If rings are a bit high

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If rings are a bit high

Post by sally-bee » 19 Feb 2015, 7:31 pm

Hi guys,

Simple question, so what if your scope rings are a bit too high?

If the lowest you can go is low but your store doesn't have so you go medium, what does it matter if your scope is a cm higher?
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Re: If rings are a bit high

Post by Chronos » 19 Feb 2015, 7:39 pm

The most important thing with scope mounting is that your eye lines up with the scope. forget all the talk about getting the scope as low as possible, it's mostly an american wives tail that stems from the days when they started putting scopes on iron sighted rifles.

Close your eyes and put your head on the stock in a comfortable position and open your eyes, you'll soon find out if your rings are too high or even too low

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Re: If rings are a bit high

Post by Westy » 19 Feb 2015, 7:55 pm

X 2 Steve , I have a head like a cardboard box so high rings are the best this boofheaded Bastard!!!!!
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Re: If rings are a bit high

Post by Warrigul » 20 Feb 2015, 12:32 pm

Chronos wrote:The most important thing with scope mounting is that your eye lines up with the scope. forget all the talk about getting the scope as low as possible, it's mostly an american wives tail that stems from the days when they started putting scopes on iron sighted rifles.

Close your eyes and put your head on the stock in a comfortable position and open your eyes, you'll soon find out if your rings are too high or even too low

Chronos


I can't believe someone who claims to shoot long distance actually wrote that? As close to boreline as possible is required to minimise cant angle windage error at distance. You should never go higher than you need to clear bolt/barrel/action or ejection.

High rings are a pain in the arse on a .22 at close ranges as well but you can live with them if needed..

Where possible you don't use the mount height to suit your eyes, the rifle simply doesn't fit you properly if you need to raise the scope to get a consistant sight picture. Improper fit is the biggest cause of problem recoil.
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Re: If rings are a bit high

Post by Hinky » 20 Feb 2015, 3:21 pm

If effects your adjustments over distance as Warrigul said.

It's not the end of the world though and whether there is any real impact on you depends on your shooting. You can still zero it for any distance.

What're you doing? What ranges?
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Re: If rings are a bit high

Post by Chronos » 20 Feb 2015, 4:39 pm

Who ever said I claim to shoot at long range? Talking out of your arse again worrygurl?

I don't give two 88888 what some grumpy old part time roo shooter from the arse end of nowhere thinks, having your scope mounted 1 ring size higher makes ZERO difference in 99% of shooting. If you're that close to the limit on scope adjustments because you're shooting "at long range" then you need to have a good hard look at your set up anyway. Setting the scope 10mm higher will simply move your point of impact down 10mm at 100m, 200m and even 1000m. it's not a factor of angles, the angles are the same

THE most important thing for the op is the have the scope set at the correct height for their eye on their stock.

while it's true mounting a scope higher can slightly change the perceived point of impact and flight path of a bullet but not always for the negative but it's more important that the scope height allows you to get a repeatable view into the scope. For some shooters an adjustable cheek piece can help lift the eye to meet a large objective lens scope and as i said in my previous post if you were fitting a scope to your iron sighted rifle like thousands of shooters did as optics became more affordable after WWII then it was important to mount the scope as low as possible because the rifle stocks were shaped in a way that put the shooters eye low and inline with the rear sight on the action, not 1 1/2' higher like a modern stock


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Re: If rings are a bit high

Post by Chronos » 20 Feb 2015, 4:57 pm

Anyway my point sally-Bee is the ring height will make very little difference to how the gun performs.

