Night vision Scope 17 hmr

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Night vision Scope 17 hmr

Post by Faedy » 09 Feb 2019, 11:34 pm

I wouldnt mind dabbling with a n NV scope on a new 17hmr Im putting together
Anyone had experience with the ATN X-Sight II Smart HD 3-14x Day & Night Vision Rifle Scope Wifi Full HD 1080p https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ATN-X-Sight ... :rk:1:pf:0
Any other recommendations?
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Re: Night vision Scope 17 hmr

Post by SCJ429 » 09 Feb 2019, 11:40 pm

I recommend you don't buy it unless you like being disappointed.
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Re: Night vision Scope 17 hmr

Post by TassieTiger » 10 Feb 2019, 1:13 am

I second that based on advice given here that lead me to research confirming the same...a crock of poontang.
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Re: Night vision Scope 17 hmr

Post by marksman » 10 Feb 2019, 11:19 am

I third that vote as being someone who owned the bigger version then could not offload it quick enough :thumbsup:
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Re: Night vision Scope 17 hmr

Post by Faedy » 10 Feb 2019, 10:39 pm

Sweet - thanks for that
Saves me being disappointed
Any affordable recommendations?
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Re: Night vision Scope 17 hmr

Post by SCJ429 » 11 Feb 2019, 6:49 am

An Olight torch has helped me get heaps of foxes and only cost a couple of hundred.
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Re: Night vision Scope 17 hmr

Post by Rod_outbak » 11 Feb 2019, 7:21 am

I bought a Pulsar N750 IR NV scope in 2013, for ~$1700.
4.5x50mm, though I think there was a digital zoom that brought it up to 6x?? (useless anyway)
The N750 has an IR illuminator built onto it, but doesnt have all the GPS/Compas/Rangefinder crap on it.
We had bucketloads of wild dogs at the time, so the idea of sniping from the dark was quite appealing, and the money would have been well worth it, if the scope had been half as good as advertised.

The scope didnt like the recoil from the Tikka T3 (7mm-08), and I passed it between a number of other rifles. I did nail a few grasshoppers and a couple of rabbits while I had it mounted on the .243 (grasshoppers were ~85-90 metres), but it was bloody cumbersome, and you are pulling the trigger without a decent cheek-weld, which doesnt help for distant shots.
When I was setting up the Vortex Crossfire scope on the new CZ .17HMR the other day, I also spent the time to sight in the Pulsar as well.
It seems to be able to hold a grouping at 50 metres on the .17, but I havent had time to test it out on some of the rabbits that ghost around in the night here.

We did also play around with a 'Nite-Site EAGLE' IR scope adapter(~$1800 in 2015), which converts your existing optical scope into a NV scope, by plugging on an IR camera at the back(rubber sleeve), and then mounting a screen/emitter above the scope. It has the benefit of using the optics of your current scope, and just allowing you to see in the dark. If you have money invested in decent optics, this gives somewhat better flexibility.
It does work, and we again nailed a few test ferals with it. Way too bulky for extended use, and the rubber sleeve at the back (mounts the camera) can foul the bolt handle, if you have tight clearance between scope and bolt handle (as on our .243). Also, the rubber sleeve sits over the zoom adjust on most scopes, so you are kinda stuck with whatever zoom you were on when fitting it. (You can adjust zoom, but you then have to align the scope camera again)

My experience with IR NV scopes & cameras, is they are like spotlighting for roos with a small narrow-beam hand torch. Might be great IF you have a rabbit warren you are watching from a hide/perch, but freaking annoying if you are scouting around for targets(like out spotlighting in a car).

I'm keen to see someone bring an affordable thermal rifle scope onto the market. Even better would be a three-way optical/thermal/IR digiscope, which can overlay all three image types onto the screen.
At this stage, I dont know of anything affordable like this, or where I'd buy the big-arse battery I'd need to run it...

My other dream would be having the ute sporting BIG Blacklight IR floods on the roof, and then you wear some sort of AR glasses that allow you to see the lit-up surrounds without needing to look through the scope. That way, you might be able to prowl around in complete darkness.

I think the technology needs to evolve more, before it's worth investing much money in it. I like the idea of pokking something from the darkness, but the reality is it's a great way to blow a lot of money (at this stage..) for little result.

Thats my experience, at least...
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Re: Night vision Scope 17 hmr

Post by Faedy » 11 Feb 2019, 11:01 pm

^^ Thats damn good advice there. Maybe i stick to spotlights..
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Re: Night vision Scope 17 hmr

Post by wanneroo » 12 Feb 2019, 6:21 am

I use night optics for work and also teach a class on it. I learn new stuff about the them all the time and the technology continues to develop both on the analog and digital fronts in night vision.

Like a lot of stuff, you get what you pay for. The cheaper digital scopes and lens are slow to respond to changes in light, give a delayed image in many dozens of milliseconds(which makes it difficult to make accurate shots or to walk around with) and often require a lot of external illumination. They don't always like recoil and the G forces involved. They are more a gimmicky thing than anything.

