No windage adjustment left left :-(

[Paul]

Ive just swapped a scope over to an old Savage Model 65 .22 Mag. The scope (Niko Stirling 8x56 - a little bit overkill for the magnum, but its what I've got) and ring set have been mounted on different rifles previously and worked fine and accurate. The rifle's previous scope also shot accurate, (but it wasn't helping me see clearly at 100m, gotten old since I first bought it ).

So the problem is that I mounted it, bore sighted and its still shooting off right by about 4" at 25m range, even with the windage maxed out. Ive tried swapping the rings front to back and still not enough change - well none really. The rings have the tightening screws on the left non-bolt side, do I need to reverse this (though then I'm thinking its a bit untidy and the tightening screws may get in the way of the bolt lift).

I'm wondering what I can do to get it on target? Is there something wrong with the rings? Or the dovetail on the rifle? Do I need to shim it out somehow?

Its an old rifle, but nice and light and fun to shoot so I'm keen to get it on target.

Hoping for some simple helpful advice and solutions

Paul

[bladeracer]

Assuming the scope has 40-minutes of adjustment each side of center (it may not), and that it was roughly centered when you mounted it, you have adjusted it the full travel and are still 14MoA short - was it aiming about 50+MoA (say 400mm at 25m) to the right when you when you boresighted it?

Are you sure you are adjusting the turret in the right direction? Maybe it only has about 15MoA of adjustment and you've gone the wrong direction?

[straightshooter]

If things were OK in prior scope setups then the thing to consider is what exactly have you done in the process of fitting the scope.
Are the ring correctly fitted to the dovetails?
Is there some possible defect in the rings such as a mismatch in height or a bent scope tube?
If you put a steel straight edge on the scope mounting surface of the ring bottom halves when attached to the receiver what do you see?
Was the scope reticle in the center of it's windage and elevation ranges prior to boresighting?

[SCJ429]

Burris make a Signiture ring which has a plastic insert where you can can't the scope for elevation or windage. You could use this principle to use a shim in the front and rear. If the rifle is shooting right then place the shim in the rhs at the front ring and in the lhs in the rear ring.

Before doing this I would lap the rings to see how out of alignment they are. You don't want to crush your scope tube.

[Stix]

Have you got the shims on the right sides there scj...?
Or am i looking through the wrong end...?

[TassieTiger]

Those shins that come with the Burris signature rings don’t - in my opinion - seem to be solid enough. Not sure what they are made of but there’s a sponginess to them that I don’t like.

Can you swap around front ring to rear to ensure it’s not ring alignment - or even flip one ring around to rule out the ring machining as the issue?

[Stix]

Isnt that just due to the gap/slit in them Tassie--so they have that feel about them...but when they are tensioned up they really wrap around the scope...?

Im not sure, just asking...

[TassieTiger]

Yeah they do Stix, the skit makes them pliable but it’s the product material...like a more firm poly foam that covers water pipes...I’m sure it holds firm when tensioned - I’m sure they tested crap out of them, but that kind of polymer seems to go hard over time and - I don’t know - I just didn’t feel right using it.

[Paul]

Assuming the scope has 40-minutes of adjustment each side of center (it may not), and that it was roughly centered when you mounted it, you have adjusted it the full travel and are still 14MoA short - was it aiming about 50+MoA (say 400mm at 25m) to the right when you when you boresighted it?

Are you sure you are adjusting the turret in the right direction? Maybe it only has about 15MoA of adjustment and you've gone the wrong direction?

Thanks BR,
On first bore sighting @25m with the barrel sighted a spot, the scope reticle showed it was sighted about 300mm to the left @25m, or to flip that over to 'how far right would it have been' if it was to have fired then, it would have hit 300mm to the right of POI. Make sense? I don't think the scope has 40 MOA adjustment, maybe a little less. Having said that, its not been an issue before on two other rifles (22-250 & 22LR) which shot 1-1.5 MOA.

I adjusted the turret as much as possible and it brought the POI to be around 100-130mm to the right. Hence needing more left adjustment. This also confirms Ive been turning the turret in the correct direction, but I know what you mean as in bore sighting, the direction to turn is counter to what one normally does when just adjusting POI.

Paul

[Paul]

If things were OK in prior scope setups then the thing to consider is what exactly have you done in the process of fitting the scope.

Are the ring correctly fitted to the dovetails?

Answer - I did some checking on this and they seemed to be at the time. I also did the same when I swapped the rings Fr 2 Bk etc.

Is there some possible defect in the rings such as a mismatch in height or a bent scope tube?


Answer - If the tube was bent I'd have expected it to be dodgy on the previous rifle it was on (22/250). Like wise with the rings on a previous rifle, where they seemed to work fine.