Here's a comparison for you using some .223 factory ammo and two ring heights, 1.5" from bore center to scope center and 1.9". thats about a 10mm difference like in your example

Sorry each sample is two pics

Image

Image

Image

Image

you can see that if you zero the gun at 100y the difference at 300y the difference in drop is under 1/2MOA but the advantage actually goes to the higher scope rings (-8.2" to -9") you'll actually see that the difference in drop stays around the 3/8moa mark through the entire range, guess what that's about 10mm, your ring height difference

Of course none of this makes any difference because if someone plans on shooting anything at longer ranges they should be getting data in the way of velocity and actual drop in the way of scope settings before hand. Also all the ballistic calculators allow you to set your sight height before doing any calculations. Remember ring height doesn't change the trajectory or your bullet, just how it's perceived by you

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Re: If rings are a bit high

Post by Warrigul » 20 Feb 2015, 5:07 pm

Ya know what, you are more than a little screwed in your theories there.

You repeatably come out with these ridiculous statements then when someone refutes them turn abusive.

If you don't know what cant angle windage error is then you should probably leave it right there as you are going to get slaughtered.

You want some proof? Do ya, do ya???? :crazy:
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Re: If rings are a bit high

Post by Warrigul » 20 Feb 2015, 5:10 pm

Chronos wrote:Anyway my point sally-Bee is the ring height will make very little difference to how the gun performs.

Here's a comparison for you using some .223 factory ammo and two ring heights, 1.5" from bore center to scope center and 1.9". thats about a 10mm difference like in your example


Of course none of this makes any difference because if someone plans on shooting anything at longer ranges they should be getting data in the way of velocity and actual drop in the way of scope settings before hand. Also all the ballistic calculators allow you to set your sight height before doing any calculations. Remember ring height doesn't change the trajectory or your bullet, just how it's perceived by you

Chronos


Now recalculate all those figures with 4 degrees cant, the usual amount most shooters apply when they are sure they are level.

I pretty much expected you to go to a table etc, in essesnce that is all you are capable of, not real shooting.
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Re: If rings are a bit high

Post by Chronos » 20 Feb 2015, 5:18 pm

well it would be nice if you actually shared some information on this forum instead of just trolling the same people week to week and never actually answering any of the forums threads with real answers. there's a reason my sig line says see contradiction below. because guaranteed you'll pop up to argue what i've said

you claim to be some kind of all knowing guru on most topics but i never read anything from you i can't hear from the grumpy old fullbore shooters down at the range

take your BS and go play on facebook

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Re: If rings are a bit high

Post by Warrigul » 20 Feb 2015, 5:19 pm

YOu know those shots at 300 when you were so sure everything was right then there was a flyer, I have seen it time and again the rifle isn't level.

Amazing what you come up with when you fit a spirit level. The higher the scope off the centerline of the bore the worse it gets hence good practice dictates you mount as close to the bore as possible, not be guided by the leftovers from the WW2 era and what someone's auntie said you you.

For illustration:


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Most pople don't realise how far they tilt a rifle, especially under pressure, it can be a lot and often explains the unexplainable. I averaged a couple of extra vee bulls simply by fitting a level.

I even have one on my old roo rifle for when I am out the back of nowhere...................
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Re: If rings are a bit high

Post by Warrigul » 20 Feb 2015, 5:20 pm

Chronos wrote:well it would be nice if you actually shared some information on this forum instead of just trolling the same people week to week and never actually answering any of the forums threads with real answers. there's a reason my sig line says see contradiction below. because guaranteed you'll pop up to argue what i've said

you claim to be some kind of all knowing guru on most topics but i never read anything from you i can't hear from the grumpy old fullbore shooters down at the range

take your BS and go play on facebook

Chronos


Now please explain away the above post.

The answers I give are accurate, yours usually are not or at best are second or third hand.

A very poor way for people to learn.

I have never actually claimed to be a guru, I have simply refuted your posts repeatably with proof and it upsets you.

Anyway I am going out to tea.

I still like your greatest statement "all carbon steels are brittle", doesn't bode well for the springs in our cars does it?
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Re: If rings are a bit high

Post by Westy » 20 Feb 2015, 5:30 pm

Warrigul wrote:I can't believe someone who claims to shoot long distance actually wrote that? As close to boreline as possible is required to minimise cant angle windage error at distance. You should never go higher than you need to clear bolt/barrel/action or ejection.