If you want to do serious shooting with a night optic, I'd go with something military grade that will take the strain and give you a clear image.

Not all PVS-14s are made the same, but that's what you really need to get into for a usable, lightweight night optic. Some of the older Gen 2 military grade scopes can do well but are going to heavier. On occasion some surplus hits the US market priced between $500 to $1000.
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Re: Night vision Scope 17 hmr

Post by wanneroo » 12 Feb 2019, 6:50 am

Rod_outbak wrote:
I'm keen to see someone bring an affordable thermal rifle scope onto the market. Even better would be a three-way optical/thermal/IR digiscope, which can overlay all three image types onto the screen.
At this stage, I dont know of anything affordable like this, or where I'd buy the big-arse battery I'd need to run it...

I think the technology needs to evolve more, before it's worth investing much money in it. I like the idea of pokking something from the darkness, but the reality is it's a great way to blow a lot of money (at this stage..) for little result.


Some military night optics you can switch between the intensified image and thermal, which is cool. I have only used those a few times. Right now coming on the military/gov market is optics that can blend both images together which might be interesting. Those are about $50,000 per pair at bulk government sales costs.

One issue you pointed out is that digital night optics are battery hogs. The analog scopes like a PVS-14 are pretty efficient. I think those will run on a AA battery for about 10 hours IRC.

The technology is evolving more every day. However to do what you want to do with it, well, the technology is already here, you just have to be willing to spend the money on it.
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Re: Night vision Scope 17 hmr

Post by Bruiser64 » 12 Feb 2019, 9:13 am

This thread is very interesting to me as I have toyed with the idea of night vision on my 204. This thread confirms the other research I have done which indicates you need to spend more money on Gen 2 gear. The problem I see is the ATN 4K pro night scope costs as much as a Swarovski or a really nice Leupold. With the Leupold or Swaro it will work just as well in 20 years as the day you bought it. The ATN? Not so much. In addition to the cost of the night vision scope you also seem to spend an additional amount on night vision binoculars to scan for game as well.
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Re: Night vision Scope 17 hmr

Post by Blr243 » 12 Feb 2019, 2:08 pm

I. Have only a small amount of bunny searching experience with a $2000 plus n v scope I have noticed that with a good I R illuminator the first thing u see will be the rabbits eyes only then with care can u make out the shape of the rabbit ... then I bought a $7000 thermal scope. In a about three weeks when I return from a good stint in the scrub I will report on the usefulness of the items
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Re: Night vision Scope 17 hmr

Post by Rod_outbak » 12 Feb 2019, 3:27 pm

A couple of points about Night Vision that I picked up from a YouTube video comparing the two types....

There are analogue and digital NV scopes on the market.

Analogue First...
The best analogue scopes are Generation 3 +, but I suspect you will struggle to source one in Australia, as they seem to be banned from export.
Analogue NV scopes use an image intensifier tube to gather the available light for the scope.
As you move up from Gen 1, the image quality improves dramatically.
As pointed out by others, these analogue scopes dont consume much power at all.
The best quality of military-grade gen-3+ scopes wont need an IR illuminator.

Plusses for analogue are low-power consumption, and the higher generation models are a very clear image, and may not need any additional illumination.
Resolution on Gen 3+ are usually higher than currently available in digital scopes.
Also, compared to digital, they tend to be less bulky scopes.

Down-sides of analogue are:
1). The tube has a defined life, and so every use shortens the life of the tube. The quality of the light intensification degrades with use, so the clock is ticking whenever you turn it on.
2). The image intensifier tube seems to be fairly fragile, and doesnt handle hard knocks well.
Basically; dont expect it to be still working if you drop it. (Not that different to some scopes, though)
3). Exposing the intensifier to direct sunlight without the cover on, will bugger it, and the tube will need replacing (expensive).
(so dont point the scope at the sun!)
4). No option for changing reticle.
5). Many analogue NV scopes use IR illuminators that are below ~850nm wavelength, and can be seen by animals.
In comparison, many of the digital NV scopes use IR illuminators above this threshold, and so arent visible to the prey.
6). Not many analogue (if any) have the option for recording direct from the scope.
7). Availability in Australia. To get better quality analogue gear, you will struggle to source it here (legally) in Australia.[Unless they've changed this in the past few years, which I doubt]

Digital NV scopes...
Pros:
1). Many digiscopes have the option to change the scope reticle. Some even allow you to download custom reticles, but it varies between brands and models.
2). Image resolution is steadily increasing, as this is very similar technology going into many high-end digital cameras, and there is a lot of work being done in improving image quality in this technology.
3). Almost all digiscopes will have output options for recording, and some even have audio as well.
4). The output options also allow for external monitors, which gives more options for watching.
5). As mentioned previously, these scopes usually use IR illuminators that are above the light spectrum that can be seen by most animals.
6). Price. For what you get, the digiscopes offer somewhat better value for money and flexibility, than the analogue scopes you can buy here on the open market. You might be able to source some of the Russian gear, but it's not cheap for the better quality, and I'd wonder if you dont get a knock on the door if you tried to source the top-shelf gear...
7). Less fragile compared to analogue systems. Still not likely to be thrilled with a drop onto the floor, but they are about as robust as most optical scopes. Also, pointing them at the sun during the shouldnt bugger them (still wouldnt reccomend it, though)
8). They dont really degrade with use (as the analogue systems are reported to do).

