Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Rifle scopes, iron sights and optics. Spotting scopes and target acquisition devices.

Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by TassieTiger » 18 May 2020, 7:24 pm

So I ve edited this topic based on the fact, that all the issues I was encountering was attributable to the fore end problems with the MDT chassis.

I’ve just been through a bit of an ordeal and thought I’d ask how others do it - and shine a light on some mistakes I made.

Fitting a new scope to my mdt chassis / howa and I attempted to get the vertical reticle in the scope aligned with a window frame which should be vertical.

So even using a rest, I simply could not get the chassis vertical and zero’d when compared to scope mounts - I put meter onto mounts and it would be zero, then onto chassis and it would be 2.5 + degrees out...so there was no way I could get reticle aligned.
So a closer inspection and more measurements show me that the chassis fore end is not aligned with the barrel by a fair margin and is actually twisted (see pics) It appears as if the MDT chassis is not as precision as they reckon - in fact, I think I might shoot the retailer an email see what they say.
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Last edited by TassieTiger on 19 May 2020, 7:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - zero cant?

Post by Blr243 » 18 May 2020, 7:44 pm

I get very comfortable hanging onto the rifle how I would normally shoot it and then I twist the reticle so that it’s aligned with a known plumb item out yonder. I’m guessing that my most comfortable shooting position may not necessarily be holding the action plumb and I’m ok with that ......when I’m wiggling into position on the range I don’t want to be twisting around uncomfortably just to ensure my reticle is plumb. No idea if this idea / technique of mine is professional or not
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - zero cant? MDT chassis ISS

Post by GQshayne » 18 May 2020, 9:01 pm

I use the action or rail/base as the point for a small spirit level, and then another on the scope turret.
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - zero cant? MDT chassis ISS

Post by TassieTiger » 18 May 2020, 9:07 pm

I send MDT an email with pics and their answer was not exactly confidence inspiring...here is their response in entirety;

Anthony Xxxx (MDT)
May 18, 2020,
“Alright, on the Howa 1500 this can come up from time to time. It won't have any effect on performance but you can try and push it into the center a little bit by loosening off the action screws and pushing it to the opposite side and then retightening them down.
Regards

Anthony Xxxxx”
Customer Support

Obviously, I tried this and anyone who has put together one of these chassis kits will know that the holes that are cut for the action screws do not allow for any movement, so pushing it to the side with a screw loose, does sweet bugger all. Even if you could gain a mm, it would then be under tension and recoil would eventually move it.
I guess I could take it to a smith and have the locking lugs straightened (See pic with fore end removed)...so much for a precision chassis though.
I’ll await their further response.
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Last edited by TassieTiger on 19 May 2020, 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - zero cant? MDT chassis ISS

Post by bladeracer » 18 May 2020, 11:22 pm

I use a steel rule between the top of the rail and the bottom of the turret block, but that only works with scopes that have a flat on the bottom. Twist the rule so one edge lies against the flat rail, then turn the scope so its flat lies against the rule as well.

Otherwise, I just plumb the reticle by eye so it's vertical while I'm holding the rifle in shooting position.
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by tophet1 » 19 May 2020, 7:21 am

Short version: If your scope reticle is in line (vertically) with the bore of the barrel your good. The only issue is if the
'twisted' chassis is putting pressure on the action or barrel. Get your action level and align the scope to it.
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by TassieTiger » 19 May 2020, 7:24 am

Very true Trophet.
It’s also quite visually off putting, as you see the barrel pointing in one direction but the chassis in another.
Hope MDT come back with a better response than above...
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by TassieTiger » 19 May 2020, 7:41 am

So another very poor response from MDT...

“The issue is the recoil lug on the Howa 1500 is not perfectly parrel and when pushed into the chassis this issue shows up. I'm not sure that there is enough material there to accommodate that (removal of metal) on the lug (to get it straight). You can have a smith try to but, you will need to bed it after.
Regards MDT.”

So the problem with this is numerous...
The original houge stock saw the rifle sitting dead straight so it’s not likely to be the recoil lug and I’ve offered to refit the action to the houge to prove it...
No one buys a $1400 chassis kit to have to get it bedded and if this issue shows up from time to time - maybe a warning or advice might be in order?

I was warned about buying a mdt - being they can apparently be hit and miss...I should have listened but the ESS looks got me in...that being said, I’d prefer function over form any day.
Last edited by TassieTiger on 19 May 2020, 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by duddley75 » 19 May 2020, 7:47 am

I can't offer any advice for your situation, but this is a real concern for me as well, as my first purchase is going to be a Howa 1500 in the MDT ESS chassis being bought as is. (As in it already comes in the chassis). - Not sure if it comes from Howa that way.

I will speak to my local retailer who was going to source it.
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by TassieTiger » 19 May 2020, 8:05 am

Dudley, I’d hope that they would not attempt to retail a rifle with so much twist in the chassis.

