FFP Vs SFP for Target shooting

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FFP Vs SFP for Target shooting

Post by Denno » 03 Dec 2019, 6:07 pm

Hey crew,

What are everyone's thoughts on which is better for Target shooting.
(I do know what the difference is between the two before someone wastes an hour typing up the differences) :lol:

From what I'm reading on the interwebs SFP is better for hunting in the general consensus especially for long distance stuff and FFP is more down the tactical path of doing things for faster target acquisition at different distances etc.

Is that sounding sorta kinda right?? :unknown:

Cheers. Denno
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Re: FFP Vs SFP for Target shooting

Post by bladeracer » 03 Dec 2019, 6:19 pm

Denno wrote:Hey crew,

What are everyone's thoughts on which is better for Target shooting.
(I do know what the difference is between the two before someone wastes an hour typing up the differences) :lol:

From what I'm reading on the interwebs SFP is better for hunting in the general consensus especially for long distance stuff and FFP is more down the tactical path of doing things for faster target acquisition at different distances etc.

Is that sounding sorta kinda right?? :unknown:

Cheers. Denno


SFP.
FFP keeps the reticle a constant size regardless of magnification. You only need the reticle to be constant if you are using it to range targets or for holding-over. In competition you won't be ranging your targets and you certainly won't be holding-over.
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Re: FFP Vs SFP for Target shooting

Post by Ziad » 04 Dec 2019, 6:28 am

I started with FFP, but now all my scopes are SFP. Find them better, fclass and br... use sfp. Only PRS type like FFP....But then I seem then using range finders.
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Re: FFP Vs SFP for Target shooting

Post by Denno » 04 Dec 2019, 8:06 am

Ziad wrote:I started with FFP, but now all my scopes are SFP. Find them better, fclass and br... use sfp. Only PRS type like FFP....But then I seem then using range finders.


This is why I ask mate. I thing MRS looks the most fun of the disciplines.
From my research it seems it’s just a personal choice
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Re: FFP Vs SFP for Target shooting

Post by wannabustbunnies » 05 Dec 2019, 9:09 pm

bladeracer wrote:
SFP.
FFP keeps the reticle a constant size regardless of magnification. You only need the reticle to be constant if you are using it to range targets or for holding-over. In competition you won't be ranging your targets and you certainly won't be holding-over.


SFP the reticle stays a constant size. FFP the reticle increases/decreases in relation to magnification but the subtensions remain the same regardless of magnification.
If you are looking at PRS type target shooting then FFP is the way to go as you will more than likely be holding for both elevation and windage and your holds will be correct on whatever magnification you choose. The target distances are normally known for each stage so you won't be using the reticle to range but you also won't be at max magnification either when you are alternating between targets and doing activities or changing position etc between shots. Most stages are around 10 rounds in 90 seconds to 2 minutes so dialling elevation between targets costs you time also.
F Class or benchrest then SFP is the go.
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Re: FFP Vs SFP for Target shooting

Post by bladeracer » 05 Dec 2019, 9:29 pm

wannabustbunnies wrote:SFP the reticle stays a constant size. FFP the reticle increases/decreases in relation to magnification but the subtensions remain the same regardless of magnification.
If you are looking at PRS type target shooting then FFP is the way to go as you will more than likely be holding for both elevation and windage and your holds will be correct on whatever magnification you choose. The target distances are normally known for each stage so you won't be using the reticle to range but you also won't be at max magnification either when you are alternating between targets and doing activities or changing position etc between shots. Most stages are around 10 rounds in 90 seconds to 2 minutes so dialling elevation between targets costs you time also.
F Class or benchrest then SFP is the go.


In FFP you are magnifying the reticle as well as the field of view as you increase magnification, because the reticle increases size with the magnification, the subtensions also increase thus the math stays the same.

In SFP you are only magnifying the field of view, the reticle stays the same size. Because the reticle does not get magnified, the subtensions are different at different magnifications. In my scopes the holdovers are correct at 18-power, at 9-power the holdovers are twice as much, at 4.5-power they're four times as much. As long as you remain aware of your magnification you can still use the reticle for ranging targets and holding over.
At 18-power the top of my post is 15.4 minutes of holdover, at 9-power it's 30.8 minutes, at 4.5-power it's 61.6 minutes.
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Re: FFP Vs SFP for Target shooting

Post by wannabustbunnies » 06 Dec 2019, 12:06 pm

Personal preference at the end of the day really. I only run FFP scopes now and don't have to worry about what power I am on for holdovers or wind. A 2 mil hold is the same regardless of magnification which makes it easy.
If you can, try both styles and see what fits your purpose the best. Plenty of good scopes out there to choose from
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Re: FFP Vs SFP for Target shooting

