member of "the powerful gun lobby" of Australia :)
No1_49er
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 294
Queensland

Re: Scope rings - expensive va cheap?

Post by eddahenry » 15 Nov 2018, 10:09 pm

Stight up the way the are machined
Expensive mounts are Pined together or made in once piece than bored and cut so both are the same'
If your base or rail is straight ,, the rings will be dead in line through the Axis of the scope tube.
they are finished nicer , no sharp edges to leave ring marks on your tube , My EGW tac rings can be cranked down and wont leave marks on the tube
try cranking down on a cheap set of Chinese rings
they hold better
they mount flat and square to the rail
High end rings can come with a level witch is ,, SHock horror is LEVEL
Most high end rings are Picatinny mounted because the Standard for it has extremely tight tolerances
But again if you buy 300 dollar rings and mount them to a 20 dollar rail ,, you have a 20 dollar set of rings.
its all about holding the scope dead straight down the Axis of the tube (this wont impart stresses into your scope) whilst onto of a recoiling gun.
but its like anything
If you have a 200 dollar scope 20 dollar rings are fine
But if you have a 3000 dollar scope prob best to spend 300
the way i buy optics
spend what you spent on your gun on a scope
spend 10% to 20% of the scope value on rings
Spend 20 to 25% scope value on Rails / Bases
eddahenry
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 85
Western Australia

Re: Scope rings - expensive va cheap?

Post by Apollo » 15 Nov 2018, 11:40 pm

The "OP" Tassie Tiger is asking the difference in the price/quality of why some Rings are so expensive.

I am reading the last couple of replies and I will try an sum the whole lot up later, too tired after chasing varmints tonight/morning.

Just quick "eh" has a guist on what I'm about. "49"er I think you are more interested in having a shot at me rather than think about the topic. Again sorry, it's too late so I'll stay my regards till I can pick the faults.
User avatar
Apollo
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 1136
New South Wales

Re: Scope rings - expensive va cheap?

Post by Daddybang » 16 Nov 2018, 6:29 am

Apollo wrote:The "OP" Tassie Tiger is asking the difference in the price/quality of why some Rings are so expensive.

I am reading the last couple of replies and I will try an sum the whole lot up later, too tired after chasing varmints tonight/morning.

Just quick "eh" has a guist on what I'm about. "49"er I think you are more interested in having a shot at me rather than think about the topic. Again sorry, it's too late so I'll stay my regards till I can pick the faults.


What would Apollo know about scopes and rings or shooting in general???
:sarcasm: :lol: :thumbsup: :drinks:
This hard living ain't as easy as it used to be!!!
Daddybang
Brigadier
Brigadier
 
Posts: 2458
Queensland

Re: Scope rings - expensive va cheap?

Post by TassieTiger » 16 Nov 2018, 6:56 am

Appreciate all replies. Thank you and good discussion.
I have a set of Leo rings with level bubble ($189) and I now have a set of $12 Chinese knockoffs.
I’m sitting here looking side by side and just can’t see a difference, they weigh the same, they are all finished impeccably, they all look concentric - but, I know there has to be differences in favour of the Leo..metallurgical differences, precision, detail, etc as others have said - but I just can’t see it. I might try them on a rim fire and see...

When I first started out I bought a $30 bipod from eBay. When a friend (who has been in the game for 40 years) looked at it, he mistook it for a much more expensive brand and when I told him what it was, he actually travelled home, recovered his and he then compared. Long story short - he ended up buying a couple of cheap bi pods.

Maybe? With the large discrepancy in prices across multiple products- Is it worth making a thread where people have found excellent value products? And for where ppl have confirmed that crap is absolutely crap?
Tikka T3 .260
Steyr Pro Varmint .223
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22
Webley .177
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g
Steyr Pro Hunt 30-06
TassieTiger
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 431
Tasmania

Re: Scope rings - expensive va cheap?

Post by bigfellascott » 16 Nov 2018, 7:06 am

I would think it would as others have said come down to the preciseness of the machining and the processes and materials used. For me I don't feel a need to spend heaps on firearms/accessories to bang flop things in a paddock, for those who chase small groups in the hope of winning a little trophy or medalian etc it's important for them to feel they have the best gear they can afford in an effort to compete.

I certainly don't need a Bentley to go down the road to do my shopping, however some feel the opposite and can't stomach the thought of driving something less than a $1mil - I guess it just comes down to one's taste and desires etc as to what they need to get something done.

Me I'm happy with basic that works!
User avatar
bigfellascott
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 5236
-

Re: Scope rings - expensive va cheap?

Post by Ziad » 16 Nov 2018, 7:16 am

Why are Chinese knockoffs cheap

They don't do r&d. Have cheap labour, have no marketing expenses, don't support shooters, don't really have warranty expenses, don't pay distributors or retailers. And yes the quality of materials used is inferior. Many times which cannot be seen by the naked eyes.
Blame it on the phone auto correct
Ziad
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 722
Victoria

Re: Scope rings - expensive va cheap?

Post by TassieTiger » 16 Nov 2018, 9:14 am

Ziad wrote:Why are Chinese knockoffs cheap

They don't do r&d. Have cheap labour, have no marketing expenses, don't support shooters, don't really have warranty expenses, don't pay distributors or retailers. And yes the quality of materials used is inferior. Many times which cannot be seen by the naked eyes.


Just by chance - what would you say if you found out that Leo rings were manufactured next to cheapies, using the same tooling but just with better Q control...?

A few years back, Chinese must have purchased the patents / etc to air cooled Honda trail bike motors.
They then bumped out millions of the things for next to nothing and then - over the years - fine tuned their Q control and now, I walk into a Honda shop, they look at the part and replace it with a Honda stamped part...

