Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

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Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by ramshackle » 09 Sep 2019, 3:44 pm

The latest PARD offerings (NV008, NV007) are equipped with powerful laser infrared torches. Although the infrared beams emitted are invisible to the human eye, or simply a faint red glow, they can destroy cells in the retina in less than a second. IR rays cause no blink response. Made in China and sold without even a user manual, these are accidents waiting to happen. :shock: :shock:

Most lasers are powered in the milliWatts (thousandths of a Watt). The PARD lasers are 5,000 milliWatts! They are VCSEL lasers, or surface emitting lasers, a tad safer than edge emitting lasers, but not eye safe.

I've read about this at numerous sites and I urge you to be very cautious about using this equipment. It is more dangerous to you and your family than the firearm itself, because at least with the firearm you know there is a danger and take precautions. Don't let your children anywhere near this equipment.

The invisible beams can permanently damage the retina in just a fraction of a second.

The nearer you are, the worse the damage. IR beams can reflect off any nearby object, even something matte like white walls, and scatter damaging beams back at you. Always point the IR laser at distant objects when activating it.

Reflective objects like mirrors, glass, metal, water etc are to be avoided at all costs. It's as bad as looking straight at the beam.

Never point an IR laser at a human being or domestic/livestock animal.
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by Blr243 » 09 Sep 2019, 6:15 pm

EXCELLENT POST I recently bought a powerful long throw torch that has a concentrated beam that is more of a laser than a torch. It’s an acebeam w30. Just like guns or poison it should be locked up away from a child’s reach
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 09 Sep 2019, 6:37 pm

I thought anything (laser) over a few hundred milliwatts was illegal to import into Australia. Obviously borderforce hasnt realised these are lasers.
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by on_one_wheel » 09 Sep 2019, 6:50 pm

Blr243 wrote:EXCELLENT POST I recently bought a powerful long throw torch that has a concentrated beam that is more of a laser than a torch. It’s an acebeam w30. Just like guns or poison it should be locked up away from a child’s reach


Oh yeah ...nice.
I think I know which torch I'll be buying next :thumbsup:
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by No1_49er » 09 Sep 2019, 7:08 pm

Not a direct laser such as a pointer. Direct Lasers are emitted directly from a charged tube out the front.
This technology uses an phosphor chip excited by a laser shining directly back onto it, creating an intense glowing filament which is then precisely focused through a lens. Hence, not a direct laser.
Also, this unique white laser emitter transforms the blue laser energy into focused, crystal-white light (BMW is using similar phosphor technology to create laser headlamps for their vehicles).
It is NOT a Laser as such, but is Laser activated.
Did you ever see a warning that you must never look into the headlight beam of a beemer?
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by Supaduke » 09 Sep 2019, 9:10 pm

Finally BMW equip laser beams.
Don't point them in anyone's eyes,
Ok, let's drive around in traffic then.
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by Oldbloke » 10 Sep 2019, 6:09 am

Ziad wrote:I thought anything (laser) over a few hundred milliwatts was illegal to import into Australia. Obviously borderforce hasnt realised these are lasers.


Yeh, ive had a $5 pointer confiscated upon entry.
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by ramshackle » 10 Sep 2019, 6:49 am

From another site, an expert on laser safety (a former "Laser Safety Officer"), says:

Infrared between 750 nm and 1400 nm will go through the cornea, lens, and vitreous and aqueous humors and arrive focused on the retina. Above a milliwatt or so, this can cause damage. Above 5 mW or so, it can cause almost instant damage.


Now the PARD IR illuminator lasers run 850nm at 5W, so well above the "instant damage" danger zone (in fact it's 1000 times stronger than the "instant damage" level).

I think we need to take this extremely seriously. :shock:

I know that there are claims made that the use of VCSEL (Vertical Cavity Surface Emitting Laser) lasers in the newer illuminators means that there is not as much danger, but I've seen data that would suggest otherwise.

For instance, Honeywell says:

Honeywell VCSEL products cannot produce a beam capable of causing serious skin injury;however, without proper safeguards, they can cause eye damage. In a worst case exposure (direct exposure with the eye focused at a distance), a laser beam is focused by the eye in such a way that the beam is concentrated 100,000 times before striking the retina. Therefore, a 10 milliwatt/cm2 laser beam would result in a 1000 watt/cm2 exposure to the retina, more than enough to cause damage


Note that a 10mW beam is 500x weaker than the beam the PARD NV008 can produce.