Post by bladeracer » 06 Dec 2019, 2:39 pm

wannabustbunnies wrote:Personal preference at the end of the day really. I only run FFP scopes now and don't have to worry about what power I am on for holdovers or wind. A 2 mil hold is the same regardless of magnification which makes it easy.
If you can, try both styles and see what fits your purpose the best. Plenty of good scopes out there to choose from


How often do you find yourself holding off at different magnifications?
Most people tend to use only minimum zoom when walking, and maximum zoom once they've settled in position. Some might also use a mid-range position for optimal exit pupil or clarity.
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Re: FFP Vs SFP for Target shooting

Post by wannabustbunnies » 06 Dec 2019, 4:10 pm

bladeracer wrote:
How often do you find yourself holding off at different magnifications?
Most people tend to use only minimum zoom when walking, and maximum zoom once they've settled in position. Some might also use a mid-range position for optimal exit pupil or clarity.


When shooting PRS style comps I am nearly always holding off on the targets unless it's a fixed distance stage then I dial for that distance. I am at 10-12 X power at our comps for the extra field of view which helps when changing between targets at different distances and/or getting back on target after changing positions.
Walking around chasing rabbits or foxes I run a bit less mag like you mentioned and can increase mag to whatever I want for the shot and depending on the circumstances dial or hold on any mag. Or I just come up .2 or .3 mils from my 100m zero and shoot MPBR style.
Of a night with my add on night vision I use low mag for the FOV as there is some built in magnification to the add on and then the same as above applies.
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Re: FFP Vs SFP for Target shooting

Post by Denno » 07 Dec 2019, 9:35 am

I'm starting to seeing like this....and please correct me if I'm wrong so i can learn from it :D

Simply, the FFP kind of takes out the guess work as the subtensions are correct at any magnification.

In reality, it can be used for any discipline that the SFP can.

It just has the added extra feature of shifting magnification for different ranges should the need arise with less mental "allowances" needed... Perfect for M/PRS you might say as it makes target acquisition quicker, which his why I guess most "tactical" scopes are FFP. (citation needed) :lol:
One might say an FFP is a scope for targets that are moving around... ie. Either shooting from a static position with targets at different distances or even walk-thru ranges.... which ever way ya want to look at it.
Whereas an SFP is a scope best suited to a fixed position and a single known target distance, like a sniper or hunter.

If you look at an FFP with a simple reticle without subtensions, at any given set magnification it is just an SPF with a fatter or thinner reticle. :lol:
With the added bonus of knowing the POI will be correct.

The only downside I can see with using an FFP (for ANY target or silhouette disciplines) is that a very fine reticle is needed so it doesn't block the shooter from seeing a small bullseye at a long distance as was previously stated by someone...
For me that isn't a drama. I used to shoot competition air rifle when I was a young fella and it was literally impossible to see the bullseye as it was a .5mm centre from 10m away with peep sights :lol:



I guess in a nutshell, an FFP can do anything SFP can do and in some circumstances more.... But is a few more $$

That and the old 'personal preferences" are really the only things that come into play.


Cheers and thanks fellas. I have learnt Soo much about scopes since I asked the question... But it's still just the tip of the iceberg.

They are such incredible little, well... machines really...

Kind of like a clock that just doesn't move... and that you can look through :drinks:
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Re: FFP Vs SFP for Target shooting

Post by bladeracer » 07 Dec 2019, 11:28 am

Denno wrote:I'm starting to seeing like this....and please correct me if I'm wrong so i can learn from it :D

Simply, the FFP kind of takes out the guess work as the subtensions are correct at any magnification.

In reality, it can be used for any discipline that the SFP can.

It just has the added extra feature of shifting magnification for different ranges should the need arise with less mental "allowances" needed... Perfect for M/PRS you might say as it makes target acquisition quicker, which his why I guess most "tactical" scopes are FFP. (citation needed) :lol:
One might say an FFP is a scope for targets that are moving around... ie. Either shooting from a static position with targets at different distances or even walk-thru ranges.... which ever way ya want to look at it.
Whereas an SFP is a scope best suited to a fixed position and a single known target distance, like a sniper or hunter.

If you look at an FFP with a simple reticle without subtensions, at any given set magnification it is just an SPF with a fatter or thinner reticle. :lol:
With the added bonus of knowing the POI will be correct.

