Thermal, again.

[Shootermick]

Narrowed down my choices for a new thermal.
Infiray Rico RL42, $4400.
Hikmicro Panther PH50L $5000.
Both 384 sensor.
Both base mag of 4.
Hikmicro comes with a built in range finder. Iray can have one clipped on the side for an extra $700.
The Hik sits slightly higher than the Iray, but either choice may require a cheek riser anyway.
Any feedback on these two particular units?

[stihl88]

LRF probably isn't hugely important if you're shooting similar distances overall, but keep in mind once night sets in it's difficult to judge depth perception (now that we're not using a traditional spotlight) so LRF can help. I settled on the PARD SA32/35 due to it's inbuilt ballistic hold over function. Time will tell if it was a wise purchase or not.

It may/may not suite your needs but keep in mind IR scopes have come a long way, Pard also do a ripper IR scope for around $1500 which has the built in LRF and Ballistic Calculator and is perfect for popping small stuff inside 100m and larger stuff beyond. There's only two other brands i know of that has the built in LRF with Ballistic Calc = Conotech Polaris (heavy) and the US Military recently acquired "Vortex XM-157" this is basically AIMBOT witchcraft technology at play here. https://youtu.be/f5YWXrZdNpA?t=597 it won't calculate windage so if you're going to play Carlos Hathcock you'll still need a spotter!

Yep, 384 Sensor is just fine.

Most of the 384 sensors have the same pixel pitch as their 640 counterparts anyway. Here's a great explanation on this here https://owloptics.nz/pages/thermal-640-cores-are-they-worth-it

If you can get 12um pixel pitch, 25mk (less is best) and 50Hz refresh then that's going to give you great image quality in a 384 chip. If you can get the same in a 640 chip then you will have greater FOV but typically a lower base mag meaning when you zoom to the level of the 384 chip base mag you end up seeing similar quality as the 640 as you're essentially seeing the same 12um pixel pitch.

My advise on a Thermal is that if you're tossing a few up in the air and just before you pull the trigger on one...stop...do some MORE research until you are 100% happy with what you're getting and have ruled out all other brands and models. You want to future proof your purchase as much as possible.

[scoot]

Everyone will tell you their particular combo is best. Both because of either lack of experience with others and it's hard to admit faults to yourself after dropping big cash. Any unit will seem like the greatest witchcraft ever if it's your first experience.
You need to focus on use. Base mag is one of the most important considerations as that's when you get the best image. Any product will start pixellating under zoom. This will narrow the choices down to where you can decide on features.
Personally I think the "image" between models you have been looking at are much of a muchness. They will be different but what one person thinks is a "better" image might be the complete opposite of what someone else likes.
I wouldn't get hung up on refresh rates and millikelvins and mega-terra-pixel-blah blah.
Shutterless calibration is very nice so you don't get picture freezes at the wrong times.
Consider battery styles and life, warranty and support, actual use/functionality ie: menu and button setups.
There's a lot to consider but if you break it down step by step you'll find your choice is easier to make.

[scoot]

P.S. you'll likely need a cheek riser regardless of which unit you buy.

[stihl88]

Everyone will tell you their particular combo is best. Both because of either lack of experience with others and it's hard to admit faults to yourself after dropping big cash. Any unit will seem like the greatest witchcraft ever if it's your first experience.
You need to focus on use. Base mag is one of the most important considerations as that's when you get the best image. Any product will start pixellating under zoom. This will narrow the choices down to where you can decide on features.
Personally I think the "image" between models you have been looking at are much of a muchness. They will be different but what one person thinks is a "better" image might be the complete opposite of what someone else likes.
I wouldn't get hung up on refresh rates and millikelvins and mega-terra-pixel-blah blah.
Shutterless calibration is very nice so you don't get picture freezes at the wrong times.
Consider battery styles and life, warranty and support, actual use/functionality ie: menu and button setups.
There's a lot to consider but if you break it down step by step you'll find your choice is easier to make.

Unfortunately with Thermals the "blah-blahs" significantly matter, it's one of the things the manufacturers are advancing almost monthly now and is a big part of where it's at with the advancement in this field...

Yes you technically can look through one, mount it and be happy but it pays to do some research otherwise you'll find you've mounted a 3 year old outdated unit which for perhaps only a few hundred more you could have mounted a much more advanced unit.