From my reading it seems as if the greatest danger to us, as users of these products, is to look into the illuminator from a close distance. The damage appears to lessen the further you are away from the source. So you need to be extra, extra careful handling these units, and to repeat: NEVER let a child anywhere near one!

NuOptic gives guidelines for working with IR illuminators (that you find on night security cameras based on LEDs not lasers):

Eye Safety For Illuminators

The person with the greatest risk of exposure is the installer him/herself. This is the second circumstance under which someone may be exposed to the illuminator at close distances. The installer is inherently very close to the light source while wiring up, mounting, and adjusting the illuminator. Again, simple guidelines should be followed:
•Perform all mounting and electrical connection work with power disconnected at the source
•Operate from behind or to the side of the illuminator when it is powered
•If possible, work with an assistant on the ground for aiming or testing the system
•Remain especially vigilant when working with infrared illuminator
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by xDom » 10 Sep 2019, 8:19 am

From my understanding, the led illuminators are a lot safer than the IR lasers.
Pretty sure the Pards on board IR emitters are not lasers.
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by Stix » 10 Sep 2019, 9:31 am

I remember as a kid at some point during the late 70's--early 80's, there was a big hoo--haah about TV screens doing damage to eyes...this damage was apparently hundreds of times worse if kids layed on their tummy looking at the TV within a few metres.

While i watched my fair share of after school TV as a kid, my largest percentage of time was spent listening to music, mucking around with an old Wini saddle ring carbine pretending i was John Wayne while waiting for another starling to land in the big gum tree so i could pop it with my Walther target air rifle, but my time was mostly being out & about riding the hilly terrain of Adelaides southern suburbs on my bike.

They must have been right because i have poor eye sight...!!

There was also the huge scare of butter being poison & margarine being gods goft to spreads from a health point of view...ah wait up...a decade later its reversed...the whole time we knowingly allow sugar & its promoters to leave a trail of destruction throughout society...

And what about the sparks that will cause fuel stations to blow up from mobile phones...now that IS endangering many people's lives--so be sure to give your kids your mobile phone & leave them a ways down the street when filling your car lads...!!

I guess what im saying is, finding the ACTUAL published research on testing these illuminators is key to knowing the dangers...
Maybe starting with Aust Standards might be the go...

Dredging up heresay from random people claiming to be experts on the ever-so-trusting internet is just that...

And OldBloke...as im sure you're aware, that laser pointer was no doubt confiscated so you dont point it into the cockpit of over head aircraft, not because you'll cause everyone you meet to go instantly blind... :thumbsup:

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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by ramshackle » 10 Sep 2019, 9:51 am

xDom wrote:Pretty sure the Pards on board IR emitters are not lasers.


No, they are lasers. This is from an Alibaba advertisement (complete with Chinese spelling mistakes):

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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by ramshackle » 10 Sep 2019, 9:53 am

It's not me sounding the harsh warnings, it's the medical people:

Laser Safety Program: Biological Effects of Laser Radiation (University of California at San Diego)

Laser effects on the eye

The unprotected human eye is extremely sensitive to laser radiation and can be permanently damaged from direct or reflected beams.

Due to tissue characteristics, the area of the eye damaged by laser energy is dependent upon the wavelength of the incident laser beam. The retina, cornea, and lens are the areas most commonly damaged.

Retina:

  1. Laser light in the visible to near infrared spectrum can cause damage to the retina. These wavelengths are also know as the "retinal hazard region."
  2. Visible and near infrared (400 – 1400 nanometer or nm) laser light pose a critical hazard on the retina. Infrared A is transmitted by the cornea to the lens of the eye which narrowly focuses it on the retina, concentrating the radiant exposure of the laser by up to 100,000 times. Since the tissue structures of the retina are unable to undergo any repair, lesions caused by the focusing of visible or near-infrared light on the retina may be permanent. The most critical area of the retina is the central portion, the macula, and the fovea.
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by ramshackle » 10 Sep 2019, 9:55 am

Just a reminder that laser pointers have caused massive problems, and there is every reason to be even more concerned about lasers that cannot be seen!