If you put a steel straight edge on the scope mounting surface of the ring bottom halves when attached to the receiver what do you see?

Answer - will check this out. Great tip .


Was the scope reticle in the center of it's windage and elevation ranges prior to boresighting?

Answer - Yes. It has a total of 10 complete turns, and I set it at 5 prior to fitting.

[deanp100]

I’d start by taking it all off and starting again. Put the scope on a mirror and make sure the reticle is basically centred and re-assemble carefully , Checking the alignments as you go,. Or get a cheap set of adjustable mounts. Or shim it left or right. The old Nikko is a solid old scope. You won’t hurt it in a hurry.

[Stix]

Yes id do what deano says...

While youre tightening up the rings to the dovetail, give them a kind of twisting wobble with some downward pressure to make sure you can feel them seat properly against the dovetail & they arent on an angle.

Are the rings for the right sized dovetail, & cut to the right angle...?

Once the rings are on, check the alignment with the straight edge if you can...its not as accurate but could give you an idea if its the rings or dovetail.
If you have 2 pieces of one inch tube, sit a piece of tube in each ring & see if they precisely line up to each other.

[bladeracer]

Assuming the scope has 40-minutes of adjustment each side of center (it may not), and that it was roughly centered when you mounted it, you have adjusted it the full travel and are still 14MoA short - was it aiming about 50+MoA (say 400mm at 25m) to the right when you when you boresighted it?

Are you sure you are adjusting the turret in the right direction? Maybe it only has about 15MoA of adjustment and you've gone the wrong direction?

Thanks BR,
On first bore sighting @25m with the barrel sighted a spot, the scope reticle showed it was sighted about 300mm to the left @25m, or to flip that over to 'how far right would it have been' if it was to have fired then, it would have hit 300mm to the right of POI. Make sense? I don't think the scope has 40 MOA adjustment, maybe a little less. Having said that, its not been an issue before on two other rifles (22-250 & 22LR) which shot 1-1.5 MOA.

I adjusted the turret as much as possible and it brought the POI to be around 100-130mm to the right. Hence needing more left adjustment. This also confirms Ive been turning the turret in the correct direction, but I know what you mean as in bore sighting, the direction to turn is counter to what one normally does when just adjusting POI.

Paul

I looked at the website but can't see any 8x56 scopes and Google doesn't give me any idea of adjustment limits.
http://www.nikkostirling.com/content/riflescopes.html

Did you lift it off one rifle and straight onto this one or did you mount the rings on the rifle first, then lay the scope into them?
I had a similar problem with a 3-9x40 Redfield scope so I mounted it upside down and on its side to see if the problem was in the scope or the mounts - turned out the scope was faulty. You could try that.

Ten full turns got you roughly 270mm of movement at 25m, that's roughly 37-minutes which is reasonable. But ten turns is massive, most scopes have sixty clicks per turn, giving 15MoA with .25MoA clicks (2.5 turns) or 7.5MoA with .125MoA clicks. Can you find your scope online so I can look for the manual?

I use a one-piece adjustable mount to get my .22's out to long ranges, one of those will allow you to centre the reticle in the scope, then adjust the mount to zero it instead of adjusting the scope.

[SCJ429]

Burris Signiture rings are very strong and are well regarded. The plastic inserts cannot be deformed by the pressure of tightening the rings and they are very kind to your scope tube. I would have no hesitation in using them on any of my scopes.

If I was the OP I would use some strips of plastic or an aluminium can to make some inserts. I might have the shims in the wrong order as Stix pointed out but it would be apparent as soon as you mount the scope. Just pull them out and put them in the other side.

[deanp100]

The 8x56 Nikkos were around in the 70-80’s. They made a 4-12, an 8 and a 10 x56. Marketed as a fox hunter scope. The old ad had a fox picture on it. Regardless of what people say about new nikkos , the old ones were jap made and were really good basic scopes.

[bladeracer]

The 8x56 Nikkos were around in the 70-80’s. They made a 4-12, an 8 and a 10 x56. Marketed as a fox hunter scope. The old ad had a fox picture on it. Regardless of what people say about new nikkos , the old ones were jap made and were really good basic scopes.

No argument from me, I have really nice old Japanese 4-power Nikko Stirling Silver and Gold Crown scopes.

[TassieTiger]

Burris Signiture rings are very strong and are well regarded. The plastic inserts cannot be deformed by the pressure of tightening the rings and they are very kind to your scope tube. I would have no hesitation in using them on any of my scopes.

If I was the OP I would use some strips of plastic or an aluminium can to make some inserts. I might have the shims in the wrong order as Stix pointed out but it would be apparent as soon as you mount the scope. Just pull them out and put them in the other side.