I suppose you can easily buy a car without knowing exactly what's under the hood (my wife) but when I'm picking a car I want to know all the specs, possibly more important when dealing with Thermals as it could mean the difference in successful target id vs none.

What I've provided above is advice for consideration, I'd never steer anyone one way or the other but if i had to pick between the two presented i'd probably choose the HikMicro. And that witchcraft is truly witchcraft and something you'll find all the manufacturers building into their devices next, guaranteed as they already have the LRF and computers onboard it's just a little onboard software change that will see it through...

[scoot]

I agree partly but ........ I have 2x units. The older one is not as good on "paper" as my newer unit but is embarrassingly better. It is a far more expensive unit though. At a price point most units these days are very similar spec and I'd challenge any newly to pick weather it's 12 or 17 micron and 40 or 50 refresh rate for example.

[Shootermick]

Well I ended up buying the Hikmicro Panther. Been playing around with it tonight. Hopefully I might get it set up over the weekend.
More importantly I hope I’ve made a decent choice!

[scoot]

Enjoy your new toy. I think you'll be happy.

[Billo]

Hey well done Shootermick keen to see some feedback

I spent yesterday morning using a Pulsar LRF XP50 Binoculars a mate lent me, unfortunately the wind picked up to 45 kmh but I ended up do twice the scouting I would normally do, checking out every pig holding pocket and gully.

I reckon a compact thermal on my Howa Supalite will be the direction I head.

[niteowl]

Everyone will tell you their particular combo is best. Both because of either lack of experience with others and it's hard to admit faults to yourself after dropping big cash. Any unit will seem like the greatest witchcraft ever if it's your first experience.
You need to focus on use. Base mag is one of the most important considerations as that's when you get the best image. Any product will start pixellating under zoom. This will narrow the choices down to where you can decide on features.
Personally I think the "image" between models you have been looking at are much of a muchness. They will be different but what one person thinks is a "better" image might be the complete opposite of what someone else likes.
I wouldn't get hung up on refresh rates and millikelvins and mega-terra-pixel-blah blah.
Shutterless calibration is very nice so you don't get picture freezes at the wrong times.
Consider battery styles and life, warranty and support, actual use/functionality ie: menu and button setups.
There's a lot to consider but if you break it down step by step you'll find your choice is easier to make.

Unfortunately with Thermals the "blah-blahs" significantly matter, it's one of the things the manufacturers are advancing almost monthly now and is a big part of where it's at with the advancement in this field...

Yes you technically can look through one, mount it and be happy but it pays to do some research otherwise you'll find you've mounted a 3 year old outdated unit which for perhaps only a few hundred more you could have mounted a much more advanced unit.

I suppose you can easily buy a car without knowing exactly what's under the hood (my wife) but when I'm picking a car I want to know all the specs, possibly more important when dealing with Thermals as it could mean the difference in successful target id vs none.

What I've provided above is advice for consideration, I'd never steer anyone one way or the other but if i had to pick between the two presented i'd probably choose the HikMicro. And that witchcraft is truly witchcraft and something you'll find all the manufacturers building into their devices next, guaranteed as they already have the LRF and computers onboard it's just a little onboard software change that will see it through...

A lot of the "blah-blahs" do NOT matter, as some, such as the very low FPA sensitivity figures are BS. Even the companies that manufacture them will tell you that. The great low figures can be obtained by testing at non industry standards !!
12 micron pixels do not give you a better overall image than 17 microns regardless of what some seem to think. You need to actually know how it all works. Smaller FPA size, regardless of pixel size will give greater optical magnification with any given focal length lens. You are still better off with a larger pixel count and a longer length lens.
It is impossible to go into all the details here, you need to attend an education session to get into details. BUT not all of these are any use as they are run by people who have little idea on the subject.
Regarding people reading the specs being important, it is ONLY a benefit if they actually know what they mean.

[stihl88]

A lot of the "blah-blahs" do NOT matter, as some, such as the very low FPA sensitivity figures are BS. Even the companies that manufacture them will tell you that. The great low figures can be obtained by testing at non industry standards !!
12 micron pixels do not give you a better overall image than 17 microns regardless of what some seem to think. You need to actually know how it all works. Smaller FPA size, regardless of pixel size will give greater optical magnification with any given focal length lens. You are still better off with a larger pixel count and a longer length lens.
It is impossible to go into all the details here, you need to attend an education session to get into details. BUT not all of these are any use as they are run by people who have little idea on the subject.
Regarding people reading the specs being important, it is ONLY a benefit if they actually know what they mean.