Experiments on rabbits shows that near infrared (which PARD uses) causes damage that "develops immediately after illumination with near-infrared light":
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1414701

A full-thickness macular hole can result from "momentary exposure" to high-power (150-1200 mW) handheld laser devices:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25892126
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24184164

Reflected laser light can be just as dangerous (don't point the PARD at a window, mirror, water, jewellery, or metal, especially chrome!):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25932729

Laser pointer damage to eyes on the rise (is this the new asbestos?):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30280504

Monkeys show retinal damage after just 100 milliseconds (one tenth of a second) of exposure to tiny (as low as 193 mW) near infrared laser light:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19533764

Yes, the PARD illuminator is not a laser pointer, but because it does not elicit a blink-and-turn-away response, and because it runs at 5W, it could even be worse.
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by ramshackle » 10 Sep 2019, 9:58 am

Sadly, the more I read on this topic, the more alarmed and pessimistic I become.

Here are some facts from Princeton University:

  1. Exposure to beam reflections may be just as damaging as exposure to the primary beam.
  2. A surface that would be a diffuse reflector for a visible laser may be a specular reflector for an infrared laser beam, in other words mirror-like surfaces that are not completely flat, such as jewelry or metal tools, may cause less damaging diffuse reflections of a visible laser beam, but act as a damaging flat reflector for an infrared beam, depending on the wavelength of the beam (which BTW goes against "common sense").
  3. The energy of any laser beam can be intensified up to 100,000 times by the focusing action of the eye
  4. Symptoms of a laser burn in the eye include a headache shortly after exposure, excessive watering of the eyes, and sudden appearance of floaters in your vision. Floaters are those swirling distortions that occur randomly in normal vision most often after a blink or when eyes have been closed for a couple of seconds. Floaters are caused by dead cell tissues that detach from the retina and choroid and float in the vitreous humor. Ophthalmologists often dismiss minor laser injuries as floaters due to the very difficult task of detecting minor retinal injuries. Minor corneal burns cause a gritty feeling, like sand in the eye.

Based on what I'm reading now, I would not be surprised to see the PARD and similar products banned in Australia :(

Does the PARD NV008 even have a laser class rating?

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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by ramshackle » 10 Sep 2019, 9:59 am

Ramshackle's Infrared Laser Illuminator Safety Tips

  • Laser IR llluminators are powerful laser sources that can damage eyes permanently in less than a second :shock:
  • Never look into a laser illuminator! Never point it at any other person or domestic animal or livestock!
  • When you have the illuminator turned on make sure your eye is pressed up against the flange of the rubber eyepiece, and keep the other eye closed. What you see in the digital scope cannot harm you. Turn off the illuminator before removing your eye from the eyepiece.
  • Do not use laser illuminators with analogue (glass) scopes! The beam reflections go straight into your eye!
  • Beware of reflections! Think about bystanders! Glass, car mirrors, metal, some plastics and water (even dewdrops) are all potential reflectors. Given the strength of some laser IR illuminators, even diffuse reflections from matte surfaces (white painted surfaces, white paper, etc), if close up, can be damaging. Don't test if your unit is on by holding your hand in front of it, and be aware at all times of where the beam is pointed, making sure it does not aim at nearby objects.
  • Consider using protective eyewear
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by duncan61 » 10 Sep 2019, 10:37 am

With you Stix.The latest scare in Perth is the water flow into the Water corp dams is down 50% Its actually increased a small amount over the last decade.
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by ramshackle » 10 Sep 2019, 11:11 am

Interesting note:

In the UK, Pulsar and Yukon products are distributed exclusively by a company called Thomas Jacks (TJs). TJs won't allow their employees to be in the same room as PARD products. TJs say that this is because the IR lasers in the PARDs are dangerous and they refuse to be in the same room as PARD products because of the potential hazards to their employees from the PARD IR laser. As someone said:

I guess they might don’t want a hassle issuing their employees with white canes after attending Pard demonstrations …


People receiving money or free products from PARD respond by saying:

The truth is that they don't want a head to head with PARD products because they would not fare well in such a competition. PARD come along with products that outperform and are cheaper than their Pulsar/Yukon equivalents and TJs are not happy. They tried to do a similar exclusive distributorship deal with PARD, but that did not come to anything. Because they were losing sales to PARD products they started a "dirty tricks" campaign by threatening to remove advertising from shooting related magazines that published any reviews of PARD products or of guns fitted with PARD scopes. They also refuse to do demonstrations of Pulsar/Yukon products if PARD products are present and have even had people who were supposed to give demonstrations of PARD products "disinvited".