MDT think it’s a howa / houge issue - I think it’s a misalignment of action mounting holes in the mdt chassis ...if they are off even .5mm Between the mounting holes at the action, by the time you take that misalignment 18 inches, you’d be 5-8mm out which is what I’m seeing. My concern is that it’s not only a horizontal misalignment...
Hopefully I can work something out with MDT.
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 19 May 2020, 8:22 am

Why would you put a $1500 chassis on a $399 rifle.

Joking.

But i know even the first gen rpr had that issue there. Do as per their instructions mate there should be 1-3 screws that can adjust the forend.
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by TassieTiger » 19 May 2020, 8:28 am

The fore end locks onto the shown lugs In the pic - the screws only secure it “firmer” onto the lugs. The lugs are not sitting equal...
There is no adjustment to speak of.

Update - so MDT are looking to resolve which is good news, despite them still believing it’s the recoil lug. But, they are willing to send me a new chassis to confirm either way which helps elevate my confidence in their support.
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by Rwd22 » 19 May 2020, 8:52 am

I found similar when setting up my ESS, but given the forend isn't critical, I disregarded it. I ran a digi level box off my pic rail and referenced it off the rear part of the chassis (Just in front of where the butt stock bolts up) Found the chassis at that point to be true to my pic rail, so used that point to set-up the scope, from memory the forend was canted about 0.5 degrees in comparison to the pic rail and receiver part of the chassis.

I think my forened may be ever so slightly horizontally off center to the barrel bore, but it wasn't enough to worry about, I could've stripped everything back and re-checked but as long as the barrel and action are true to my scope, that's all that matters. Hope you get it all sorted mate. I found MDT's service to be exceptional when quizzing them about another few items.
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by TassieTiger » 19 May 2020, 9:00 am

Rwd22 wrote:I found similar when setting up my ESS, but given the forend isn't critical, I disregarded it. I ran a digi level box off my pic rail and referenced it off the rear part of the chassis (Just in front of where the butt stock bolts up) Found the chassis at that point to be true to my pic rail, so used that point to set-up the scope, from memory the forend was canted about 0.5 degrees in comparison to the pic rail and receiver part of the chassis.

I think my forened may be ever so slightly horizontally off center to the barrel bore, but it wasn't enough to worry about, I could've stripped everything back and re-checked but as long as the barrel and action are true to my scope, that's all that matters. Hope you get it all sorted mate. I found MDT's service to be exceptional when quizzing them about another few items.


I knew it wouldn’t be perfect - given the logistics of bulk builds Across various manufacturers, but this is a fair way off...more than I’ve seen any other chassis based rifle.

I think there’s been a mis understanding between myself and MDT to start with as I was concerned that an action could sit true in the hogue but be so far out in mdt, but regardless Of that initial hurdle - they are very much supporting a resolution now and that’s all one can ask for.
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by Larry » 19 May 2020, 10:36 am

I hang a rope from a tree with a brick on the end of it as far away as I can. I put a spirit level on the pic rail and make sure that the rail is absolutely level. Then with the scope rings slightly loose turn the scope so that the recital is vertical with the rope. Do this several times to make sure the gun remained level while moving the scope and tightening the rings back up. Where the barrel points inside the shroud is only cosmetic.

However the recoil lug must fit squarely in the recess of the stock, and of course be square to the barrel. If not s**t will happen when it recoils.
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by pomemax » 19 May 2020, 10:44 am

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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by TassieTiger » 19 May 2020, 10:48 am

This is what use and it works very well normally -

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Magnetic-0- ... SwlHJdNszR
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by Larry » 19 May 2020, 12:40 pm

On;y problems with levels believe it or not is that they are like all measuring devices and not all made the same when it comes to accuracy. The tube has to be perfectly round and have flat inner walls. Ob the good levels you will see that they are graded.
A rope at the furthest distance you can possible use is the most accurate way of at least getting the reticle vertical. Getting the gun in line with it underneath is the hardest part.
As far as what impact it has on your shot placement is more pronounced at long ranges as you wind up the turrets. If the scope retical is not vertical with the gun when you wind up you are actually changing the windage or the horizontal component as well as the vertical. At short ranges the effect is much less. Just like 1 MOA at 100 yards is one inch but 1 MOA at 1000 yards is 10 inches. As for most calibres zeroed at 100 yrds it takes 30 MOA scope adjustment to get out to 1000 yards. Every fraction of a minute out in vertical is multiplied by 30 when you get out to 1000 yards.
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by TassieTiger » 19 May 2020, 1:23 pm

And bi pod legs are not necessarily going to have your rifle sitting true either...
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by rookie » 27 May 2020, 10:08 pm

Good luck with it TassieTiger - I like the look of the ESS too and bit of a shock to see u having an issue considering it’s supposed to be their premium chassis. It’s something I want to get sometime down the track so hope they sort it for u.

Curious, are you dealing with MDT in Canada for support? Or do they have a local/regional office closer to us? Do u think there’d be any issue getting their replacement part shipped in? (Ie. customs / border force)

Also did u buy the chassis new from a shop here?
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by TassieTiger » 28 May 2020, 1:26 pm

I bought from QLD but replacement is coming from Canada...
Yeah it is a bit disappointing, a premium chassis should be spot in - especially given the $$$ but they ve been good to deal with and it must be remembered that the problem I’ve encountered does not necessarily impact the operation. But it is off putting seeing the barrel / chassis on an angle...
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by Larry » 28 May 2020, 8:28 pm

TassieTiger wrote:And bi pod legs are not necessarily going to have your rifle sitting true either...