Yeah absolutely agree, it's a paradox and rabbit holt topic.

As a rough guide in todays market here is generally where thermals are at

Higher End
In general the greater the core size (640x), greater the pixel pitch (17um), lower the thermal sensitivity (NETD <25mK), greater the framerate (50hz) larger the germanium lens (50mm) the greater the cost and physical size of the unit.

Middle End
Somewhere in the middle would be 320x core, 12um pixel pitch, NETD <25-30mk, 50hz framerate and 35-45mm objective lens. This will meet most requirements and keeps a bit more coin in our back pocket and physical unit size will be smaller

Lower End
To keep costs down we reduce the core size (320x), lower the pixel pitch (12um), increase the thermal sensitivity (<50mk), lower the framerate (25hz) and shrink the lens (25mm) the visual quality will be poorer but physical unit size will be smaller.

Take the $23,000 Infiray Rico RS75 for example, it has a whopping core size of (1280x) but it's pixel pitch is 12um which keeps physical size down (clearly cost wasn't a factor in this model) however 17um would have allowed much more light in but the core would be almost twice the size and objective lens much larger (maybe 100mm? that's a lot of Ge) Its thermal sensitivity <25mk which is what helps counteract the smaller 12um pixel pitch and the 12um pixel pitch is what helps keep the core and objective lens size down hence the somewhat paradox effect at play.

3-sensoriai-1220x360-1.png (13.44 KiB) Viewed 7243 times

Pulsar covers the topic reasonably well https://pulsar-nv.com/journal/pixel-pitch-explained-12-%C2%B5m-vs-17-%C2%B5m/#:~:text=The%20sensors%20have%20the%20same,NETD%20%3C40%20mK).

[niteowl]

Yes a rough guide it is. I think you need to do some research.

[mchughcb]

A lot of the "blah-blahs" do NOT matter, as some, such as the very low FPA sensitivity figures are BS. Even the companies that manufacture them will tell you that. The great low figures can be obtained by testing at non industry standards !!
12 micron pixels do not give you a better overall image than 17 microns regardless of what some seem to think. You need to actually know how it all works. Smaller FPA size, regardless of pixel size will give greater optical magnification with any given focal length lens. You are still better off with a larger pixel count and a longer length lens.
It is impossible to go into all the details here, you need to attend an education session to get into details. BUT not all of these are any use as they are run by people who have little idea on the subject.
Regarding people reading the specs being important, it is ONLY a benefit if they actually know what they mean.

Yeah absolutely agree, it's a paradox and rabbit holt topic.

As a rough guide in todays market here is generally where thermals are at

Higher End
In general the greater the core size (640x), greater the pixel pitch (17um), lower the thermal sensitivity (NETD <25mK), greater the framerate (50hz) larger the germanium lens (50mm) the greater the cost and physical size of the unit.

Middle End
Somewhere in the middle would be 320x core, 12um pixel pitch, NETD <25-30mk, 50hz framerate and 35-45mm objective lens. This will meet most requirements and keeps a bit more coin in our back pocket and physical unit size will be smaller

Lower End
To keep costs down we reduce the core size (320x), lower the pixel pitch (12um), increase the thermal sensitivity (<50mk), lower the framerate (25hz) and shrink the lens (25mm) the visual quality will be poorer but physical unit size will be smaller.

Take the $23,000 Infiray Rico RS75 for example, it has a whopping core size of (1280x) but it's pixel pitch is 12um which keeps physical size down (clearly cost wasn't a factor in this model) however 17um would have allowed much more light in but the core would be almost twice the size and objective lens much larger (maybe 100mm? that's a lot of Ge) Its thermal sensitivity <25mk which is what helps counteract the smaller 12um pixel pitch and the 12um pixel pitch is what helps keep the core and objective lens size down hence the somewhat paradox effect at play.

3-sensoriai-1220x360-1.png

Pulsar covers the topic reasonably well https://pulsar-nv.com/journal/pixel-pitch-explained-12-%C2%B5m-vs-17-%C2%B5m/#:~:text=The%20sensors%20have%20the%20same,NETD%20%3C40%20mK).

I've looked through the RS75 and see it in action. Personally I think its it not the best spend for $.