With tooling and labour costs at insanely low prices in some countries, it’s hard to believe the top end manufacturing companies do not take advantage...

It’s interesting where it will all end up...
Tikka T3 .260
Steyr Pro Varmint .223
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22
Webley .177
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g
Steyr Pro Hunt 30-06
TassieTiger
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 431
Tasmania

Re: Scope rings - expensive va cheap?

Post by Ziad » 16 Nov 2018, 10:46 am

By chance I could easily imagine that u could get seconds of rings easily. And I ros easily imagine a Chinese guy getting one of those seconds and getting his craftsmen to make another copy (of the rejected copy) and that's what u buying of wish.com. for most ppl they couldn't tell the difference except the different screws used or instead of 1st grade aircraft quality Al its rejected grade Al and that's its 50g heavier or has a few bubbles. Maybe it never cracks.

But that's not ther point of my argument. My argument is how will you feel if your boss replaced you with a cheap Chinese 457 Visa guy working at 1/3 your wage. If not enough ppl will buy the originals than the they won't do RnD and we won't get an new and improved.

And regarding Chinese honda, firstly they got the license to make it for honda Japan. Then another company copied the copy and another copied them and so on... there are likely hundreds of companies making copy honda engine. The real honda doesn't care, but if you look your copy honda to claim warranty at real honda, you are being deceptive. And don't think the china copy honda manufacture gives you any warranty.

Not saying i don't have Chinese crap.... got plenty but I don't think its the real or as good as real. Have a fake Harris style, and it's on the 22lr. Have a Chinese pressure washer, it lasts about 1-2 years at the max. Usually the handle or the pump dies
Blame it on the phone auto correct
Ziad
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 722
Victoria

Re: Scope rings - expensive va cheap?

Post by TassieTiger » 16 Nov 2018, 12:10 pm

Ziad wrote:
But that's not ther point of my argument. My argument is how will you feel if your boss replaced you with a cheap Chinese 457 Visa guy working at 1/3 your wage. If not enough ppl will buy the originals than the they won't do RnD dies


Surely, this horse had predominantly bolted...free trade agreements, massive patent breeches, ongoing rip offs, etc etc...its a one way street. I think the Chinese “failures” are what currently keep many manufacturers afloat — just as Hyundai was once laughable pieces of junk but now compete with the likes of Mazda, eventually the Chinese crap will morph...unfortunate for other world manufacturers but they will need to change somehow...Just my opinion of course...
Tikka T3 .260
Steyr Pro Varmint .223
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22
Webley .177
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g
Steyr Pro Hunt 30-06
TassieTiger
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 431
Tasmania

Re: Scope rings - expensive va cheap?

Post by bigfellascott » 16 Nov 2018, 12:35 pm

Lets face it scope mounts don't exactly do much do they, not like they have moving parts to wear out. So long as they are reasonably well machined I'm sure the cheapies will last well, I think I have some cheapies on a 22 that's getting on around 32yrs old now and they have never given me any concerns what so ever, always been rock solid.

I think people get way to carried away with things like this at times, so long as the things work who cares who makes em, just so long as they are reliable and not over the top $$$ wise I'm happy to use em.

When it comes to motors etc, well that's a different story, I wouldn't waste my money on chinese engines, seen too many that are piles of s**t and just aren't worth rebuilding or repairing at times, mind you - we do use plenty of the Chinese knock-off parts when repairing chainsaws, mowers etc which seem to be a reasonable cost effective way to repair things at times (some genuine parts are way over the top $$ wise) so not really a viable option for some folks. :thumbsup:
User avatar
bigfellascott
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 5236
-

Re: Scope rings - expensive va cheap?

Post by TassieTiger » 16 Nov 2018, 2:25 pm

And you’ve nailed my sceptism - are people paying for the name on the side of some mounts?
Tikka T3 .260
Steyr Pro Varmint .223
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22
Webley .177
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g
Steyr Pro Hunt 30-06
TassieTiger
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 431
Tasmania

Re: Scope rings - expensive va cheap?

Post by No1_49er » 16 Nov 2018, 3:30 pm

TassieTiger wrote:And you’ve nailed my sceptism - are people paying for the name on the side of some mounts?

I reckon you've picked up on that pretty well, TT.
I'd say a close analogy would be Nike trainers and the likes of Wesfarmers K whatsit, or any of the others. The $10 pair will probably last just as long, and when they're worn out you bin them and find another pair. I'll bet that the Nike's (or whatever) will wear out long before you've been through 16 or 20 pairs of the cheapies.
Versace sunny's anyone - only 200+
Or Louis Vuitton for the chaps - 900 seems reasonable :thumbsdown:
Mustn't leave the ladies out - Kardashian cosmetics.

Mind you, there's cheap knock-offs of those too :)

Yes TT, I think you've nailed it as well :thumbsup:
Proud member of "the powerful gun lobby" of Australia :)
No1_49er
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 294
Queensland

Re: Scope rings - expensive va cheap?

Post by Gamerancher » 16 Nov 2018, 3:57 pm

Tassietiger, you stated that "A few years back, Chinese must have purchased the patents / etc to air cooled Honda trail bike motors."

The Chinese totally disregard patent laws, they don't apply in their country. Their M.O. is to get hold of something, reverse engineer it, then mass produce at the lowest possible cost.
By all means, if you reckon your $20 knock-offs are the same as the $200 branded ones, have at it.
As someone above has said, I'm f*cked if I'll mount a $2000 scope in a set of $20 Chinese rings.
User avatar
Gamerancher
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 1152
New South Wales

Next

Back to top
 
Return to Scopes, sights and optics