High rings are a pain in the arse on a .22 at close ranges as well but you can live with them if needed..

Where possible you don't use the mount height to suit your eyes, the rifle simply doesn't fit you properly if you need to raise the scope to get a consistant sight picture. Improper fit is the biggest cause of problem recoil.


Obviously W you don't shoot a whole lot of Metal Shillioute then as anyone who does knows using a .22 @ 40 60 &78.50 and 100m always has high rings to stop you tilting your head over the action to shoot???? :drinks: :thumbsup: :drinks:

Stand up straight and bring the rifle to you was what we were always taught???
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Re: If rings are a bit high

Post by Warrigul » 20 Feb 2015, 5:32 pm

Only pistol silhouette
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Re: If rings are a bit high

Post by Westy » 20 Feb 2015, 5:37 pm

Warrigul wrote:Only pistol silhouette


K now that's some serious fun!!!!Shot it last Sunday!!!!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Re: If rings are a bit high

Post by handofcod » 20 Feb 2015, 6:57 pm

I do the closed eyes thing to work out if the scope is the right height. If it's a bit high I but a buttstock cover on and if it's really high you can stuff some foam under the cover until the desired height is achieved.
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Re: If rings are a bit high

Post by Warrigul » 21 Feb 2015, 8:46 pm

You are still wrong.

(like you hurling abuse or name calling like a grade sixer is going to make me take you seriously)

Once again, you are still a twit, be a man and refute what I said with evidence.
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Re: If rings are a bit high

Post by Chronos » 21 Feb 2015, 8:55 pm

Worrygurl, you're rides here

Image

I'm done here. I've given my answer to this thread. as long as the op's rings put the scope at the correct height for their eye on that rifle that's all that matters. A new shooter has enough to worry about with out worrying if a .4moa change in line of sight to bore may effect POI at long range

Sally-bee, buy the rings that you can get and go shooting, then in 50 years when you're a self proclaimed expert like this goose you can tell everyone how they should shoot and why they need a level on their scope to shoot a 5" bull at 300m


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Re: If rings are a bit high

Post by Westy » 22 Feb 2015, 6:42 am

I can't believe all this agro here I'm bringing out the picture then!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: If rings are a bit high

Post by sally-bee » 23 Feb 2015, 7:54 am

Chronos wrote:Sorry each sample is two pics


I think I'm following :lol:
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Re: If rings are a bit high

Post by Aster » 23 Feb 2015, 8:06 am

Information replies left, deleted all the purely argumentative posts.

Hopefully Sally is satisfied with the answer and we can leave this now...
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Re: If rings are a bit high

Post by Warrigul » 24 Feb 2015, 3:47 pm

I have just been supplied the figures for a .223 with a 55 grainer at 200m

With the scope mounted 1.5" over the boreline the cant error at 5 degrees(whatr the average person still thinks is level) is 19mm windage either left or right depending on the hold and 16mm drop. (total possible group windage error-in addition to the rifles inherent accuracy- 40mm)

When you raise the scope to 2" above the bore line windage increases to 32mm error and 25mm drop (total possible group size increase of 64mm)error

So for 12mm increase in ring height you are blowing your groups out almost an extra inch at 200m.

Not insignificant, I wasn't expecting it to be as much as that but ballistics programs don't lie apparently(I am sure they do, this wasn't my program so if anyone wants to do the math feel free), some people would spend a lot of money trying to eliminate that amount of error but no one sensible would ignore it.

Keep rings as low as possible and try to shoot with a level rifle remembering that 5 degrees of cant is usually undetectable by the average person.
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Re: If rings are a bit high

Post by sally-bee » 25 Feb 2015, 2:44 pm

I'll take your word for it.

Wouldn't know where to start on checking the math :lol:
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