[Shootermick]

IMG_3478.jpeg (34.9 KiB) Viewed 7184 times

After playing around before I mounted it, spotting stuff outside for a couple of nights it seems to be pretty decent. I think the built in rangefinder will be well worth it.
I had it mounted on a Lithgow in the shop before I bought it, so I was well aware of the height and that a cheek riser would be needed.
So, any advice on cheek risers? Just a padded velcro wrap around job, a Kydex? Victor Company make one that looks good, but keeping in mind that it will no doubt have to be removed to take the bolt out.

[mchughcb]

Bradley cheek risers

[Shootermick]

Bradley cheek risers

I’ve seen them. Bit of a hybrid between a kydex type but held on with velco straps. Pricey though.
Good bit of kit?
Even though the rifle only has a plastic stock, I’m still not too keen on drilling holes if I don’t have to.

[mchughcb]

Good and expensive. 1.5 inch Max rise

[Midwest2023]

What have you mounted your panther on?

I've just bought the panther pq35 2.0 to mount to a Tika T3 chambered in .243

Just wondering best range to zero and how to work out holdover on the rececticle

Anyone out there swapping between rifles and using just the saved profiles without re zeroing each time, do they really retain accuracy.

[Cactus]

Hi guys
I have both the rl 42 and the Hikmicro ph 50 lrf. The rl 42 I bought a year ago and my mate and I used it together would have shot about 100 pigs with it thus far . Have a 4 base mag on the 380 sensor it is not often we use the zoom for shooting purposes only for ID as we have a monocular setup in our hunting vehicle via a 9 inch screen ( the monocular older 250 sensor)
To me 4 power works well as we can’t afford the 640s at the moment and find the base mag and extra optic zoom more important.
The 2 scopes side by side in the back yard I think the infiray was slightly better, but the backyard is not the field so am looking forward to taking the Hikmicro out in the paddock.
The added bonus is the new update for the Hikmicro has a ballistic calculator and seeing that I have a few small properties that I also hunt on I like to use my blackout and subsonic loads , but yet to test this out
Someone mentioned how was the rl 42 on dismount and mounting I found it always was 95% and totally acceptable for hunting. Was swapping between a .223 and a 300 blackout with no problem in profiles matching zeros , unless you forget to select the right profile . Which I did when I swapped it to my REM .260 a few weeks ago . After taking 30 mins to walk up on a mob of pigs and firing my first shot at a stationary pig which missed , then missed the next 3 that we’re running , 1 hr later my mate did the same . It was on the wrong rifle profile and shooting 1 metre low . I would have been better off not aiming.
Hikmicro owners update there panther lrf ph and pq models and see how the new ballistic calculator goes .

[Billo]

Hey Cactus the rl42 certainly produces a decent picture quality according to youtube, I wish I could have found 1 locally in stock to test. It seems Hik Micro certainly are getting there stock out into the retail space with the latest series and having tested a mates PQ50L 2.0 in the field it became an easy choice for me to go with a Hik Micro

I ended up choosing a Thunder TQ35 2.0 (640 sensor & 20 MK), I don't need the Laser finder the more expansive Panthers have and FOV is something I recognized as being pretty important on my Pig hunting blocks, a low 1.82 base mag also a no brainer. Compact and light 500gr weight just also a plus.

[Shootermick]

What have you mounted your panther on?

I've just bought the panther pq35 2.0 to mount to a Tika T3 chambered in .243

Just wondering best range to zero and how to work out holdover on the rececticle

Anyone out there swapping between rifles and using just the saved profiles without re zeroing each time, do they really retain accuracy.

My Panther is a PH50L, it was on my Lithgow 223. Only sighted it in at 80 metres, I know it’s not far, but you can get in pretty close with a thermal.
I’ve just moved it to my Ruger 243, and I’m hoping that I can move it between the two rifles, choose the saved profile for the rifle and still have zero.
But I haven’t moved it back to the 223 yet, so I can’t answer that question at the moment.

[Wyliecoyote]

I think it is very easy to get lost in the numbers in threads like this where someone is looking for advice on a thermal rifle sight. My view is that the sight is the endgame, the last part used to achieve the desired outcome. Having owned every brand from FLIR, Pulsar, Thermtech, Night Tech and others including the dreaded ATN, the only thing that is really relevant is that it holds zero. The image quality may or may not be of any great importance. Let me explain why.
You cannot stalk across country on an overcast moonless night using any thermal scope mounted to a rifle no matter what its cost, image quality, pixel count or core size is. But you can with the rifle in a biathlon sling and a good thermal monocular.
The next limiting factor on thermals that have base magnifications of 4x and above is field of view. This is why I only advise a base of 1.5x to 2.5x because you do need that field of view when engaging animals on the run in close scrub at close range and makes life easier if the sight is the only source used to scan ground with. I will always advise a minimum FOV of at least 14 degrees where a 4x base magnification on many current thermals may not get you half that. By now you should see where this is heading.