Cons:
1). Generally more bulky, and use a lot more power than the analogue. However, the power issue can be alleviated by external battery or power source.
2). Resolution is still behind that of the Gen 3+ gear that is available to all & sundry in the US. The sensor in most digiscopes is still quite small
3). Most digiscopes need the IR illuminator, unless it's a really bright moonlight night.
4). Price. Still tend to be somewhat over-priced for what you get.
You need to be pokking a LOT of animals to make the investment worthwhile. [Last one is my opinion...]

I have a Pulsar N750 digiscope, with built-in IR illuminator.
I also have a Gen 1 analogue monocular for spotting.
1 also have a 'Nite-Site EAGLE' NV scope adapter, which converts your rifle scope into a NV scope.

One idea I have, is to mount a couple of large IR floodlights over the area where we often see the rabbits out at night. Then, I'l be able to use the N750 from back near the house, and not have to keep moving the scope around to look for customers.
[Still think a combo NV/Thermal/Digiscope will be the ducks nuts, in the future...]

This is just what I've read, in addition to what I've learned with my 3 scopes over the past 5 years.
Take it with a grain of salt, as I'm sure there are flaws in what I've written.
However, I figured writing it down might save other people a bit of time when deciding how to delve into NV gear themselves..
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Re: Night vision Scope 17 hmr

Post by Blr243 » 12 Feb 2019, 4:22 pm

Great job rod. Very informative. Well researched. It’s great to be able to access this sort of info. Quick and free
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Re: Night vision Scope 17 hmr

Post by wanneroo » 13 Feb 2019, 2:04 am

Well written Rod.

When it comes to Gen 3 scopes like a PVS-14, I wouldn't worry about tube life. They last 10000-15000 hours. Also if you have a military grade PVS-14 they do reasonably well with knocks and drops. Of course you don't want to purposefully drop them.

PVS-14s are available in Australia to civilians. Not all PVS 14s are made the same though.

The best Gen 3 are filmless white phosphor lens.
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Re: Night vision Scope 17 hmr

Post by Rod_outbak » 13 Feb 2019, 8:36 am

wanneroo,

Does anyone make the PVS-14 in a rifle scope?

Best I can find in analogue rifle scopes available here in Australia seem to be Gen 2 at best.

A couple of reviews of digital NV scopes suggest they are about equivalent with Gen 2, but seem to be evolving rapidly.

Good to know the Gen 3 scopes are more robust/durable than earlier gear, but we still run into the difficulty of finding Gen 3 (or preferrably Gen 3+) scopes here in Australia for civilian use.
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Re: Night vision Scope 17 hmr

Post by wanneroo » 13 Feb 2019, 2:40 pm

Rod_outbak wrote:wanneroo,

Does anyone make the PVS-14 in a rifle scope?

Best I can find in analogue rifle scopes available here in Australia seem to be Gen 2 at best.

A couple of reviews of digital NV scopes suggest they are about equivalent with Gen 2, but seem to be evolving rapidly.

Good to know the Gen 3 scopes are more robust/durable than earlier gear, but we still run into the difficulty of finding Gen 3 (or preferrably Gen 3+) scopes here in Australia for civilian use.


I don't know if anyone makes a PVS-14 type scope. Usually the way these are used is helmet mounted with an IR laser on the weapon or mounted on the weapon behind a reflex sight like a EOTech with the reticle set to the night vision setting. Also people have put the EOtech 3x magnifier between the PVS 14 and the EOtech but that's a lot of crap on a rifle. I personally have an Eotech reflex sight with a 3x magnifier that I like quite a lot but not sure I would put a PVS 14 in that mix. You can also buy scope adapters for the PVS 14 as well to pair up with an ordinary rifle scope. Not sure how well those work.

I wouldn't necessarily rule out a Gen 2 scope. Gen 2 will work fine for shooting as long as you have a little starlight or you can use an IR illuminator in low light. I've seen people shoot a couple hundred yards with 40 year old surplus PVS-4 type scopes that cost $500-$700. You should be able to make out animals no problem at all on most evenings. Of course I would research those products individually and/or get a demo to see the quality you are getting. In terms of being weapon mounted for the purposes of hunting and the cost, that is probably your best bet.

Anything Gen 1 can be used without an IR illuminator but these require good moonlight to function well and these are definitely in the gimmicky category. I would avoid these for any practical use.
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Re: Night vision Scope 17 hmr

Post by wanneroo » 13 Feb 2019, 2:42 pm

I see there is at least one company that offers Gen 3 PVS 14s in Australia:

https://www.nightvision.com.au/category ... tion=gen-3
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