The only downside I can see with using an FFP (for ANY target or silhouette disciplines) is that a very fine reticle is needed so it doesn't block the shooter from seeing a small bullseye at a long distance as was previously stated by someone...
For me that isn't a drama. I used to shoot competition air rifle when I was a young fella and it was literally impossible to see the bullseye as it was a .5mm centre from 10m away with peep sights :lol:



I guess in a nutshell, an FFP can do anything SFP can do and in some circumstances more.... But is a few more $$

That and the old 'personal preferences" are really the only things that come into play.


Cheers and thanks fellas. I have learnt Soo much about scopes since I asked the question... But it's still just the tip of the iceberg.

They are such incredible little, well... machines really...

Kind of like a clock that just doesn't move... and that you can look through :drinks:


I wouldn't say either one does anything the other can't do, they do the same thing in two different ways is all.

One thing SFP can do that FFP can't is give you variable subtensions, as I explained about the holdovers changing with magnification. My reticle has holdovers out to 15.4MoA (for a theoretical zero at 600yds with a specific .223Rem load) at 18-power. If I'm shooting a load that requires say 31 minutes (heavier bullet, reduced velocity, a blunt hunting bullet, or simply a different cartridge - like .22LR) I can wind the scope back to 9-power, hold on the same "600yd" sub tension, and voila, I have a 31 minute holdover. Printing a dope card of the variations throughout the magnification range is no harder than any other dope card.

You can also range targets the same way, by adjusting the magnification to fit the reticle to the target, read the magnification, and read the dope. For example, you set out 150mm gongs (roughly the size of a non-helmeted head) at random distances. I'm using a 150mm target simply because it fits easily in metric or imperial ranging, 150mm is roughly 6MoA at 100yds and 5MoA at 100m (so I don't need a calculator for this example, I'm doing this on my phone). My scope has holdovers at 1.7, 4.4, 7.6, 11.4, and 15.4 minutes - at 18-power. At full mag, I put my reticle on the first target and it covers about three-quarters of the height to the second (or 4.4MoA) dot, about 3.3MoA, so I already know the 150mm-tall target (5MoA@100m) is around the 150m mark (at 200m the gong is 2.5MoA remember, so at 150m it's 3.33MoA). If I want more precision, I can adjust the magnification to fit one of the marks as neatly over the target as I can. I can't make the reticle "smaller", so I wind the mag back until the 1.7MoA gap "grows" to cover the target, then read the magnification. In this case it's 9-power, making the subtension actually 3.4MoA. So our 5MoA@100m gong is at about 145m. As my scope has 1MoA dots, I can do the same to make a dot fit over the target instead of the gaps between the holdovers.

It sounds complex, and takes a long while to explain what is not very complex, but with practice it becomes second nature, you can roughly estimate the range as soon as you put the reticle over the target, without having to adjust the magnification, regardless of the type of reticle you use. The most rudimentary version of this is learning the fields of view in your scope at various magnifications, mine goes from 63MoA (roughly one degree) at 18-power to 230MoA at 4.5-power. This is one reason all my scopes are identical, including the reticle - I am familiar with how large things should appear in my scope. Calculating it merely gives you a more accurate range estimate, but if you need precision use a laser.

But the primary reason to prefer SFP for precision shooting is the fine reticle, whether you're at 4-power or 24-power. You can see the difference in the picture I posted. You can also see how the holdovers change as magnification does.
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Re: FFP Vs SFP for Target shooting

Post by bladeracer » 07 Dec 2019, 11:33 am

I should add that I prefer a BDC over a straight minute or millirad grid. If I'm looking at a large target or at long range, I get lost trying to count twelve graduations, I find it easier to use the increasingly wider graduations without getting lost
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Re: FFP Vs SFP for Target shooting

Post by Denno » 07 Dec 2019, 1:02 pm

I can understand how and why you would do it that way Bladeracer.
To me it looks complicated and that would allow me to bugger it up easily. I like things a little more simple mate.

As soon as I can I'll be making a dope sheet for a few different brands of ammo, whichever ones the rifle tells me it likes, with elevation adjustment values for different distances like 25, 40, 50, 77, 100, 125, 150 etc.