The best advise I can give doing this since the days when thermal anything was hard to get and very expensive is to spend the money on a very good monocular, a lead and a powerbank that can run it for days. A LRF version is very useful. This is the device where the dollars need to be spent as it will find the game, get a range for you and help you stalk to within a comfortable shooting range, as mentioned, on an overcast moonless night. The rifle sight is just there to be turned on for the shot so its capabilities beyond holding zero and maybe taking a video are really quite irrelevant beyond flashing the price tag at the range when sighting it in. One charge on my sights last the entire shooting trip as they only have to perform for a few minutes. But the monocular has multiple powerbanks as it stays on all night and only gets turned off when we get to bed near sunrise.

Now this does all depend on the type of hunting one intends on doing and the above description is mine where we hunt boars and stags across country because unfortunately neither stand 50 meters off the tracks where we go. We follow river systems for miles and across black soil flats at night as this is where the trophy boars wander alone and totally oblivious to anything. There is nothing like following a big old boar at 3am to see what he does, what he eats and where he's going. But shooting at range over a rabbit warren from a stationary position is very different where clarity and good resolution is very useful on small targets and field of view is less important. A monocular is less important in this instance.

A thermal sight is very useful, opens up a whole new style of hunting and will certainly wreck your sleep pattern. But there will come a time when you realise that scanning ground and trying to cover ground with just a rifle sight really sucks. Every owner of a thermal sight will either get a monocular or will want one. Guaranteed that you will see at least twice the number of game animals with one than without.

[Larry]

What have you mounted your panther on?

I've just bought the panther pq35 2.0 to mount to a Tika T3 chambered in .243

Just wondering best range to zero and how to work out holdover on the rececticle

Anyone out there swapping between rifles and using just the saved profiles without re zeroing each time, do they really retain accuracy.

My Panther is a PH50L, it was on my Lithgow 223. Only sighted it in at 80 metres, I know it’s not far, but you can get in pretty close with a thermal.
I’ve just moved it to my Ruger 243, and I’m hoping that I can move it between the two rifles, choose the saved profile for the rifle and still have zero.
But I haven’t moved it back to the 223 yet, so I can’t answer that question at the moment.

Its not so much about the scope and more about the mounting hardware. I have a NV scope that I swap and the saved settings work well and put me back near the target each time but not exact. There is just too much wriggle room in the rail and rings with each new attachment.

[Cactus]

As others have said, a monocular is your first purchase in a thermal device unless your gun is attached to a weather balloon. By the time you see something through your thermal scope attached to your rifle you will be so fatigued you will miss the shot .

[Shootermick]

As others have said, a monocular is your first purchase in a thermal device unless your gun is attached to a weather balloon. By the time you see something through your thermal scope attached to your rifle you will be so fatigued you will miss the shot .

I bought a scope first. A couple of weeks later I was back for a monocular. $$$!!!

[Blr243]

That’s exactly what I did. I actually remember the exact paddock I was in when I knew this wasn’t working out. some time during the night , walking from west to east , scanning with the rifle but it was physically demanding and I was not scanning often enough . I knew I needed a scanner so the first thing I did when I reteurned to Bris was grab a good set of Binos

[Cactus]

Yep either way you end up with a thermal scope and a monocular because they are so much better to hunt with than the previous technology. I wasted a bit of $$ on a infrared scope after I bought my monocular, lucky it wasn’t to bad $800 . I should not have been such a tight arse in the first place . My hunting partner and I then went halves in a InfiRay rl 42 , and we couldn’t stop smiling for days . He bought me out a few weeks ago and I bought the panther th50 lrf as we really needed a range finder. We will the retire the small monocular ( this is set up on our hunting vehicle via a cable to a screen) and use one of scopes as a spotter then upgrade to a larger sensor.

[stihl88]

Another option is to mount your Thermal using QD return to zero mounts, although not as nice as a monocular it can be used as initial scanner then re-mounted to the firearms in less than 5 seconds with return to zero.