There's probably a bit of truth to each side of the argument. But the bottom line is that people who sell NV equipment consider the PARD stuff dangerous. This does not mean you should not buy a PARD product, or indeed any laser-equipped IR torch (Pard is not the only source of such products), but that you need to be fricking careful if you do!
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by xDom » 10 Sep 2019, 11:18 am

I take it you’re not buying one now, Ram?
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by ramshackle » 10 Sep 2019, 11:22 am

I may buy one. I have no kids at home anymore and I may also buy proper laser safety glasses to go with it (must be made to exclude 850 nm range beams).

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I could perhaps get away without the glasses if I take proper precautions .... :geek:
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by Stix » 10 Sep 2019, 9:11 pm

You wont want them on your face when (& if) out at night sending fragments of copper & lumps of lead out of a steel tube & into the vital organs of beautiful living creatures...

Just dont point the gun at yourself (well at least not while the illuminator is switched on & a round in the chamber) & your eyesight will be fine...

Be sure & trim any nostril hairs though...getting one caught in the bolt race as you chamber a round will be sure to induce sneezing at the most inopportune time...
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by TassieTiger » 10 Sep 2019, 9:25 pm

I'll be glad when someone buys and uses some of this and can comment on it legitimately...Ive been seeing a couple of threads about here lol
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by xDom » 10 Sep 2019, 10:34 pm

I can comment on it. It’s s**t hot and I can still see... missed a couple of easy shots tonight, but that’s a different issue. :D

Ram, you’re reading way too much into this. I will say though.. you’ll be looking slick when you’re popping bunnies with them shades 8-)
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by Stix » 10 Sep 2019, 11:08 pm

Im happy to be a guinea pig...for scientific ressons ofvourse...& for you guys...

Yea...ill take one for the team...

Send me one & ill be sure & give 35 hours of extensive indepth & unbiased testing in the first month...
And...!!...ill continue that testing & reporting for the entire extent of the units useful working life... :D
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by knowsnothin » 10 Sep 2019, 11:37 pm

sharks !
lasers !
...
LASER SHARKS !!!!
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 11 Sep 2019, 7:45 am

No its spider pig

https://giphy.com/gifs/movie-homer-simp ... HUypTIfmFi

Seriously this thread went from seemingly informative to a guy going on a rant about a topic he doesn't have any real world experience with, and just quoting randomly related websites and internet haresay shooting rumors without.

Actually i spoke to the inventor of military NV, according to him the Chinese copied one of their competitors designs design and thus all European companies are dead set against them and creating false rumors... cuz at their price point it will destroy consumer NV market.

Another guy said that the Chinese military is using pard devices.




:sarcasm:
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by bigpete » 11 Sep 2019, 9:06 am

Stix wrote:Im happy to be a guinea pig...for scientific ressons ofvourse...& for you guys...

Yea...ill take one for the team...

Send me one & ill be sure & give 35 hours of extensive indepth & unbiased testing in the first month...
And...!!...ill continue that testing & reporting for the entire extent of the units useful working life... :D


I've heard you love taking one from the team....oops,I mean for the team...
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by bigpete » 11 Sep 2019, 9:07 am

xDom wrote:I can comment on it. It’s s**t hot and I can still see... missed a couple of easy shots tonight, but that’s a different issue. :D

Ram, you’re reading way too much into this. I will say though.. you’ll be looking slick when you’re popping bunnies with them shades 8-)


Yep,mines awesome,and you'd have to be a completed numpty to be looking into the IR torch....
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by bigpete » 11 Sep 2019, 9:13 am

Screenshot_20190911-084212_Gallery.jpg
Anyone else imagine ramshackle looking like this?
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by Member-Deleted » 11 Sep 2019, 9:14 am

Dead right bigpete maybe that's why microwaves have doors cause there is a possibility people will keep sticking their heads into them
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Re: Laser Safety — the dangers of Night Vision shooting

Post by Member-Deleted » 11 Sep 2019, 9:16 am

I'd like to see the farmers reaction if he saw you out hunting in that get up the sight memory would be gold
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