In theory, and with a good FFP scope, in practice too, I should be able to take it to a comp, shoot a few sighters, look through the scope at any magnification and easily see any adjustment that needs to be made as the subtensions will be 100% relevant to the image. Adjust to suit, then shoot away enjoy the competition.... In a perfect work anyway :lol:

No need for any complicated (to me anyway :roll: ) maths. Let the equipment do the work.
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Re: FFP Vs SFP for Target shooting

Post by bladeracer » 07 Dec 2019, 3:18 pm

The maths is just an example of what can be done, I would expect anybody shooting long range to use a laser, nobody ranges precision shots using a reticle :-)

Have a look through some FFP and SFP scopes when you're at the range.
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Re: FFP Vs SFP for Target shooting

Post by bladeracer » 07 Dec 2019, 3:56 pm

I wouldn't be too concerned about doping different .22LR ammo, just determine the most accurate, and the most accurate for the price. Of the seventy-five-odd types I've tried in my Rugers, the very best is SK High-Velocity, now discontinued, and I only have about 100rds left. Next best are CCI Standard Velocity and Eley Edge on par with each other. If I were going to shoot competition I would probably use the Edge, although I think this is now discounted also, I have maybe 750rds still. Although they shoot very similarly, CCI SV is more likely to throw the rare flier. As it is a third of the cost of Edge though it means I can shoot a couple thousand rounds every month very inexpensively.

When I was a kid I looked at the plethora of .22LR ammo and figured it must be so lacking in versatility that you need to use a different ammo with every shot you take. It never occurred to me that millions and millions of rabbits, foxes, prairie dogs and squirrels have been taken with the cheapest "solid round nose" bullet that people could find, and with rifles most people nowadays would only see fit for the scrap heap.

Presidents have been killed with .22LR, as have thousands of gangbangers. It's all down to shot placement. A subsonic round nose will kill stuff better when placed accurately through the brain, cervical spine, or heart/lungs, than a Stinger will in the nose or guts.

I have many thousands of rounds for testing, and plinking, but for when I'm shooting to benefit my skills, or at live game I use the most accurate round. I have played with high-velocity ammo for knocking silhouettes over and find CCI Velocitor to be the best for me, but well behind the SV in accuracy. I decided I prefer to hit the steel and hope to drop it, than miss it with enough energy to be sure :-) Shooting Silhouette offhand, with open sights is not easy, if I can hold 5MoA groups out to 100m I'm doing okay, when I know the ammo is holding 1MoA on top of that. With most ammo shooting 3MoA+ _from the bench_, any hits would require more luck than skill.

And I use CCI Quiet around the house, but I have a rifle zeroed to 40m just for that ammo.
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Re: FFP Vs SFP for Target shooting

Post by sungazer » 07 Dec 2019, 8:02 pm

The FFP might sound good at first and on paper, but there is a lot the shooter has to know or make correct decisions before it all works. Personally I like the subtensin hash marks that are numbered. This is why.

The first thing that you need to know if you are going to use a hold over for elevations is all the dope data for your load in your head depending on the calibre what graduation distances you need to know.

So you need to know what distance the scope is zeroed for and then the dope data for say 50 yrd intervals. If it was a 22LR you would need to know the data at 10yrd intervals.

Then the next bit of decision you need to make is estimate the distance correctly. The whole point of FFP is to make things quicker so saying you can use the scope to work backward to calculate the distance is silly IMHO.

So from your now estimated distance and the dope data you have in your head you can place the correct hash mark correction on the centre of the target.

The windage is similar you have to look at the conditions and all the indicators that help with estimating the strength. Then you need that dope data in your head to match the hold over correction to the wind streangth and use that hash mark correction to place over the target.

I dont like the dots reticles as they are to big IMO and there is no data between them and often no data on the reticle as to what the spacing's are.
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Re: FFP Vs SFP for Target shooting

Post by bladeracer » 07 Dec 2019, 8:31 pm

sungazer wrote:I dont like the dots reticles as they are to big IMO and there is no data between them and often no data on the reticle as to what the spacing's are.


I don't think I've ever seen a numbered reticle outside of the occasional military ones, like the SVD, but it's not too big a problem to remember five settings, or simply note them on the dope card. If you're going to be using different scopes it would be a lot to remember though.

Keep in mind, for precision shooting (say sub-MoA) you would never holdover, you would dial the scope to the distance so you can hold dead-on to eliminate cant.
I have done experiments at longer ranges using holdovers against dialing the scope in, to see how much the groups are affected by cant, although I'm not sure I've ever published the data anywhere. Even holding over where I can't even see the target in the scope, only the aiming mark up a pole high above the target.
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Re: FFP Vs SFP for Target shooting

Post by sungazer » 07 Dec 2019, 9:11 pm

All my scopes have a level on them. I can look at the level with my left eye just as a quick check and still concentrate on the target in the scope.
This Bushnell G2 reticle in a 4-25 is what I have they are no longer made https://magnumsports.com.au/images/product/g2_2.gif It is now a 4-30 with a g3 reticle https://www.bushnell.com/products/rifle ... 4-5-30x50/
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