Thats why you should always get a bipod that allows for cant. If your rifle is not level any adjustments made on the turrets are going to be in the wrong direction in respect to Vertical and Horizontal displacement.
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by TassieTiger » 28 May 2020, 8:40 pm

Absolutely Larry - I took it for granted that my bipod legs would be exactly the same - but nope. A couple mm out transferred to the rifle a few degrees off centre....and even “some” levels with bubbles, I’ve seen ppl get the bubble within the lines and say she’ll be right. But if your not absolutely centring that bubble, at distance, that .5 degree That you might be out - will come in to play...
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by Larry » 28 May 2020, 9:28 pm

I started with a Harris or knock off without notches and it could be a pain to get the legs to adjust to the right length. then i bought one with the notches and realised that it was a problem when not shooting on flat land. which I often do shooting of a side of a hill or any old ground. I think the non notched legs are probably more versatile. But i have more with notched legs. I bought 6, 9 and 12 inch versions off X hunter on ebay. again matching the bipod to the terrain you are shooting can be essential. If you are shooting on a down sloping hill you really need a bipod with long legs to get the rifle back to horizontal if the game is on the other side of a valley.

I could not find any difference in quality or materials between the $35 ebay jobs and the nearly $200 original Harris bi pods i bought,

Sorry off topic but it may help someone when contemplating what to look for in a bi pod.
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by TassieTiger » 28 May 2020, 10:20 pm

My notches on my Harris are out by between 2-5 mm.

I bought a cheap eBay unit that does allow cant, twist, and vertical - but that means it’s 100% reliant on the shooter to hold his rifle 100% vertical and I don’t many do...

It’s not something I’ve worried too much about but as I stretch further and further out with target shooting, it becomes more and more important. Tiny parts of degrees off vertical, ends up being inches at 600m plus...
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by Rwd22 » 29 May 2020, 9:37 am

Accurate bipod legs or not, wouldn't it just validate having a good anti-cant device? Rather than being concerned about your bipod being dead flat on different terrains or tables. One of my harris clones is so far out, an extra notch higher on the right hand leg is required to get it close to level, haha.

Interested to see how your replacement chassis goes Tassie and whether you encounter the same problem again, the ESS is touted as one of their premium chassis, but at the end of the day we're still only talking about about an off the shelf, bolt together set-up, that really isn't that expensive for the manufacturing that goes into it.

Having a look at some of the Masterpiece Arms chassis and GCPD Arms chassis quickly validates how reasonably priced the MDT stuff is.

I'm hoping to be setting up another ESS shortly, just waiting on the barrelled action to show up. I wanted to go FDE this time around, but sounds like they only have Black in the Howa long action at the moment.
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by rookie » 29 May 2020, 1:11 pm

TassieTiger wrote:it is off putting seeing the barrel / chassis on an angle...

Definitely chase it up :thumbsup: ... its not like it’s a $99 hogue stock .. you put good money down for it

Larry wrote:I started with a Harris or knock off .. [snip] .. I bought 6, 9 and 12 inch versions off X hunter on ebay. .. [snip] .. I could not find any difference in quality or materials between the $35 ebay jobs and the nearly $200 original Harris bi pods i bought,

Sorry off topic but it may help someone when contemplating what to look for in a bi pod.

thanks for this Larry, I always wondered if these copies are any good ... might get one to try out ... thanks for naming the eBay shop (I have bought from there in the past also)
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by bcr83 » 05 Jun 2020, 7:55 am

In terms of fitment and alignment in still waiting on my ota to come through but my brother test fitted in his Howa 1500 and it came out perfect, very nice to hold.

Only thing I noticed is the poly mag has about 5mm vertical play in the mag well. Not sure how this will affect feeding.
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by Rwd22 » 05 Jun 2020, 8:58 am

Are you able to pull the magazine out of the mag well without using the release latch? I run the full metal mags with my Howa and needed to trim the front edge of the mag for it to seat properly, it would insert into the mag well but I was able to pull it out without using the latch. I think the Poly/Metal mags are advertised as being suitable for the Howa action, but the others required modification from memory. Took me about 5 minutes with the metal mags, so if you needed to, it would be short work with the poly mags.
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Re: Setting up new scopes level - MDT chassis ISSUE?

Post by brett1868 » 05 Jun 2020, 9:53 am

I know a "little" about levelling scopes....I use a Bosch Quigo laser level which projects both a vertical and horizontal line. I clamp a 4' spirit level to the rail on the rifle and clamp the rifle into my rest. I then adjust the rest so the bubble is perfectly level then mount the scope while checking alignment on the laser which is projected onto my neighbors garage door across the street. Might sound like a bit of effort but it's a once off process for each rifle. Also to start another debate, I lap the rings and use a drop of epoxy to secure the scope.
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