The plastic inserts are conical and ramped depending on elevation needed - I don’t see how the plastic inserts cannot be uniformly compressed to ensure exact concentricity, the signature rings have 6 tension screws per ring, so that's 12 points of potential different pressure - that can then fluctuate... As I said, smarter people than me have no doubt tested the crap out of those inserts, but to me, I’ll just fix a moa rail thanks.

[bladeracer]

Burris Signiture rings are very strong and are well regarded. The plastic inserts cannot be deformed by the pressure of tightening the rings and they are very kind to your scope tube. I would have no hesitation in using them on any of my scopes.

If I was the OP I would use some strips of plastic or an aluminium can to make some inserts. I might have the shims in the wrong order as Stix pointed out but it would be apparent as soon as you mount the scope. Just pull them out and put them in the other side.

The plastic inserts are conical and ramped depending on elevation needed - I don’t see how the plastic inserts cannot be uniformly compressed to ensure exact concentricity, the signature rings have 6 tension screws per ring, so that's 12 points of potential different pressure - that can then fluctuate... As I said, smarter people than me have no doubt tested the crap out of those inserts, but to me, I’ll just fix a moa rail thanks.

Their purpose is not to replace a canted rail, they allow you to zero the scope where you want it while maintaining the full range of internal adjustment.

[TassieTiger]

The signature series set I had - have 5 sets of these poly inserts, they ranged from 5 to 40 moa of cant.

Regardless - my personal, Likely unwarranted issue, is with the synthetic, permeable material...

[grumpy308]

Hi Paul. I'm not certain of the type of barrel fitment on a Savage 65 but have over the years have seen some pinned type barrels not all that straight and true to the receiver. Take the rings off the action and fit a metre rule into the dovetail slot and run it up to the muzzle. Check where it lines up in relation to the barrel. Do this on both sides of the dovetail to check if the barrel is in line with the action / dovetails. If that looks ok fit both lower ring halves to the dovetails and sit a piece of pipe / tube / broomhandle or similar into the rings and see if that lines up with the barrel. By doing both of these checks you should be able to work out what is causing the alignment issue. If all that looks good have a close look at the muzzle to make sure the bore appears to be in the centre of the barrel. If you can't find any fault it could be the scope. Try to centre the scope reticule by putting it in some V blocks (or securing your rifle in a vice and sitting the scope in the lower rings) and play with the windage and elevation adjustments until you can spin the scope around and the crosshair stays aimed at the same spot. This will make sure that your initial bore sighting will take place with a centred scope and get rid of the possibility of a sticky erector tube in you scope causing problems. By doing these checks it should become obvious what is causing the problem with being unable to sight it in properly. Regards Malcolm.

[SCJ429]

The inserts may be used to cant the scope up and down but also left to right. You should zero the internal adjustment and then rotate the inserts until the reticle is centred.

Plastic inserts also resist deformation when supported across its surface. A good example of this is plastic hub spacers on a car. If your wheels have a hub locator bore which is bigger than your hub, the weight of the car is carried on your wheel studs and they will eventually fail if subjected to high loads. A plastic hub spacer is used to fill the gap and transfer the load to the hub. This plastic spacer carries considerably more load than the Burris inserts on scope rings without deforming.

Not trying to talk you into using them Tassie, just explaining how they are designed to work.

[Paul]

Hi Paul. I'm not certain of the type of barrel fitment on a Savage 65 but have over the years have seen some pinned type barrels not all that straight and true to the receiver. Take the rings off the action and fit a metre rule into the dovetail slot and run it up to the muzzle. Check where it lines up in relation to the barrel. Do this on both sides of the dovetail to check if the barrel is in line with the action / dovetails. If that looks ok fit both lower ring halves to the dovetails and sit a piece of pipe / tube / broomhandle or similar into the rings and see if that lines up with the barrel. By doing both of these checks you should be able to work out what is causing the alignment issue. If all that looks good have a close look at the muzzle to make sure the bore appears to be in the centre of the barrel. If you can't find any fault it could be the scope. Try to centre the scope reticule by putting it in some V blocks (or securing your rifle in a vice and sitting the scope in the lower rings) and play with the windage and elevation adjustments until you can spin the scope around and the crosshair stays aimed at the same spot. This will make sure that your initial bore sighting will take place with a centred scope and get rid of the possibility of a sticky erector tube in you scope causing problems. By doing these checks it should become obvious what is causing the problem with being unable to sight it in properly. Regards Malcolm.

Thanks Malcolm, I'll use those tips to check it out more thoroughly.

Regards, Paul

[bladeracer]

Thanks Malcolm, I'll use those tips to check it out more thoroughly.

Regards, Paul

It certainly could just be a bent barrel.
Does it have iron sights?